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Obama's Church: Not Your Average Christian Church

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posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Scrub, this is common in any community group based in the black community. They are about empowering the disempowered black community. It doesn't make them racist.

But there is a substantive difference between helping your community that happens to be entirely African American, and helping the African Americans who happen to be in your community. The former is legitimate and I don't have a problem with it. However, the latter is what this church seems to support, based on their statements.

[edit on 2/8/2007 by Togetic]




posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Is it that they wouldn't welcome you, or that you would feel uncomfortable going to the church?

I don't se anything here that would show me that they wouldn't welcome you.


Well, I think both. I think I wouldn't be welcomed, thus I would feel uncomfortable going to the church -either or=both. Which would come first the chiken or the egg, I don't know.

Why I feel this way...



About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black
I am white so a church that is unashamedly black doesn't sound like I'd be very welcomed as a white person


Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.
Again, I don't fit their profile or belief system


God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism.
Again, not fitting in here...might be seen as tainted as those who actually oppressed them and their people. In fact, ancestrally it would be true to some extent.


We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
I am not part of the black community or black ways of worship or cultural expression


We believe in (snip)
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
(snip)
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
(snip) Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.


Now, of course, knowing this I'd feel uncomfortable...but it's not like going into a catholic church where they don't care if I'm catholic or not, if I take sacrament, know when to kneel, whatever-but I'd feel uncomfortable-heck I've felt uncomfortable b/c BTDT

But it's seems to me, knowing I could not worship with them, culturally, and make those covenants to support the black community etc, they would not welcome me knowing I do not view things, cannot view things nor particpate wholly in their worship and cause...

they might even be suspicious of me coming, but let me say I don't think they'd draw me out and tar and feather me like a Mormon in a protestant church in the 1800's


I just don't think they'd welcome me.

With the exception of:

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.


The rest of their proclaimation is more yielding and inviting to even a white person looking to worship and serve God....


A congregation committed to ADORATION. A congregation preaching SALVATION. A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION. (snip)A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION. A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA. A congregation committed to LIBERATION. A congregation committed to RESTORATION. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.


[edit on 8-2-2007 by 2l82sk8]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Since you brought that up, marge.

Well, according to both CNN and Ted Kennedy ... they are the very same person! That would make them pretty closely related.




You just made my day my dear.


BTW is como te llamas


I am still laughing



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by Scrub
Like I said before I just think it's unfair that if obama was white going to the same kind of church the press would be all over it calling him racist.

Actually, Obama is neither all black nor all white. His father was black, his mother was white.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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I think some people here are really making mountains out of mole hills here, folks. People need to calm down. The reality is that in one way or another like people are going to congregate together, generally speaking, that is.

The mission statement of this church (and others like it) is simply trying to put it out there what they are about and like minded people are welcome to come. If you don't like what they're about, don't go. Simply put.

They are completely within their rights to believe what they want to believe. Why do you care so much about it?

People in this country (US) are free to establish places of their choosing and promote what they want. It's their deal. Who cares about it anyway?

I realize the point of this conversation has to do with the possiblility of a President of the United States of America thinking like this so openly. But how do you know what anyone really thinks? At least they're honest and open about what they think.

Edited to add: Which is exactly why I will never vote for him as long as I may live and he shall run. I am actually glad this news got out about him. Thanks for the info.

[edit on 8-2-2007 by uplander]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra

God forbid we ever live in a society that dull. I dread the day we're all the same color, culture, language, and so forth. Frankly, I rejoice in the fact that women are different from men, blacks different than whites, and jews different from christians, and so forth forth. It is these differences that are the STRENGTH of the human race. Once you homogenize humanity you breed weakness in our species. I hope to god we never achieve the racist dream of colorblindness, but rather instead learn to accept each other's differences and embrace them.


You have voted thelibra for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


This is by far one of the best comments I have ever seen here on ATS. I spent pages debating someone on a similar issue in another thread based on the black caucus and in all of my arguments, I couldnt' have put it so well. Again - well said!!



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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I think the underlying reason this is even news is trying to discredit Obama. There is a very good chance this man could become our first black president - this has many people afraid.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:17 PM
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Flyers Fan, there is nothing in there that says they will support Africa first and foremost, against the U.S. And BTW, which country in Africa would they be supporting anyway? I mean, Africa is a continent, not a country. You know you can have an allegiance to a country, without giving up your first and primary allegiance to your native country.

Thelibra and Rasobasi, you 2 have made the most sense here IMO. There is nothing anywhere in anything the church has said that makes me think they're anti-white. They're focused on taking care of their own community, which is what churches DO. It is a black neighborhood and so that's who they're taking care of.
BTW, this is what ALL black churches do, they take care of their own community. It's usually black because guess what, blacks weren't allowed to live in white neighborhoods up until about 40 years ago and I still meet blacks who have been "discouraged" from moving into white neighborhoods. Yes, it's illegal, but it still happens alot. So who do you want blacks to help? White people?

As for the KKK: They don't try to advance white people's position. In the South, (where I've lived for quite a few years) the white people already ARE the top dog, why the hell would they try to advance whites? What they do is they oppress the blacks. This has always been its purpose, to keep the black man down so he does't become a threat to whites, i.e. so that blacks won't advance and do to us what whites have done to blacks for 450 years, which is slavery, abuse and horrendous racism.

Centurion, why do you think this church is trying to "oppress" whites? Where does it say that? I'd really like to know why you think that.

Personally, I think there are alot of whites who are afraid of a black president. After all, it might mean that the blacks will take over and not treat us nicely. Oh wait a minute, no that's what the whites did to the blacks for the last 400 years. Hmmm, anyone afraid of Retaliation???



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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Just had a thought. Cece____ would really liven up this discussion. Haven't seen her around lately. Where is she when we "need" her most?



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by thelibra
See, there's the thing. I don't consider it discrimination. Now if their mission statement read something like "Kill Whitey, Kill all the white people!" or to advocate harm or negativity towards another race, I'd have a different opinion. However, it doesn't do that. It strives for the advancement of black people. I have no problem with that. Since when did someone trying to improve their brothers and sisters become a hate crime?

Then you would have absolutely no problem with a church that strives for the advancement of white people, correct, thelibra?

The standard that we must use is, if it is good for one race, it is good for all races.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 05:54 AM
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I don't see why that must be the standard. Since whites are already about as advanced they can get in America, the only way for further advancement that would be specific to white people would be to take even more from black, hispanic Asian, or any other minority.

Black advancement or hispanic, or whatever, comes with building a stronger that can overcome the opertunity devide that exists between white neighborhoods and "urban" communities.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Tell me, the libra, why do you feel the need to state your opinion of me? Is this some kind of attempt to denigrate me, and by default to mimize the story? I suggest that you leave the personal commentary on me out of the discussion. You are the only person that I see doing it; do you have a problem with me?


Oi, no, actually you're one of the people I enjoy reading on ATS the most, because even though we disagree on quite a number of things, you do put a lot of thought into your posts. To be honest, I didn't realize you were an Independant (as am I, but apparently different side of the spectrum), and the political views you have expressed in the past that I have read on ATS have all been very heavily neocon in nature.

I don't mean this as an insult, but if someone were to say "Who's the most right-wing members of ATS you can think of?" I'd say you, Marg, and Centurion. Now, that might not be accurate, compared to the actual composition of ATS, but of the threads I read involving politics, you three are pretty much the neocons in the room.

Again, not intended as an insult, but rather to put some perspective out there for people unfamiliar with your views. And if I'm wrong, if you are a lot more moderate than my impression of you, you might consider at least glancing to the left occasionally, because most of your posts gave me the impression you're in the O'Reilly and Hannity camp.

However, I don't have a problem with you, like I said, you put more thought into your posts than most people and often, when I peel away the political bias, you've got some really good points. This one, however, I feel is more politically motivated than usual.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 07:25 AM
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Marg would definitely disagree with you on that assessment. She and I argue over nearly every political post.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by thelibra
I don't mean this as an insult, but if someone were to say "Who's the most right-wing members of ATS you can think of?" I'd say you, Marg, and Centurion. Now, that might not be accurate, compared to the actual composition of ATS, but of the threads I read involving politics, you three are pretty much the neocons in the room.



The libra . . . when I read that part of you post, I almost fell of my chair, you have not idea what I believe or no believe, you seem to completely bypass the post in which I have disagree with anything that has to do with the right under the present administration.

I am still laughing, I am trying to be honest and to the point something that gets me quite some insults for my views on politics.

But the same way I will criticizes the right that happen a lot in ATS from my part I will do the same for the left.


Thanks for that post I thought that I was to much of a lefty


BTW I am very much a moderate and I tend to lean on been a radical.
I believe the nation needs a clean up on the poltical system and that all the dinosaurs needs to retired, we need to clean up congress because our political system is corrupted.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 08:34 AM
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Well shoot, next thing you know, Centurion is going to tell me he's a Libertarian


My apologies then, to all three of you for having such an inaccurate assessment of your political compass. I'd be really curious to see what your results were on politicalcompass.org...

I hope y'all didn't take too much offense at my assumptions, I honestly was under the impression you were rightist conservative republicans, though. But, like I said, that's only based off of the posts I've seen, I expect there's plenty I haven't seen that speak to the contrary.

Okay... soooo... back to the Obama church.

I still can't get over the feeling it's just a poorly worded mission statement, but if you do take the mission statement strictly at face value, I can see where it would appear to be a major conflict of interests in someone running for office.

But you also need to consider that it's kind of like saying a Presidential Candidate would be incompetant because his sister was a drunk, or because his brother went to jail at some point. I really just don't put that much importance on Obama's church's stance or what they've done. They're not Obama, they aren't the ones running for office, and even if they were The First Church of The Black Panthers, it really wouldn't sway my decision that much in whether or not I'd vote for Obama.

And I sure as hell wouldn't refuse to vote for him because of his name. That's, frankly, artarded.

But to be perfectly honest, I think it's just another black church with a strong community outreach program that focuses on black people, and pays homage to Africa, as many black people are apt to do, and they just had a very poorly worded mission statement. To be perfectly honest, I doubt any of the members there have ever -been- to Africa, and I seriously doubt any of them would jump at the chance to visit it, especially the areas that need the most help, like the DRNC. However, that is just an assumption on my part.

The real problem here is that you're letting something like this sway your decision, when what you really need to be paying attention to are things like who has the better policies, who's going to be working in your best interests, and who you think will either be the most honest, or most effective. If you're not going to vote for Obama, make it for a REAL reason, like you don't like his STATED policies, or that he doesn't have enough experience. Don't try to wave a pink wookiee and try and make it into a reason.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 08:37 AM
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thelibra,


Well, for that matter, I don't recall Christ telling people to burn books, discriminate against homosexuals, or turn Muslims into second-class citizens, but there sure does seem to be a lot it going around by his followers

nice sidestep there or is this thread about book burning,or homosexuality,or muslims?


You need to realize that "Christian" really means jack squat when it comes to politics.

I agree. For me this isn't as much about religion as it is about poor decision making. What I have seen from Obama has impressed me so far, but being involved with an organization that promotes discrimination(imo) makes me question his judgement.


See, there's the thing. I don't consider it discrimination.

I see it as discrimination. Organized discrimination at that. All I have seen from the church is the mission statement and that could just be incredibly poorly written. I am glad to see anyone offer someone a hand up, but from that statement it seems the hand up is exclusivly for black people.


A rather dubious claim. Christian churches promote Christians. They actively do so across the entire world. They seek to evangelize and spread "the good word" to anyone and everyone, and inject their belief system into politics as an unabashed way of delivering the country into Christ's hands.



Well, that's fine. Everyone's got an agenda. Just be honest about it. You can't tell me that a Church that specifically focuses on the advancement of Black people is any more bigoted than a Church that focuses on the advancement of Christians, that's a ridiculous claim to make. Using your logic, all Christian churches must completely do away with their overt favoritism to christians and christian values and instead work to advance ALL religions.

Most of the christion churches I have been exposed to promote christians without respect of race. You are right everyone does have an agenda. Mine with respect to this thread is that it is not smart for someone running for office to associate with a group that (imo) promotes discrimination.


Using your logic so far, "people of color" should be just as offensive a term.

I don't appreciate your personal attack. I was only pointing out the correct verbage. There is a difference and I in no way used the term in an offensive manor.
Perhaps my use of the kkk as a comparison was a poor choice, but their early history did include religious overtones. It was as poor a choice as your usage of the slur term "whitey".



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 09:26 AM
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Presidential elections always come down to choosing the lesser of two evils. Does anyone honestly view this as being an "evil" on Obama's part? Considering that

A) He hasn't made any statements to the effect of selling the US to Africa.

B) This church hasn't made any statements to that effect

C) This church has yet to do or say anything that is anti white, or descriminatory against whites or any other ethnic group.

I've sent an email to those at TUCC, and am waiting for a response. Here's the content.



Hello,



My name is ***** *******. I’ve recently heard that Barack Obama was a member of your congregation. Senator Obama already has my vote for president long before the election. I feel that it is important to have a black president. More than that, I feel it’s important to have a new point of view in the white house, other than the accepted good ol’ boy persona that has continuously been forced on many, election after election. We need a point of view that doesn’t marginalize poor communities because of their lack of wealth, and resources to line political pockets.



With that said, I’ve been reading through your website, and see that your church has a very active roll in strengthening the community. You have youth programs for the children and computer training courses for all. This is critical in closing the opportunity divide that exists between the classes. I’ve personally been affected by similar programs that eventually led me to a well paying job in the IT field. At this point, I feel it needless to say that I am a black man. My mother is white, but I identify with my black side much more because of the position my skin color has put me in life. My youngest sister however is all white.



While reading your mission statement, it seems that your church is rightly very community based, and does what it can to help the community. By that token, is anyone in your congregation white? Would my sister feel comfortable going to this church, being that she grew up in the exact same community as me. Basically, would I worry that there would at any point in the pastor’s sermons be any mention of how white people have kept us down? I understand that historically, the dominant power has been white, but does this transfer to all white people? Would my sister be shunned by your congregation because her ancestry doesn’t stem from Africa?



Thank you for your time, and please, don’t take these questions as a criticism of your church, or your mission statement.



Best regards,


I figured I'd cut to the chase and ask them what you are all wondering about. Do they discriminate against whites? Do they have anyone white in their congregation? If not, would a white person feel welcome if they joined?

Let's wait to hear their response. And please, let's not all bombard these guys with angry email, or anything based on their response. I would feel like crap if I opened the flood gates for angry ATSers to attack their mission statement.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I figured I'd cut to the chase and ask them what you are all wondering about. Do they discriminate against whites?


That was a good idea.


But, I really don't think they are going to come out and say 'we hate whitey' even if they do. Afterall .. one of their own is running for president and they have to at least appear civilized.

I wouldn't be surprised to see major changes on their website soon. I expect they will make it look more neutral.

I'll bet a box of donuts ... any takers??


Anyways .. good idea. Let's see what they say and what they do to their website.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 10:03 AM
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Well played rasobasi420

I really hope you get a positive response.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I've sent an email to those at TUCC, and am waiting for a response. Here's the content.


Thank you for doing that! Good on you! I await their response, although I'm absolutely sure that it will be positive.




Do they discriminate against whites? Do they have anyone white in their congregation? If not, would a white person feel welcome if they joined?


This is NOT AT ALL what I'm wondering.

The whole point of mine is -- How it would be perceived by the entire population (black and white) if the word "black" were replaced with the word "white" in their mission statement?

The answer: Racist, white supremacy.





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