First we have Hillary enter the presidential race then we have rumors of Obamas muslim schooling followed by the John Edwards catholic bashing bloggers being exposed and now back to these revelations about Obamas problack christian church. Are you seeing the trend yet?

None of this has a damn thing to do with race or religion, it is pure dirty politics by Hillary that is most likely being managed by none other than James Carville. This is very much his style and you can mark my words that Obama, Edwards or any other credible challenger to Hillary will continue to get hit by a barrage of these political spit wads in the hope that a few will stick in the media. All without Hillary getting her hands dirty.

Someone should capture that church web page as I suspect that it won't be too long before the Obama campaign encourages the church to change the message to something without racial overtones.

I'm stocking up on popcorn. This campaign is going to be quite entertaining on the democratic side if nothing else.

Is jsobecky a political operative for Hillary?

[edit on 8-2-2007 by df1]

Originally posted by thelibra
has Obama said that he's going to remain true to this church, or has he said that he's an American first?

Actually, according to the church mission statement .. he is true to the contenent of Africa first ... "We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization "

Remember our most recent Pope's background?

Off topic.

You are basically condemning a man for a view that he has not expressed,

By supporting the 'church', he supports what the 'church' stands for. The church stands for 'Africa first'.

for having attended a church that probably ...

"Probably" doesn't cut it. "Probably" isn't a fact. What IS a fact is that the church says "Africa first", and Obama supports this church. What IS a fact is that this organization, that Obama supports, holds views that are in direct opposition to what he has publically stated.

You are claiming he has an inability to be an American first,

No. Obama, by his support of this church, makes that statement himself.

do you really, honestly think he would try that? Do you think he has any capacity to even attempt it?

You betchya. It's very possible.

are you condemning a black man because he's black,

Oh riiiiiiiiiiiight. Point out a problem with a black man running for president and you are automatically labeled 'racist'. Never mind that the problem is real and significant enough to require further study.

You're not a racist.... Or are you?

WEAK. The topic is Obamas 'church' and his priorities, as well as the fact that the 'church' that he supports has a mission that is in direct opposition to Obama's public statements. GET ON TOPIC.

So far what I'm seeing is a lot of grasping at straws ....

Then you need to take another look at what Obama has said in his public speeches, and what the mission of his 'church' is. If you still see 'grasping at straws' then I suggest you go buy a pair of glasses because you need them.

by a lot of people who simply can't admit their own racism to themselves.

It's funny how some folks revert to that tired old line .. point out a real problem with a black person and some folks can't deal with it so they scream 'racist'. Thats old and TIRED

Edited ONCE for spelling

[edit on 2/8/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
Are you feor real? Boy you are really scared aren't you?

Of what?

I'm just saying if it was a white guy running for president whom went to a church that was publicly just about helping whites then people would be going out of their minds.

Originally posted by df1
Someone should capture that church web page as I suspect that it won't be too long before the Obama campaign encourages the church to change the message to something without racial overtones.

EXCELLENT Idea!! I can't do it. I don't know how. SOMEONE please do this. df1 is 100% correct. Capture it now .. and compare to what will be up in a few days. That could provide some serious entertainment to go with your popcorn df1!

Is jsobecky a political operative for Hillary?

OMG! JSO did you hear that? Them's fight'n words!

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Then again I am black, so I guess wanting my leaders to fight for me makes me a racist. BTW, that doesn't mean fighting against white people for the empowerment of blacks. That means fighting a corrupt system for the empowerment of those opressed.

It only makes you a racist if the leaders you follow are racist and you follow their racist treachings and beliefs and act on them.

If in the battle of fighting a corrept system for those that are oppressed, and the opressed being deemed the blacks, came to fighting against those who are white, not just in word, and in public office, in public policies, but through street violence, induced by cancerous hate for the white race being promoted to ensure the politician's their proper place in such offices to make such necessary policy changes for the good of the oppressed....

where would you stand there?

now I just have to quote again:

Originally posted by Rasobasi420 fighting a corrupt system for the empowerment of those opressed.

I am lily white as I've said but I agree with you 100%, not on a specifically black issue, but on the issue of corruption and oppression.

Now, do you, or does anyone, happen to actually have any first hand knowledge of what the "Black values" of such church we are discussing actually are defined as?

I've read where it is supposed that those values are this and that. I don't want someone's opinion, or what it logically should be. I want to know ver batim, if possible, what such "black values" are.

Anyone have that info yet?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
that doesn't mean fighting against white people for the empowerment of blacks. That means fighting a corrupt system for the empowerment of those opressed.

That's not what his 'church' said. If it were helping the oppressed, no matter who they were, then that would be great. But the 'church' basically pledged allegiance to the continent of Africa and then pushes and helps blacks only ... all of which is the exact opposite of what Obama has said publically.

His public speechs are fantastic. But his life doesn't support what he says.

Kinda like John Kerry giving great speeches on the environment, but then turning around and owning (and driving) 3 SUVs and blocking wind mills in Cape Cod.

Same hypocricy. And since Obama is running for president, his entire life is to be vetted. Well ..... welcome to the vetting ....

Before I make comments on individual posts, I want to make two ancillary points:

1. Did anyone read the sermon that I pointed out in the OP? Here is an excerpt:

The President tries to frame the justification for his insanity by using language describing the debate in this country over the war as “a great struggle between those who believe in freedom in moderation and extremists who kill the innocent.”

The reality, however, is that the entire war in Iraq and the larger “war on terror” have been based on lies, half-truths and distortions to serve the agenda of the United States imperialism. Where is the public outcry? Where is the outrage? What’s goin’ on?

There is more focus on what the Bears may or may not do as they play a football game against New Orleans than there is on the 3,000 homeless who are still living or displaced in the real life game called “New Orleans.”

Those poor Black and white displaced citizens of New Orleans (not imported team members playing for New Orleans), who have no place to go and no place to live because of this administration’s illegal war and its billions of dollars wasted on prosecuting that war, join with me in asking, “What’s goin’ on?”

Excuse me! The victims of Hurricane Katrina are no longer on the radar screen of the media. Only Barack, his church, his pastor and white arrogance!

Churches are not taxed, and part of their duty is to remain apolitical. The above excerpt has no religious value that I can see, and is merely a political rant.

2. There is a good man, honest, smart, successful, and dedicated, that will be a Republican candidate for president. His name is Mitt Romney.

The major knock against him is that he is a Mormon. So, at least concede that religion is an issue in politics.



Now to the individual reposnes. First I want to address comments made by thelibra

Originally posted by thelibra
Well, Jsobecky, let's be honest, there's not going to be a single Democrat presidential candidate you'll like, except one that's unlikely to win. I don't intend that as an attack, but rather I know you well enough by now to say you're a rather conservative Republican,

You go from calling me a "rather conservative Republican" (untrue, btw, I am an Independent) to a much more stringent characterization:

[i[Originally posted by thelibra
And you're basing all of this off of a rather biased news story from one of the most hardcore neocons on the board.

Tell me, the libra, why do you feel the need to state your opinion of me? Is this some kind of attempt to denigrate me, and by default to mimize the story? I suggest that you leave the personal commentary on me out of the discussion. You are the only person that I see doing it; do you have a problem with me?

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
Now, do you, or does anyone, happen to actually have any first hand knowledge of what the "Black values" of such church we are discussing actually are defined as?

I've read where it is supposed that those values are this and that. I don't want someone's opinion, or what it logically should be. I want to know ver batim, if possible, what such "black values" are.

Anyone have that info yet?

Here's an excerpt:

BLACK VALUE SYSTEM

Statement of Purpose

We honor Dr. Manford Byrd, our brother in Christ, because of the exemplary manner in which he has thrice withstood the ravage of being denied his earned ascension to the number one position in the Chicago School System…

The Black Value System

These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

I'm going to leave you hanging, because, to get the rest of the story, you need to do the same thing I did to get that excerpt: visit the links provided in the OP.

Jso,

Are you upset that they aren't taxed? I thought you were upset because they were in favor of black empowerment.

FF,

I'm sure if the church had the time and resources to help all who are opressed they would, but since the resources are limited, you help who you can.

Sk8,

I don't think anyone has said, "lets take it to the streets". And I don't think anyone has said kill whitey.

As for the "Black Values", I think it's pretty obvious that they mean help your community, because they are just as bad off as you are, and by helping others, you help yourself.

Originally posted by Scrub

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
Are you feor real? Boy you are really scared aren't you?

Of what?

I'm just saying if it was a white guy running for president whom went to a church that was publicly just about helping whites then people would be going out of their minds.

Oh, well then, my mistake. I'll have to re-read some of your previous posts here to have a better understanding of your POV. You hadn't said what you just stated so plainly here and now in your past posts that I can recall.

Commitment of God

“The God of our weary years” will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind…

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us”…

I figured I'd finish it up for you Jso. After all, it helps if people know exactly what the value system is.

And I don't see how this is at odds with American values.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Here's an excerpt:
BLACK VALUE SYSTEM (snip)

I'm going to leave you hanging, because, to get the rest of the story, you need to do the same thing I did to get that excerpt: visit the links provided in the OP.

LOL I did visit a link and even went to the church's website, but I guess I missed the other link that covered what the church's website didn't. I just want it from the horse's mouth, YK? I'll go back and check the link I missed.

But thanks for the teaser!

[edit on 8-2-2007 by 2l82sk8]

I'd also like to point out the thread's name

Obama's Church: Not Your Average Christian Church

Sure it's not, because it's a black church, and most Christian churches are white

Aside from that, they press their own congregation to help their community. Period.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Jso,

Are you upset that they aren't taxed? I thought you were upset because they were in favor of black empowerment.

Rasobasi, I'm not upset at all. Matter of fact, I find the hypocrisy amusing. Are you upset about something?

The reason I brought up the excerpt, is that sometimes I see a lot of other connections to a story that aren't immediately apparent. Like, separation of church and state. And the fact that some non-profits have had their licenses yanked b/c they were a thin cover for a political arm.

Pardon me for being curious.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

I figured I'd finish it up for you Jso. After all, it helps if people know exactly what the value system is.

I could have posted the entire article, Rasobasi, but then I would have been tagged for excessive quoting, and rightly so. There is a reason we use links.

Plus, the longer a post is, the less likely it is to be read in it's entirety. Those that are truly curious will visit the links.

Jso, I am upset actually.

I'm upset that throughout history, black people have been put down through violence, economic, and political oppression, and even drugging the population. And it seems that when there is a chance at the community making some headway, they are shot back down by the powers that be.

MLK, Malcolm X, the black panthers, the introduction of crack into the up and comming black community, harsher prison sentances for black people compared to whites, racial profiling leading to increased black prison populations. All of this pisses me off. And, when we have a decent organization that tries to bring a community together, they are called racists, and told "We don't want one of your kind as president".

Sure they're a church, but I won't hold that against them.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Sk8,

I don't think anyone has said, "lets take it to the streets". And I don't think anyone has said kill whitey.

No, and neither did I say so, or imply that anyone had. So what's your beef with what I said? Man oh man, I think you are totally misreading me.

If I recall, you asked if supporting those who support your interests as a black man or woman then makes you racist.

I knew it was basically a rhetorical question, but I answered anyway and said no-but qualified it with an imaginary scenereo which might prove otherwise, if true, where those you support as leader led you down a racist road, and you followed. It happens.

My question to you was if that happened, those who would best represent your needs and concerns best, make needed changes that would benefit you and your community and fellow African Americans turned out to be racist against whites as well-and promoted such racism as it became more than just a by product of their political progression, but paramount to it...and actually led to violence in the streets even...

Where would you stand? That was my hypothetical situation and question to you. I wasn't claiming it was happeneing or would...just that it could.

My point being where is the balance? If they are good candidates, and represent your needs as an individual and as a group, and can ultimately help you and yours reach their goals...however in doing so, as both a fuel and a by product, we breed prejudism, oppression of another race (I said white, but be it any other race) and hate and viloence...then where would you stand?

I don't mean you have to anwer that question-here, or to me or anything. It was a food for thought thing.

I battle the same in my mind when I think of candidates...when I'm trying to choose the lesser of two evils...it isn't all about what can they do for me, and my group, race, religion, family...but what else will they do...and who else will be harmed in reaching those goals.

So forgive me if you thought I was trying to incite a debate on the next step for this guy is violence in the streets. Its not what I was saying. Though your "Kill Whitey" jokes send a shiver up my spine, while simultaneously makes me nostalgic. An old Hippie teacher of mine used to give me old preserved copies of his Black Panther magazines/newsletters. What a trip.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
As for the "Black Values", I think it's pretty obvious that they mean help your community, because they are just as bad off as you are, and by helping others, you help yourself.

That would be the obvious, now would it. I can come up with that all by my little ol' self. Seriously though, I've been to the church site- I am just looking for what might not be so obvious...another agenda. Not saying it exists but being skeptical and cynical I have to believe in the possibility don't I?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Sure they're a church, but I won't hold that against them.

Nothing wrong with a church, I just don't like how their just about helping their own race. I've been to many churchs this is the only one I have heard of to use race in the teaching. Like I said before I just think it's unfair that if obama was white going to the same kind of church the press would be all over it calling him racist.

Scrub, this is common in any community group based in the black community. They are about empowering the disempowered black community. It doesn't make them racist.

But it would be racist if a white church said the same thing in a white community right