I'm Intrepid and I'm appearently a racist.....

Originally posted by intrepid

Irrelevant ceci, we ALL know that racism exists, by every race.

Good. You've taken responsibility.

I wouldn't know, you've yet to address what I asked. "Conscience and paternalism". Now "responsibility"?

If you read closely what I've been trying to say, you would. But now you're "obfuscating".

No, I'm being succinct. GETTING TO THE POINT.

In your own mind.

You however are not and using a lot of words to say NOTHING.

Whatever.

You can say "whining", "desperate cries for attention", "obfuscation" (!?!), and "stepping from that cross".

But it says a lot when you use a lot of rhetoric instead of addressing the points I made, complete with a definition of guilt.

Nope, little rhetoric from me. I WANT to break this down, someone doesn't though.

I am breaking it down. But, out of courtesy, I will try in a future post to do it again instead of fighting with you over ticky tack issues.

BTW, what about this? Your words:

But it says a lot when you use a lot of rhetoric instead of addressing the points I made, complete with a definition of guilt.

I thought you didn't want me to feel guilt? Again your words:

I said that I didn't want anyone to feel guilty--from any race. When I tell my experiences and post my sources, I do it to make people aware that it happens, not to feed into the fears that "someone ought to feel guilty".

So which is it ceci, am I guilty or not?

Frankly, I don't care. Only you know whether you're guilty or not. I'm not going to put words in your mouth. I said it three times.

A lot of unanswered questions ceci. Do you want to step to the plate and answer them or continue this dance?

You're doing the dance here, not I. Don't accuse me of not stepping up to the plate.

I've said my peace. It's up to you to really try to make sense out of what I said instead of complain.

Guys, lets all remember that we're not here to attack each other. I know that we are discussing our personal thoughts, but lets remember that no one here is the enemy, we are all here to exchange ideas and perspectives.

SO lets all take it easy on each other.

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally posted by intrepidI wouldn't know, you've yet to address what I asked. "Conscience and paternalism". Now "responsibility"?

If you read closely what I've been trying to say, you would. But now you're "obfuscating".

These questions STILL remain unanswered. Why?

Originally posted by ceci2006I am breaking it down. But, out of courtesy, I will try in a future post to do it again instead of fighting with you over ticky tack issues.

I don't see this as "ticky tack". It's important imo. Why are you sidestepping?

I've said my peace. It's up to you to really try to make sense out of what I said instead of complain.

Yes, you've said your peace but you've said and answered NOTHING. Remember? "Conscience", "paternalism" and "responsibility"? And NO, it's up to YOU to stand up for your words. I've been BBQ'd for mine here and I stand behind them, will YOU?

And you, Intrepid, never answered my question.

I'm glad that you didn't, though. It's good to see you duck me; I guess now you can't really explain why you used my post. Good.

Now for more important points. I agree with y'all, ceci and HH, on the high quality of the program. I'm also going to read the Covenant, as well as send requests for interviews on it to talk shows (to Oprah, as the one lady suggested -damn I can't remember her name-Montel, and Tyra). Hell, I'll probably send requests to CNN ).

And yeah, Cordel West is a G. I didn't know who he was until today, but I'm DEFINITELY reading up on that guy. He illustrated his keen intellect with such force and power in his speech; it was amazing.

Can't thank you enough for that, HH.

Originally posted by truthseeka
And you, Intrepid, never answered my question.

I'm glad that you didn't, though. It's good to see you duck me; I guess now you can't really explain why you used my post. Good.

Yes I did, you didn't like the answer. Reword it if you think you'll get a different answer.

As to the rest............ off topic.

*Waiting on ceci's answers*

Ha.

Whatever makes you feel better. The fact that you blasted my post still takes merit from your thread. It MIGHT have looked better if you had just told your story. Too bad for you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I thought Obama was going to 'announce' on the Oprah show. Has he officially announced? If he did, then I guess he didn't do the Oprah show??

I don't know anything about Oprah, but, yes, he did announce today. I saw the speech on c-span. It was powerful and, judging by the people who called in, a lot of people were convinced.

Also, there's a thread about the announcement and its implications or whatever. Can Obama Overcome?

I did see some 'talking heads' discussing Obama's economic stand. He wants to keep 'the death tax' and he wants to roll back the tax cuts. That's about all anyone said they know about his economic platform.

Again, I have no idea. This is the best I can do- a link his website. They posted blurbs of his ideas, but nothing too extensive. I expect we'll find out more as his campaign progresses and we get closer to the election.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Not one speech, question or comment accused anyone of racism or branded anyone of "guilt"

You know, I hadn't noticed it, but you're right. They only mentioned white people once, when Sonia Sanchez, renowned poet, said, Notice that we haven't mentioned white people.

Oh, and in the first panel, Al Sharpton said, the CRM wasn't about us (black people) wanting to be integrated with white people. It was about us wanting the same quality of service for the same fee.

...in over five hours of The Black State of the Union, only those two mentions of white people.

Interesting.

Originally posted by Nygdan
we're not here to attack each other...lets remember that no one here is the enemy, we are all here to exchange ideas and perspectives.

I agree with the spirit of what you said, but you have to remember, this thread is actually about attacking each other, in the sense that intrepid felt attacked and then devoted a thread to it...so, I would think that all of this bickering constitutes the expected outcome. Of course, I could be mistaken.

HH,

Do you know if (and when) they'll re-air this? I'm in the middle of a poker game, so I can't look myself right now. Hell, I shouldn't even be on here right now...

As the OP may I ask how any of this is on topic?

Sure.

You won't get an answer from me, though.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Paternalistic racism implies that white people have the right to interfere in the lives of blacks for their own good and the power to define that good.

I have never interfered in the life of a black person, least of all you. Not only do I not have the power to interfere in your life. I have no idea who you are, where you live nor do I have any desire whatsoever to interfere in your life, nor the life of any black person. I don't want to have anything to do with your life or "your own good".

And the only power I have is to type words into this computer. You don't even have to read them if you don't want to.

I hope that clears it up for ya.

Moving on.

You know, it's really too bad that this one thread, originally about how white people feel when they get called racist, has been totally usurped and is now about what black people want, a black TV show, how black people feel and what black people think and desire from white people.

I would have thought that another thread could have been started to address those issues in relation or response to this thread. Or perhaps it could have been brought up in one of the numerous threads already in existence that are about the black perspective of racism.

But the subject of this thread is apparently highly uncomfortable for some people. It's almost like we (as white people) don't have a right to object to being called racist, simply because of the color of our skin. It's almost like we have no right to ask that we not be accused of something we're not. So it has been purposefully seized time and time again to talk about "black issues"...

It's an interesting observation, I think.

I have tried a couple times to bring this thread back around to the original subject, but it continues to be commandeered... but I try once again.

Oh, well...

Nygdan, sometimes your position frustrates me, but I'm really glad to have you be a voice of reason from your position on the fence.

You're right, BH.

This is the FIRST TIME a thread has gone off topic on ATS. Oh, the HORROR!!!!!!

here is my latest idea about this crap....

I am sick and tired of tiptoing arround people cause I might offend them. I just am not good at it. No I am not racist in the least I truly hate everyone equily. I think that everyone should be judged as an individual idiot and not as a special prized culture or race that I must cherish because if I happen to say something I might offend them.

Does anyone ever care that this eggshell walking might be offensive to me? No nobody cares because dang nabit im a white dude. So if I stand up for my rights as a human and not care what others think then I have to get labled a racist.

I am sick of this double standard. Commedians can make fun of my race, they can call each other the N word, they can claim all over the place racism but aparently I am the one that is wrong.

Huh?

What's a walking eggshell? Anyway, I don't know who asks you to tiptoe around them. You probably are seen as offensive to whoever asks you this. Why don't you just avoid these eggshells; it shouldn't be too hard for you.

Dang nabit...now THAT was funny.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Nope, didn't say that. What I said was that, even though racism is wrong on any level, how can whites expect any sympathy for the small amount of racism directed at them or for 'reverse racism', when they still hold the chains of power, and when they won't even respect blacks when they complain about the long term, near genocidal racism that was directed at them?

You are being overly dramatic here. There were incidents of lynching, etc., but nothing "near genocidal".

And this is not an attempt to minimize the suffering they went through, before anyone goes there. It's just a request to keep things in perspective.

If you want examples of genocide, history is full of them. But treatment of blacks in America does not qualify.

I dont' recall blacks creating a secret society that terrorized whites into moving out of their towns, insuinuated itself into government, organized mobs, dragged whites out of jails, and then publically murdered them. And thats just one small group of whites that did that.

That's right. That was just one small group of whites, from a small geographical section of the US. The overwhelming majority of whites did not do that.

ilandrah
Modern african americans don't know any more about slavery than modern whites do.

Thats simply incorrect. THe mere fact that slavery was made illegal a long time ago hardly means that that ended racism or the effects of slavery.

Stop right there. You are combining slavery and racism as if they were one and the same. They are not.

The federal government had to occupy the southern states to make sure that they didn't go back to their old nefarious ways, and even after reconstruction they still forced blacks into a near subhuman status through law.

This reinforces my assertion that these were the actions of a small portion of whites in a small geographical area.

The fact that the federal gov't. stepped in is proof that it was not condoned by most of America.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
if black people today 'feel' what it was like to have been hauled off in chains, why can't I, for the life of me, 'feel' what it was like to do the hauling?

You can. Infact, you do. You experience the results of that every day, you live in a country that was built on the backs of black slaves. YOu operate in an economy that simply wouldnt' exist as it does today were it not for the labour of black slaves. The legal and open oppression of blacks in the past created the exact social-economic and demographic world that you and I operate in and take advantage of every day.

That is patently false. This country was not built upon the backs of black slaves, at least not exclusively or significantly. They contributed to a small segment of the economy for a short period of time, until industrialization and Eli Whitney changed their world.

They did not build the railroads, the highways, or the infrastructure. They were not the majority in the coal mines and steel mills, nor in the breadbasket of America.

Once again, please do not exaggerate the circumstances.




My final statement is going to be misconstrued as rude, crude, and downright insensitive. But I need to ask: What exactly do blacks want from whites? To acknowledge that slavery happened and that racism exists? Fine, it happened, it does.

But I think that some here want white people to live their lives wearing sackcloth and ashes, and to constantly and repeatedly acknowledge that slavery existed. They want it to be the focus of everybody's lives. Sorry, that's unreasonable, and it's not going to happen. There are some who want to live their lives like this is the only important thing on earth that we need to pay attention to, but it is not. And the more that it is shoved in people's faces, the lower it slips on their list of priorities.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
this thread is actually about attacking each other

I disagree. I think it's about white people being falsely accused by blacks of being racist. Intrepid doesn't mention "attack" in his OP. His proposed alternate title was "Sins of the Father and the Grandfather and his Father....."

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm tired, DAMN tired of being accused of being a racist because of the colour of MY skin.

Nothing about attacking each other. More about the unfairness of him (and other white people) being blamed for the "sins of the father". But there's no justification for this phenomenon, so the topic has been avoided, changed, made light of, denied, commandeered, invalidated, laughed at and glossed over... by the black participants, instead of directly addressed.

I wonder if that's because it's just too uncomfortable for some black people to see that they might actually be the ones in this situation who are being unfair to white people by calling them racist when they aren't.

It would ruin the whole paradigm of "black victim of racism" to have white people being the victim of black people, wouldn't it? So, yeah, as I see it, it's safer for black participants here to change the subject time and time again instead of address it.

But that's really ok with me. I'm free to participate or not, to start another thread or not. I just think it's a pretty interesting bit of behavior.

You see, I love to study human behavior.

That's not true, becky.

Slavery was the BIGGEST component of the American economy for a while. Without slavery, the southern US in particular would have been FLAT BROKE! Why do you think southern whites fought so hard to keep slavery in their econo my?

Nygdan isn't being overdramatic. You're trying to minimize how much the US benefitted from slavery.

Originally posted by truthseeka
That's not true, becky.

Slavery was the BIGGEST component of the American economy for a while. Without slavery, the southern US in particular would have been FLAT BROKE! Why do you think southern whites fought so hard to keep slavery in their econo my?

Nygdan isn't being overdramatic. You're trying to minimize how much the US benefitted from slavery.

I know you're still in school, truthseeka, but try to get the username straight.

Your opinion that the southern US would have been flat broke without slaves is just that, opinion. Nothing to back it up. Worst case is that cotton prices would have been higher.

Why did southern whites fought to keep free labor? Uh, lemme think about that one?

I know it's hard for you to accept, but the reason the North won the war was because of their superiority in manufacturing. Thanks to Eli Whitney for his contribution in that area, also. Ironic, isn't it?

The American economy has always been fueled by innovation. And automation, mainly relacing human labor with that of machines, has been the key driving force. Slavery as an economic factor was doomed to a very short life before it even started.

Originally posted by jsobecky
There were incidents of lynching, etc., but nothing "near genocidal".

I think it was widespread enough and systematic enough to be consideded near genocidal. I wouldnt' call it genocide, hence the qualifier.

That was just one small group of whites, from a small geographical section of the US. The overwhelming majority of whites did not do that.

And its equally clear that the bulk of white racists werent' in the KKK, they were spread out throughout the country. They werent' organized of course.

Stop right there. You are combining slavery and racism as if they were one and the same. They are not.

How do you figure? American slavery wasnt' like, say, roman slavery, where prisoner of war was made into a slave. American Slavery was a racist insitution, it only applied to one race, and it was justified on the basis that blacks were animals, subhumans.

The fact that the federal gov't. stepped in is proof that it was not condoned by most of America.

How do you figure? The federal government doesn't allways do what the majority wants.

This country was not built upon the backs of black slaves, at least not exclusively or significantly

Exclusively, no. Significantly? Of course. The southern economy was dependant on slave labour. Its the whole reason why they were willing to go to war over it, they wanted a balance of slave and free states in congress in order to protect slavery, because the slave economy was vital for them.

Once again, please do not exaggerate the circumstances.

No blacks, no america. Thats not an exaggeration. It'd be a radically different country without the southern slave economy.

Worst case is that cotton prices would have been higher.

Or, Mr. Sobecky, the southern agricultural economy wouldn't've existed. Slavery was legal in the north for a long time too, and there were black slaves there also. But it didn't become the industry that it was in the south, because the local economies were different and didn't make slavery profitable. If you couldnt' use slave labour for intensive farming, then you'd have to pay higher wages. That, on its own, would've changed the south completely, by affecting the distribution of wealth, encouraging smaller plantations and thus more capital investiment, and not having society organized along the plantation system.
And thats IF it was even economically viable to have staple crops like cotton. It might very well have turned out that it wasn't a viable alternative, and the south might've become more industrialized, like the north. Or more focused on commerce. It might've, as a region, pushed for more control over the nearby spanish and british territories. We might have spanish speaking neighbhors in idaho, and an american state in Cuba, Jamaica, etc. If the south could go to war (at least partly) over slavery, why wouldnt' it also go to war over trading rights in the west indies or central america or the mississippi valley?

Slavery as an economic factor was doomed to a very short life before it even started.

It wasnt' doomed or certain to go away. It lasted until a violent war abolished it nearly a hundred years after the federal government formed, let alone since it had been an important economic factor. If there was no civil war, we might still have it today. Heck, we only had a civil rights movement occur in the 60s, so its not too far a stretch of the imagination.
The fact is that slavery didnt' die off on its own, it had to be killed, and even after that, people in the south tried to reinforce the old social system of keeping blacks as secondary citizens. And the effects of that are pretty clearly still with us today, with blacks in the rural poor south or concentrated into decayed and ignored urban centers.

Originally posted by jsobecky
My final statement is going to be misconstrued as rude, crude, and downright insensitive. But I need to ask: What exactly do blacks want from whites? To acknowledge that slavery happened and that racism exists? Fine, it happened, it does.

But I think that some here want white people to live their lives wearing sackcloth and ashes, and to constantly and repeatedly acknowledge that slavery existed. They want it to be the focus of everybody's lives. Sorry, that's unreasonable, and it's not going to happen. There are some who want to live their lives like this is the only important thing on earth that we need to pay attention to, but it is not. And the more that it is shoved in people's faces, the lower it slips on their list of priorities.

This is so good, jsobecky. I just have to say that I really understand exactly what you're saying here and I agree 100%.

And the last sentence is, sadly, what I'm realizing most today. From my experiences here on the good old ATS race threads, I am more turned off and disinterested in being concerned about black issues and concerns than I have ever been in my life. I'm very sad about this.

I have always been concerned about equality, especially for blacks and gay people. I consider myself a "soldier of grace" for the underdog. It was my choice to care. I have always appreciated how blessed and fortunate I am to have never had to deal with what they have to deal with on a daily basis.

But I have never in my life been so ferociously attacked, so viciously harassed, so angrily blamed for something I didn't do as I have in my experiences in these threads. And I've had a wide and varied life with friends and lovers from every spectrum.

I haven't gone so far as to think that every black person in the US is like some that I've encountered here. I can't think that. I refuse to believe that. For to believe that would turn me away from an entire race. And I know better. I know there are black people in this world who, even though they suffer through the strains of racism daily, don't blame me for it. They don't hold me responsible and they don't expect the "legacy of slavery" to be central in my life, any more than building airplanes would be central in my life. Because neither one of them have ANYTHING to do with me.

They KNOW their lives are their experience and they own them instead of trying to put their pain off on someone else.

And that brings me back to the topic of this thread. There are those who will forever hold me responsible for their pain, even though I have never met them, much less done anything to them. There are those who will never know the power of taking full responsibility for their own lives, but instead lash out at others with blame and guilt. They can call me racist. It's ok. Even though it isn't true.

Because the people who count, black, white, cyber or RL, know I'm not a racist.

Fortunately, I do know the power of taking full responsibility for my life.

And that's a good thing.