I think we can all agree that there were two seperate incidents back in '97. Most of us believe that the object that was seen overhead by many, was "the real" UFO. Later, the military (intentionally or not) dropped flares which consequently caused a debate that is still going on today. The debate about the flares has taken attention from the real UFO incident. UFO researchers began to focus on the flares (or not) instead of the solid v-shaped object. We find ourselves debating about flares again, but has anyone looked into other witness accounts even if they may not seem relevant? Maybe, that's what we should be looking for. Some obscure sighting report. Are any Pheonix investigators here? If so, any reports from the public about sightings around the same time? Maybe, we all missed the real UFO, and maybe the government didn't. A pre-emptive attack of disinformation for any possible witnesses to a real UFO? You know, just in case someone actually saw it and decides to come forward.


As for this event, let's look at it from a UFO investigator's point of view. Lets look at "one possibility". Flares. First, the video seems to be looking toward the Goldwater Range which is over 30 miles from Phoenix in a straight line of sight. However, the range is covered in mountains, and it is difficult to determine the distance of the objects. If we use the range as a general area were the objects might be over, we can make start investigating (looking for other data points). The helicopter video seems to have been taken from the north/northeast side of town; so, you can add another 10 or 15 miles to that depending. I doubt anyone can see a flare's smoke trail as faint as it is at that distance and at night. Remember that these flares are designed to light up the ground hence the million plus candle power. That is why they can be seen from such a distance. As for the height, Phoenix is at a lower elevation which is why all the videos and photos seem to come from the North side of the area which is at a higher elevation. The mountains block the line of sight for those in the city of the range. As for the lack of movement and linear alignment, again you are seeing a video of what is very possibly flares at a very long distance. Flares are designed to stay in the air as long as possible with chutes, and depending on the type can stay lit for several minutes. Moving objects at night have always been deceiving. The further they are from the observer, they more they seem to be motionless. We have all read reports of a slow moving object later identified as an airplane actually slowing down for a final approach. Now, take into consideration a flare at a long distance with a parachute designed to keep it aloft. Lack of wind would keep them relatively close to each other as well. Even if one was carried away a bit by the wind, at what distance and speed would you actually start to see a difference at 30 plus miles?
These are the type of questions that you have to ask yourselves. Photos and videos are great, but you need to move on from there if you want to get to the truth. Research the weather for that evening. Look for eyewitnesses both in the Phoenix area and at the Goldwater Range. Look at topographical map of the area to get line of sight information. Contact the news agency and get info about the helicopter's position, speed and heading. There are so many more data points that haven't been touched on yet. Don't get me wrong I think everyone is doing a good job looking into this event, but it could be going a lot smoother. Actually picking up the phone and going out looking for tips and eyewitnesses is a larger part of investigating. Arguing and name calling (sheeple) doesn't help and it gets old fast. It only bogs down the investigative process. We can do better.
And before it is asked, I did get some experience with flares while in the military.

[edit on 2/13/07 by Hector] fixed typos

[edit on 2/13/07 by HectorRmz]

Why bother spending so much time trying to prove they are not flares? If someone looks at those lights and thinks they are flares then I doubt you could convince them otherwise with scientific data.

Precisely - and the corollary is:

Why bother spending so much time trying to prove they are flares? If someone looks at those lights and thinks they are not flares then I doubt you could convince them otherwise with scientific data (or direct, specific experience/film/photos/testimony/expert witnesses/empirical evidence, etc., etc....).

This is exactly why I (and many others, I'm sure) stop posting to this thread...

Carry on - and please keep looking up! When you have something other than "beliefs", please share!

Originally posted by Outrageo
Why bother spending so much time trying to prove they are flares? If someone looks at those lights and thinks they are not flares then I doubt you could convince them otherwise with scientific data (or direct, specific experience/film/photos/testimony/expert witnesses/empirical evidence, etc., etc....).

But here's the problem--that's an assumption on your part, and most importantly, its predicated on something that isn't demonstrable, at least where video or photographic evidence is concerned. As I asked in a previous post on this thread, where is the visual evidence beyond these incidents in Phoenix? Flare drops? There should be at least dozens of examples one could dial up on Google. But they aren't there. Moreover, I've never seen any incident except the Phoenix ones that "fools" multiple witnesses. Why is that? Why do only the Phoenix "flare drops" generate speculation?

I began by saying it was an assumption on your part that evidence couldn't convince people otherwise that they weren't flares. Show me something that looks similar somewhere else and I'll change my mind. My experience is that ufo adherents are more than willing to buy into reasonable explanations. They're not nearly as inflexible as you assert. On the other hand, you have to offer more than the government's version of events, obviously.

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Fixed quote

[edit on 14/2/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by yuefo
But here's the problem--that's an assumption on your part, and most importantly, its predicated on something that isn't demonstrable, at least where video or photographic evidence is concerned. As I asked in a previous post on this thread, where is the visual evidence beyond these incidents in Phoenix? Flare drops? There should be at least dozens of examples one could dial up on Google. But they aren't there. Moreover, I've never seen any incident except the Phoenix ones that "fools" multiple witnesses. Why is that? Why do only the Phoenix "flare drops" generate speculation?

I began by saying it was an assumption on your part that evidence couldn't convince people otherwise that they weren't flares. Show me something that looks similar somewhere else and I'll change my mind. My experience is that ufo adherents are more than willing to buy into reasonable explanations. They're not nearly as inflexible as you assert. On the other hand, you have to offer more than the government's version of events, obviously.

Well said, I only want to see video of a confirmed military flare drop so I can compare the two. I have not seen any evidence that can prove to me that these are flares other than the government saying so.(if you beleve everything the government says your an idiot, WMD ring a bell for example) I have searched the net for videos of flare drops and there is nothing comparable. I know for fact the military records the testing of weapons/equipment ect. All they have to do is release video proving these were flares. Have they done so? NO Instead we are left to take the word of a news reporter who failed to do anything other than cooberate the governments story. We all know who controls the media,(propaganda machine) its the corporations that control this country.

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Fixed quote

[edit on 14/2/07 by masqua]

Never said that, I said if you believe everything the government tells you, you are a idiot. That is my opinion, has nothing to do with what anyone has said or posted in previous posts.

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were getting at. Anyway, I don't believe everything the government tells me, and I won't let them fool me with an intentional light show to distract from the large triangular object that flew over the state that night. And I also believe there must have been something else going on in the sky a couple weeks ago to prompt them to pull the same stunt.

My brother lived in Chandler for the first one and is in Mesa now.

He said that first they said it was flares frim Luke. THEN it was flares from Yuma... THEN it was just flares, b/c the military had implemented them for what they are used for ...

lighting up an area. In fact... it's a great diversion. This has gotten soooo stupid that they can now actually deploy choppers and interceptors... deploy flares...

And then say that THOSE VERY FLARES are the anomoly.

This is getting GREAT. Does anybody else feel like they are supposed to be "drooling"?

SPfedup

HectorRmz, Good explaination on how the flares operate, especially at the Goldwater Range. I lived in Ajo, Az. for three years 2003-06. If you look on the map Ajo is such south of the Goldwater Range (4 miles). Night after night we would watch the night training exercises over the Goldwater Range. We would watch the flares being released by the aircraft, you would see about 3-6 orange orbs being released and then the orbs would increase in size and color (golden amber) and then appear stationary (a string of lights appearing they were attached together). We would then look through our binoculars and spotting scope at the lights, you could see the faint smoke trail from the single lights as they slowly drifted down to the ground. Sometimes as the flares burned out more would be released by the aircraft giving the impression that the lights disappeared then reappeared higher in the sky. I did work in and around this test area during my time in Ajo (surveys on Arch. Sites) I found numerous parachutes all over the place, alot of the time the flare canisters were still attached to the chutes. Many times coming from Gila Bend or Phoenix at night you could see these flares, at those distances all you could make out were lights in the sky that appeared stationary, then disappear and sometimes reappear higher in the sky. They were flares. Some of the Phoenix light pictures (old and current) look exactly like the flares we watched numerous times. The other craft reported above Phoenix was something other than these flares. Just wish there was a good photo of that craft.

[edit on 15-2-2007 by Gabbie]

think we can all agree that there were two seperate incidents back in '97. Most of us believe that the object that was seen overhead by many, was "the real" UFO. Later, the military (intentionally or not) dropped flares which consequently caused a debate that is still going on today. The debate about the flares has taken attention from the real UFO incident. UFO researchers began to focus on the flares (or not) instead of the solid v-shaped object. We find ourselves debating about flares again, but has anyone looked into other witness accounts even if they may not seem relevant? Maybe, that's what we should be looking for. Some obscure sighting report. Are any Pheonix investigators here? If so, any reports from the public about sightings around the same time?

Problem is, there seems to be only ONE video of the first event, and that video is extremely grainy, and is not inconsistent with a plane formation. It's so grainy, there are no reference points, so hard to rule out a plane formation.

There are numerous witness reports to the earlier event, but a skeptic has to ask, "Why are there about 6 clear videos of the second, 10pm event, which lasted less than 4 minutes, and NO good, clear videos of the first event?" It's an extremely valid question, especially if we are to believe the witness reports that claim to see a slow-moving, low-flying V-shaped craft hovering in the area...

For those looking for flare footage, I'll again mention the Phoenix Lights documentary that was featured on the Travel Channel in Feb of 2006. I'm sure a vid or dvd is available from the TC if you are serious about seeing it. This footage of other flares, the analysis of how the flares disappear behind the mountain, and the details of the MD Air National Guard exercise, should provide sufficient evidence of the 10pm event to be flares, (for most folks)...

The earlier event is still a mystery, but with only eyewitnesses, and NO good footage made public (whereas there is plenty of the 10pm vids), it really does make a skeptic lean towards witness exaggeration and mistaken timelines...

For those looking for flare footage, I'll again mention the Phoenix Lights documentary that was featured on the Travel Channel in Feb of 2006. I'm sure a vid or dvd is available from the TC if you are serious about seeing it. This footage of other flares, the analysis of how the flares disappear behind the mountain, and the details of the MD Air National Guard exercise, should provide sufficient evidence of the 10pm event to be flares, (for most folks)...

Interesting. I saw a video a few years ago of a locally based photolab in Phoenix. This guy exactly superimposed one of the videos (the most famous one) from the guy's deck in the daylight, and showed that the lights had to be in FRONT on the mountain range. Moreover the spectrum analysis showed that it didn't in any way resemble flares. MOREOVER the military in May of 1997, two months after the fact, were STILL saying they knew NOTHING about the cause of the lights hovering over Phoenix. Now this last statement is a matter of record, irrefutable.

The UPN photo's? The photo of the flares show the smoke trails. How far away was the camera from the flares (or were they zoomed in on)? The second photo of the Phoenix lights (UPN), how far was the camera from these lights? While watching the flares drop on the Goldwater Range we could only see the smoke trails with binoculars or my spotting scope. At times when the drop of flares were further from our location we could not see any smoke trails even with binoculars OR the spotting scope. Just wish there was a good photo of the Phoenix lights.

Originally posted by yuefo
Correct me if I'm misinterpreting--don't your photos show, via spectrum analysis, that the Phoenix lights DON'T resemble military drops? I'm confused because you seem to be making the opposite argument.

Just as Gabbie stated above, distance makes all the difference. The main reason I posted the link to those photos, was in response to the poster who stated flares are not dropped in a linear pattern, when that was clearly shown to be false in those photos. Distance means everything in the comparison, and if you would have read the link I posted regarding the scientific analysis that showed the Phoenix lights to be MUCH farther away than they were thought to be. From so far away there are many factors, mainly atmospheric, pollution, etc. that can make far away flares appear much different than when they are right up close. So, I'm in no way making the opposite argument, but either way, there will be no convincing you those were flares regardless what kind of info is brought to the table. Oh well, you may continue to ooh and ahh at military decoys all you like, more power to you. I'll be keeping my eyes open for whatever it is they're trying to divert your attention from.

Flares don't land 50 feet from you and take off again.
If you have a close up with the fire in the sky type ships, you see a strobe on the bottom.
The ships are just the beginning.

Do you notice that these lights are the same color as the street lights?
Why do you think this is?