I'm Intrepid and I'm appearently a racist.....

Truthseeka or anyone - What's wrong with abandoning a culture? What if a person doesn't like the culture they grow up in and finds another one more appealing? Should he hold himself back from pursuing a culture he thinks he might be more happy in?

Koka - There are non-black people who don't know anything about black people, black culture, etc. Maybe they were born in Iowa and lived in PoDunk their whole lives. I don't know. Sometimes when they ask an innocent question, it may sound racist, but it's not. They just want to know and have never really thought about it before.

I see you and Griff have talked this out and come to terms, which is great. I have mad respect for both of you for doing so, but I'm just saying... Sometimes people can say something or ask a question out of genuine curiosity. Nothing more.

Intrepid Thank you for this thread! I think we all really need it. I love you, man!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Sometimes people can say something or ask a question out of genuine curiosity. Nothing more.

Yes, I have asked a few myself.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Respectfully, I disagree. I am not asking you to feel guilty.

I'm all about self-examination and analysis. So I wanted to check and see if I was 'fantasizing ' about this guilt thing.

Here are some of the things you've said about guilt in threads that I've been involved in. Most of them were directed at me, but some were about other white people.

18)To hear others say they don't have guilt about the negative parts of your heritiage and cultural history.

Sweeping racist behavior under the rug is what a lot of people of your ilk says....along with not feeling any guilt.

As long as the lesson of "not feeling guilt" is taught over and over, you and your ilk are breeding a generation of kids who can say and do anything derogatory to a person of color without feeling a sense of shame or remorse.

Because some posters on this thread don't want to "feel guilty" about racism.

I've personally learned that "not feeling guilt" makes you feel a lot better

But forgetting about what Black people experienced … and not feeling guilt about it is considered by some as part and parcel of the course.

If you don't feel any guilt here about having "white privilege" … there is a definite problem afoot.

I wonder if someone who doesn't "feel any guilt" would say the same things to a Jewish person that they would say to Black people?

How does that weigh in with our discussion about … the ability not to feel guilt?

Does he act like he feels any "guilt" over the past?

Furthermore, he doesn't feel any guilt over what has occurred to Blacks. His reasoning might fit in with some people here when they don't want to "feel guilt" over what has happened.

By only taking the "I feel no guilt route", it is quite apathetic. No way around it.

Some whites have developed their lack of guilt feelings,

some whites have developed a sense of superiority and licked that "white guilt" clean away

the person who does the "nasty attack" often gets of "Scot free" without feeling any recourse or guilt about it. In fact, they get defended and patted on the back for it every time.

As a result, the motion picture buries the problem and lays the blame elsewhere while giving white movie goers a feeling of "not having guilt"

But for the white movie goers, the same scene can pass by and feel that they've learned nothing, except to throw that guilt away and feel happy that it isn't "their type of racism" anymore.

No, I don't want courtesy from you because I learned long ago that you have no guilt or manners for what you do.

And this one about Miss Scarlett O’Hara herself…

And she sure as heck didn't feel any guilt.

And in this very thread

Especially with no empathy along with your admitted lack of guilt.

Since you don't feel any guilt and you don't care, no.

You can say all you want about not having to have any permission or guilt to feel the way you do.

Now, if I have gotten the wrong impression about your desire for me (and other white people) to feel guilty, I REALLY don't think it's my misunderstanding.

You have. Because in all those times, I addressed the fact that you "felt no guilt". I also wrote that one should "throw white guilt away". I know you don't remember that, but that was in the "Racism is taboo" thread.

But, you know what? You can think what you want. You always twist my words and use them for lies. You can never make a straight answer in your life.

About the comments of guilt, I said that in response to your apathy of having a lack of conscience about what has happened in terms of racism. I also wrote of you not understanding what happens as a result of institutional racism. It had nothing about telling anyone, let alone yourself, about feeling guilt. In fact, I don't care about your guilt. I care about your conscience.

But knowing how you've twisted and lied about my words and responses, I know you have none--not even to make the peace. You have no empathy.

But yes, you definitely have gotten the wrong impression from my quotes. But I don't expect you to care. Because you don't.

As for "talking it out", you're right. There's nothing more to say, because everytime I do say something you throw it in my face.

Yeah, you're a piece of work to the bitter end. :shk:







[edit on 9-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Nygdan

I mean, why, in the world, should anyone have any sympathy for whites who feel that they are being oppressed?? And its not like racism is 'dead' amoung whites now anyway.

I mean, why, in the world, should anyone have any sympathy for blacks who feel that they are being oppressed?? And its not like racism is 'dead' amoung blacks now anyway.

It works both ways. Almost every ethnic culture enslaved another, based on that fact. So why don't we continue to do so?

Because it doesn't fly in today's society. If no one should have sympathy for one ethnic group, no one should have sympathy for ANY ethnic group, including there own. It's all about respect.

If your father robbed banks for a living, should we keep you and your continued off-spring in jail because of it?! No? Its not fair?

Well it's not fair to judge people by what their ancestors did either.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I said that in response to your apathy of having a conscience and not understanding what happens as a result of institutional racism. It had nothing about telling anyone, let alone yourself, about feeling guilt.

Could you break this down in a few sentences as THIS may be the core of what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne


If your father robbed banks for a living, should we keep you and your continued off-spring in jail because of it?! No? Its not fair?

Well it's not fair to judge people by what their ancestors did either.

BINGO! This is what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by intrepid

Could you break this down in a few sentences as THIS may be the core of what I'm talking about.

I just popped in to reply to BH. However, I'll try to do this a little later tonight when I have a little bit more time. I will definitely elaborate on this with the hopes that it will help others to understand.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
If your father robbed banks for a living, should we keep you and your continued off-spring in jail because of it?! No? Its not fair?

Depends, are the kids still living off the proceeds of that bank job?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by ceci2006
I said that in response to your apathy of having a conscience and not understanding what happens as a result of institutional racism. It had nothing about telling anyone, let alone yourself, about feeling guilt.

Could you break this down in a few sentences as THIS may be the core of what I'm talking about.

Oh no doubt it will be along the lines of...

We can't get jobs because whites won't hire us!

or

We can't get a good education because whites won't let us in their schools!

or

Black don't make enough money because white folk make more then us!

Never mind the fact i have never seen a White Scholarship, nor have I ever seen someone hiring whites to fill QUOTAS ..

Oh how the system keeps ya down, yet all those who break free are ignored by your race.

There are more poor whites in America then poor blacks... does this mean that there is institutional racism for poor whites to?

And of course my biggest argument would be.....

Asians. No problems from the Asian community.. not many at all asking for special treatment? Indians are filling more and more high paying jobs that whites dont seem to be able to do (like comp. programing, doctors)

Hispanics. This I find funny actually..

Whats the problem with Hispanics in this country? they are taking jobs. Why? People hire them. In the South the new thing is blacks and Hispanics going at it because people are firing blacks and hiring Hispanics.

Perhaps if blacks stopped blaming every one but them selves, there would be far fewer problems. Now I know Cici and any one like her would ever admitt the flaws of their race which just might be the underlying problem, and that no one is holding you back at all but instead giving you TO MANY boost that perhaps there is a sense of dependency.

Originally posted by Koka

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
If your father robbed banks for a living, should we keep you and your continued off-spring in jail because of it?! No? Its not fair?

Depends, are the kids still living off the proceeds of that bank job?

Are you saying that those that didn't commit a crime should be incarcerated, ie:held guilty?

Originally posted by interestedalways
Calling someone a racist is no different than calling them another insultive name and is against the principles of ATS.

We don't know who is or isn't what, so get over it and move on to something more productive and stop calling each other names.

An individuals beliefs are their own and what each chooses to share in a public forum should be taken in it's written context and not judged as "racist" or "mean" or "ugly", etc. These are judgements of one's character and aren't usually useful on this site unless being used to expose a lie or something like that.


Dig deeper if you want to make someone look bad.

Had someone actually CALLED intrepid "RACIST" then I would whole-heartedly say that this post is approapriate. Its certainly good advice and something to adhere to for all posts on ATS However, in this circumstance no-one actually labelled Intrepid as a racist or directly called Intrepid such. As the very first post suggests on here. Intrepid was asked to consider another point of view. I am a little bit over this thread as now I just feel as tho it's tunring into one of those historical slinging matches.

FINAL POST ON THIS THREAD - Thanks

No, I think that the analogy doesn't suit the argument regarding the carrying of guilt. I'm sure there must be a better one, not that I think we need it, because you have made your point time and time again, you're just having problems getting people to agree with it.

We seem to spend more time arguing than thinking.

Originally posted by foxywhiskers
I just feel as tho it's tunring into one of those historical slinging matches.

I think you get the point exactly.

Originally posted by Koka
No, I think that the analogy doesn't suit the argument regarding the carrying of guilt. I'm sure there must be a better one, not that I think we need it, because you have made your point time and time again, you're just having problems getting people to agree with it.

I'd reread the thread if you think that. Without preconceptions.

We seem to spend more time arguing than thinking.

And THAT is the problem, let's reverse it.

Originally posted by Koka

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
If your father robbed banks for a living, should we keep you and your continued off-spring in jail because of it?! No? Its not fair?

Depends, are the kids still living off the proceeds of that bank job?

Are you implying that the children have committed a crime, and should be held accountable? The determining factor for what is & is not a crime is culpability. Was there intent to do harm? Robbing a bank obviously comes with a degree of culpability. Where is the intent here?

I am really looking forward to you elaborating on this one.

Anyways, I really find myself in a sticky situation. I have read this thread very extensively. (Three or four times actually) On one hand I think we have Benevolent Heretic. Her thoughts and opinions come loud & clear. I find myself in agreement with every character. But then we have Nygdan. His words speak volumes. So I find myself trying to juggle what it is that I think. And this subject, as anything else in life, does not have one answer.

I think that there are cultures that have had a very painful history. Restitution is impossible. We can not fix the damage that has been done. So while some of us take offense to being slandered as a racist, others will think that it is certainly the lesser of two evils. If we overtly take offense, is that a problem? If we shut our mouths and ignore the slander, is that a problem? As it has been said time and time again, we can not please everyone. So I think at the end of the day, you need to do what you need to do.

So between Nygdan & BH, I find myself attempting to come to some sort of conclusion. I think it is important for individuals to stand up against racism. Even though we are enduring what others have in the past, we are suffering for something that is undeserving. Race, in my opinion, is an insignificant detail. Those who wish to play the card are merely attempting to victimize themself and are not willing to accept the true reasoning for a reaction. Sometimes we need to look at ourselves rather than passing everyone off as a bigot.

But in the same breath, "we" as whites, should understand that we are not being faced with genocide, torture, or slavery. The extent of our suffering is emotional, which is far better than what others have been through. Even though it is wrong, it could be worse. Though I have already said otherwise, I think it is imperative that we do voice our disdain for these actions.

Very intresting so far. Looking forward to reading what others have to say.

Originally posted by chissler
Those who wish to play the card are merely attempting to victimize themself and are not willing to accept the true reasoning for a reaction. Sometimes we need to look at ourselves rather than passing everyone off as a bigot.

Exactly.

But in the same breath, "we" as whites, should understand that we are not being faced with genocide, torture, or slavery. The extent of our suffering is emotional, which is far better than what others have been through. Even though it is wrong, it could be worse.

Um, who has put Black people through this in your or my lifetime? I didn't and I won't feel guilty for past generations. That's my point.

To insert a much needed sports anology, this reminds me of the sports broadcasters that say, the San Franciso 49ers are 0-24 in their last 24 visits to Foxborough. No, each one of them teams that lost were a different team that should stand on their own footing. What I have done , and what others who share my race have done in the past, none of which are connected. We all stand alone on our own merit. Yes I am white, but I am not, nor anyone in my family, guilty of any racial discrimination.

So, I think I am getting your point intrepid, please correct me if I am misguided with the above statement.

I don't think it is a matter of feeling guilty though. I don't feel guilty for the actions of other in the past. I just try to be slightly emathetic to a culture's history. Emphasis here, culture's history. Not everyone is deserving of empathy, simply because they inherited an attribute that connects them to others that have been discriminated against.

[edit on 9-2-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by intrepid
I'd reread the thread if you think that. Without preconceptions.

Elaborate on my preconceptions, please.

Originally posted by Chissler
Are you implying that the children have committed a crime, and should be held accountable?

Of course not, they are now all grown up with there own kids, but grandad made more than enough from that caper from way back to set them up quite comfortably.

Why should they feel guilty, they didn't commit the crime?

Originally posted by ceci2006
I also wrote that one should "throw white guilt away". I know you don't remember that...

I do remember that. I came across several of those statements in my search. And that's what so confusing to me. But which should I believe? You're saying 2 different things. That I'm apathetic because I have no guilt and then that I shouldn't feel guilty. It's confusing to know what you mean sometimes.

Read over those quotes and tell me you weren't lambasting people who don't feel guilt over black people.

I don't care about your guilt. I care about your conscience.

I have a conscience. I know what's right and wrong. I have very high morals. If I do something wrong, I feel terrible. Even if it's accidently. If I get back a dime or $10 more change than I deserve, I return it. I don't lie. What area of my conscience exactly do you feel is lacking?

What have I misjudged as right or wrong?

You have no empathy.

That's simply not true. I am a very empathetic person in fact. I am compassionate and I feel bad for people who have been hurt. You're wrong about me.