I now feel that my God does not send bad things to punish us or test us. In fact, God does not send them at all. Rather I sense that there are powerful forces loose in the world, forces like evil, disease and death.

What is God's role in all this turmoil?

Have you considered the possibility that there is a supreme omnipotent ruler of the universe and that it simply doesn't like us?

God would never wish harm on any one of His beloved children. He is always there with us, holding us in our deepest sorrows as well as our wildest joys. I believe that, but I have not always believed this way.

To me Christianity is about God seeking us out, calling us back to him. In this life, we are separated from Him, so there will be suffering. However, if we use this precious gift of life to answer His call, He will deliver us into an eternity of peace. He has given us a choice, but most of us choose to reject Him.

Mmmmkay.... so you're saying:

1) Jehovah knew from the beginning of time what would happen.
2) Jehovah set up things so we had free will.

...so Jehovah knew from the beginning of time that I would be Wiccan and he plans to send me straight to Hell.

...so Jehovah always knew you were going to follow his approved path so you could go to heaven.

QUESTION: Why did Jehovah balance the scales so that nearly every human being born will ***not*** get into heaven -- that they'll be sent to hell, instead?

(NOTE: Long before Jesus was born, there were a billion or more people who followed other religions faithfully -- and who weren't Jews. Are they simply soulless toys for his Jews and Christians so that they can learn lessons of faith? Currently on the earth, most people are not Christian (most are Moslem). If Jehovah loves all the people, why doesn't he accept those who follow Mohammad?)

[Edited on 18-11-2002 by Byrd]

byrd

you are incorrect they is a stronger majority of catholics and christian then they are of muslims and two God did not set us to fail, we fail ourselves instead of searching for God. We have overlook that God is always with us and he loves us and that we are the ones who go away from him because we want to look to see if we understand ourselves.

Indeed if we accept that there is a supreme being, the evidence suggests that he really hates us.

Sure it might say in the bible that he loves us but thats a fantastic little bit of irony on his behalf don't you think.

I mean consider the possibilitys.

your the supreme ruler of the universe. Are you really likely to care for humans any more than say a school kid cares for the ants in his ant farm.

why spend time careing for the ants, they can't understand your concept of love, hate, life death, anything, your far more likely to get bored and forget to fead them, or torture a couple with a magnifying glass.

Besides, Gods hatred of humans allready has a precident in the bible whene he wiped us all out.

and he tells us that basically its all going to end in hell fire and brimstone, not the actions of a benevolent supreme being who actually has the power to get rid of hell and make the apocalypse a strol in the park.

nah. 10 to 1 Gods a bastard who likes to fu@k with us.

Consider the other possibility: there is no God.

...how else would you have somewhere to post?

Sometimes it is a punishment. Look at Soddam, and Gormorra.

william

Either you are an antichrist or you were drop by ur mom when you were little
because you have the biggest problem against being controlled when you are really not. God gives you freewill to be who you want as long as you keep him in your heart, if this concept is too hard for you then you have a small brain for an administrator.

Originally posted by malicious
byrd

you are incorrect they is a stronger majority of catholics and christian then they are of muslims

Really? That contradicts a number of statistics that I've seen published. The figures I've seen say that Islam is the religion with the most followers, followed by Christianity.

I could be convinced otherwise -- do you have a source for those numbers?

and two God did not set us to fail, we fail ourselves instead of searching for God. We have overlook that God is always with us and he loves us and that we are the ones who go away from him because we want to look to see if we understand ourselves.

Ooookay. So, in other words Jehovah did not set up Mahatma Ghandi to go to hell, but Ghandi somehow didn't search in the right places? That Haiawatha (yes, there really was an Indian chief by that name, who brought peace to the warring tribes) was not set up by Jehovah to go to hell but that he wasn't searching in the right places (he didn't take a canoe to England where he could have heard Christianity and been saved)?

And everyone born in China, unless they converted to Christianity... everyone in that country since the first people moved in... they all get sent to hell?

And that billions of others just like the two examples I gave are simply there as... what? Filler in reality? Pawns to test the Christians (when Jehovah already knows how your life will turn out?)

Byrd

God does not send us to hell or heaven we get there ourselves. God is perfect he does not discrimates other religion. Man is borned with original sin you should see that you are the only who challenges what you don't want to understand.

"God's sheeps are lost, Jesus his shepperd is the only one who can bring them back to herd."

Byrd

Number of Muslims in U.S. below estimates
By Larry Witham
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


These are some of the findings in the most complete religious survey of the United States, and one of the most surprising is that Muslims, many of whom attend mosque services, number just 1.6 million, far below the estimates of 7 million by Islamic groups.
"Unfortunately, not all Muslims attend a mosque," says Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.


satisfy

Malicious,

IF there was a god, especially the knows everything that will ever happen from the time of your birth to death variety, then you have NO free will...NO conciousness... NOTHING. You are an automaton(SP?). Your future is already written, your 'choices' already known. If your entire life is already known...then how can you have free will?

Malicious I feel a bit sorry for you, because of these other users posting such crazy concepts and ideas.

I,ii try to help you out here.


James G. Just because God knows everybodys future does not mean that we do not have free will. God is all powerful and omnipotent all things are easy for him to do. When you turn your computer on, was it your own free will to do that?, Yes it was, and God just so happened to know that you were going to turn it on at that particular time. God knew and you still have free will.


Byrd, You ask why God does not accept muslims. Well do you that islam has paganism in its foundation, and that God is against Idol worship. Allah is just a new name for the old pagan God called BAAL. Islam was inspired by the devil himself. We know this because God says to worship only him. Yet islam practically worships mohammed. So that which does not coincide with the word of God is therefore of the devil. Christ taught only ONE doctrine, so how could christianity and islam come together when they preach different things. Or how could christ accept them both. This would make God seem to contradict his own word.
Also it is because of the free will we that many go to hell. God does not take away the gifts that he gives, so we therefore continue to have freewill. The ABUSE of the freewill we have is what sends people to hell. Dont say that god has balanced things so that many Go to hell. YOU CANNOT BLAME GOD FOR YOUR OWN SIN.


Lupe. God does not hate us. The sacrifice of Gods only son for mankind is enough proof that God loves all man more than we can imagine. It is sin that destroys mankind.


William, I know that you are an atheist. But why dont you actually try and ask God to reveal his existence. Your own ignorance will only bring you misfortune in your life.

Stewards,

I understand all to well. It is your beliefs that clouds your vision, young one. If god created all there is around you. Set all things in motion. Created everything to come out a certain way. Knows everything you will ever do, before you were ever born.... etc...

The future cannot be written. Until it become's the present. Right now, as your reading this, you have an almost endless supply of possible choices you could potentially make. Only one of those choices will become your present in the next second. These many choices all exist within the future, but are never known until you make that choice. Now imagine your god already knowing what you will do till you die before you are born, before he even created this universe. This means, that before day one, the future was already written. Your choices already made, already a well known outcome. You in essence had no free will before or after you were even born. All because your future was already known by god and already laid down by him. How in the hell can you still say you have free will?

What a good question....

Firstly ...

1 God CANNOT do bad things, its against his nature... so he CANNOT send bad things or do bad things....

So where do bad things come from?

Humanity and nature mostly. God just gets the rap for the storm that kills people, or the the person who gets murdered...

The real question is " Why doesn't God stop bad things from happening?" That is a question asked for 1000's of years, from Job and earlier onward...

Look at all the apostles... they died horrible deaths and lived horrible lives, it would have been easier to stay as fishermen and tent makers than to follow God.

But they are reaping the rewards in heaven now for their works, and will for millions of years to come.

So maybe the answer is not to expect the world to be nice, after all you are just passing through, a visitor on the earth, like walking through a bad neighbourhood, your future is in another place - you just have to get through this one.

Believe it or not (probably not for James et al) the bible says that if it wasn't for God holding things back our lives would be MUCH worse.

A time will come when God takes his hand off people and they will follow their base desires. THEN you will see the destructive power of humanity. His spirit is protecting the world at present.

Originally posted by malicious
I now feel that my God does not send bad things to punish us or test us. In fact, God does not send them at all. Rather I sense that there are powerful forces loose in the world, forces like evil, disease and death.

What is God's role in all this turmoil?

NC,

If god does not do bad things...then who did the flood that supposedly wiped out nearly all life except whatever life was in the ark that god said to put in there before he was gonna do the flood...

If you caused a world wide flood...would that be considered a good thing or bad thing?

It was a good thing, the people were too evil, they had become 1/2 breeds of demons and humans,

In those days, and even afterward, giants lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with human women,

.....

Now the LORD observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil.

So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart. And the LORD said, "I will completely wipe out this human race that I have created. Yes, and I will destroy all the animals and birds, too. I am sorry I ever made them."

But Noah found favor with the LORD

...

God observed all this corruption in the world, and he saw violence and depravity everywhere. So God said to Noah, "I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Yes, I will wipe them all from the face of the earth!

[Edited on 19-11-2002 by Netchicken]