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The Two Sides of Race-Relations

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posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 11:48 PM
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I guess carrying ourselves with decorum and remaining open-minded is out of the question. Huh?


Originally posted by truthseeka
I don't give a damn, that's not my field of interest.


So why do you continue to post these personal attacks?


Originally posted by truthseeka
However, it makes you look like a fool


Nice.


Originally posted by truthseeka
Is that so hard to understand? Is it really?


Is it that tough to understand that maybe there is more to the concept then what you are currently comprehending? I've openly said that I am hear looking to learn. You continue to slander other members and their character. Maybe it is time for you to open your eyes and ears. Just a thought.


Originally posted by truthseeka
I really don't care if you want to be pretentious, I know the truth...from both statistics and real life experience. Tell that crap to someone who just fell off the turnip truck.


How often are you going to remind us, and yourself, that you don't care? Why do you think we care, if you care or not? It is your condescending tone that is frustrating and unnecessary. A discussion implies that it is a give and take approach of a given message. You seem to be quite willing to give, but not very receptive to anything that is coming back.

Take five minutes and read one of my posts from above. Try to lighten up a little bit and discuss this without insulting someone.


Originally posted by ceci2006
How can I be generalizing when I have posted sources that have proved my point?


I think you are more than capable of answering that question for yourself.

I'm done with this. You only respond to those who completely agree with you. The rest are passed off as "in the way". I made an adjustment in my approach. I am honestly looking to hear your side of the issue and looking forward to a rebuttal to the issues that you continue to duck, but you maintain to post this jargon.

Have you noticed that a few pages back you were posting four, five, six times in a row without a response? I wonder why that is? It is a waste of time to discuss an issue with someone who will not listen to a word that someone else has to say.

I should of listened to what others had to say and ignored this all together. My naivety and optimism got the best of me and I thought a constructive conversation was possible.


Not that any of this matters, because since I am in disagreement, it all goes unnoticed.


[edit on 17-2-2007 by chissler]




posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 11:51 PM
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Thank you for being honest, Duzey. I am sorry that such a topic like this has generated such animus. I would have thought that this discussion would be filled with suggestions instead what has happened.

But, I think that the main theme has constantly been reiterated:

1)There is a semantic disconnect when different races approach the same subject--even when sources prove the facts of the terminology and how it is used; this means the issues of credibility and believability are at the forefront.

2)There are power issues.

Again, I respect what you've had to say, dear Duzey. And I hope that people can look past personality in order to discuss the issues being put forth on the table.


[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 11:57 PM
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Chissler, if you are not well versed on the subject, how can you have a honest discussion of the issues? All I see what you're doing is trying to establish control after having the panic and paranoia of being subjugated.

I'm sorry that you feel so threatened. But unfortunately, you have to deal with information that might not coincide with what you feel is comfortable.

If kicking up a tandrum (in the mask of "respectibility") is your reaction to this without saying anything of substance (let alone without any sources of your own), then you're not really invested in this.

I give props to OMS, though. He has brought another source to the table to discuss and debate the issue. Luckily for him, he didn't act on the issue of paranoia and panic. My answer to him is that we're dealing with the majority in the United States. You can try to play with the meaning of "majority" by its comparison in history, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the dominant culture (i.e. majority) is European, White, Christian, Heterosexual, English-speaking people.


[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 11:57 PM
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I have contacted Duzey via u2u, and I feel obligated to respond to her public apology, on a public level as well. I hold more respect for Duzey than any other member on this site, and I have told her this frequently. Her efforts on our Canadian Forum have made a difference for the rare "Canucker" that graces these boards. This was nothing more than a small misunderstanding where I did not make the true intent of my message clear. She is in a class of her own, and I hope that no other member feels that her and I have crossed paths on any level.

With that latest post, that is the message that I received. I really hope it is not the case. If so, it is misguided.



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Chissler, if you are not well versed on the subject, how can you have a honest discussion of the issues. All I see what you're doing is trying to establish control after having panic and paranoia of being subjugated.


Panic? Paranoia? No, that is your opinion. You are construing your opinion for facts.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm sorry that you feel so threatened. But unfortunately, you have to deal with information that might not coincide with what you feel is comfortable.


What, in everything that I have said, leads you to believe that I am threatened?


Originally posted by ceci2006
If kicking up a tandrum (in the mask of "respectibility") is your reaction to this without saying anything of substance (let alone without any sources of your own), then you're not really invested in this.


Kicking up a tantrum?
Is that what you call this? Trying to show you respect and keeping an open-mind on an issue that has been given little of either? Amazing.

Decorum, respect, open-minded, etc., all equate to a tantrum? Amazing.

I'm not going to play into your game here and allow you to further victimize yourself. You acknowledge the lack of "suggestions" being brought to the table. Well when I first entered this thread a few days ago, I had plenty. But when we exert a degree of effort into a subject, and our response is chastised, what is the incentive to continue?

I am either attacking you or off-topic. In all my time with this community, I've had that said to me twice. Both times was you. Is that a coincidence?

Suggestions have been brought to your attention. You fail to acknowledge them when they don't fit nicely into your little realm.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by chissler]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 12:08 AM
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Oh hell, I love all of you.

Group hug anyone?

Edited to add:

Nope, guess not.


I still love ya'll.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by Duzey]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But it is true. Mods and Supermods have had to handle the problem. There's nothing else to say about that. But they are not part of the subject matter and has no place here.


LIAR. :shk:

Knowingly posting LIES is against the T&C of the board.

Your insinuations on the past page, and this one, are LIES. I have NEVER been told by a mod, in public or in private, that my behavior has been anything less than fine. Mods and/or Supermods have NEVER had to 'handle me'.

For you to make that statement and then say 'oh well, it's not part of the discussion' ... is an off topic passive/aggressive cyber hit and run.

I am hitting the complaint button about this unending LIE you keep telling.



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 07:16 AM
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This thread is reminiscient of another thread that turned out to be a 75 page waste of bandwidth.

Issues aren't being discussed anymore. It's now merely some type of "power and control" struggle.

Imagine the impression of ATS that a newcomer would get if he/she happened to stumble upon this thread

It turns out, ATS loses in the end tally.

It was so peaceful and relaxing to be able to discuss issues rather than personalities, if only for a few months...



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 08:38 AM
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Yeah, I'm pretty much done, here. The whole subject matter of this thread has been lost.

What is the subject of this thread? Can anyone answer that? And what is the desired outcome of this discussion? Can anyone answer that?

I see much wrong with the sociological definitions being thrown around. If any sociologist were to participate here, I would discuss it with them. Since they aren't, I've been trying to discuss it with the people who are here.

To overload terms such as 'minority' with concepts such as


a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment
sets up the environment from the beginning to be vague and confusing. This definition (Merriam-Webster) includes differential treatment, and therefore prejudices the discussion. There is nothing intrinsic about a minority population that results in differential treatment. Such treatment is a failing of human society. Given this failing, differential treatment may be a consequence of membership in a minority. It is not, however, a property of a minority, and should not be in the definition.

Just because M-W includes this in their definition of the word does not mean I accept it. After all, they appear to say that "new-kyuh-ler" is an accepted pronounciation of nuclear.

M-W Nuclear

If anyone has a real live sociologist that cares to discuss this, fine. Bring them here. I'm not interested enough to go find one.

Way back in the first couple of pages of this 'discussion' I proposed some alternative definitions for some terms that I considered vague or inaccurate. I have yet to see any discussion of these alternate definitions based on their merits, as opposed to the fact that some white guy proposed them, therefore is engaged in a power struggle. News to me.



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Imagine the impression of ATS that a newcomer would get if he/she happened to stumble upon this thread

It turns out, ATS loses in the end tally.

I was a bit worried that some were being given more slack than usual.. then I tried to see it from a different perspective.. realising that it might be actually educating people on 'alternative' views on racism.
It had been a common misconception here that only certain races could be guilty of racism. These threads presented evidence to the contrary .. denying ignorance.


Always a silver lining.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by riley]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:00 AM
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I have just a few things to say, since this thread is basically about victimhood and personal attacks...

See, OMS? Now we know what the thread is about.


chissler, if what you're doing is considered a tantrum, Lord let me throw a tantrum! I admire your ability to keep a level head in the midst of this insanity! I don't have that kind of self-control.
I'm sorry to say that you will never get the answers you seek. I've been on this ride many times. The OP asks for suggestions and answers to questions and then when we give them (our opinions, thoughts ideas - you know - a discussion) the OP then slaps us on the wrists for exercising our "power" as part of the "dominant culture"!


It's then that we realize that it was a trap!
She didn't want answers, opinions, ideas and thoughts. She wanted a forum. She wanted a classroom where she's the teacher and she can teach us all how bad we are for being white.

- She wants to prove to us that we are the bad white people
- She wants white people to feel guilty
- She wants us to somehow make it up to black people.
- She wants us to feel guilty for our "privilege" and
- She wants us to be as obsessed with race as she is.
- She wants blind agreement.
- She wants us to "learn" from her.

And when all of these things don't happen, she assumes the victim role and we are vilified for somehow "attacking" her...

I also want to reiterate what I said yesterday about bringing class into this discussion. If we talked about class, we'd all be on the same side. No one would be "the bad guy" and that doesn't serve the purposes of this thread! She needs a bad guy. A victim needs a perpetrator.

This is a freaking merry-go-round! It happens every time!


I'd like to second FF's comment about the lies. As you know, I have been lied about as well. Flat out lies. Knowing lies. Bald-faced lies. All I can say is don't worry about your reputation or anything. People know... people know... And several times I've thought of "playing that game" because I certainly could. But I'm better than that. And so are you.

jsobecky, I'm going to have to go with riley on this one. This thread is in Slug Fest. It was originated here by the OP for a reason. Why would anyone put a thread here if they really expected it to be "civil, and discussed with respect and dignity"? Hogwash! The OP got exactly what she expected and wanted. And that will be crystal clear to anyone who reads it.

OMS I totally agree with you about loaded definitions being put forth here. I don't care WHO says that the word minority inherently assumes differential treatment. We can all think. We have brains. Minority is about a number. There is no inherent differential treatment implied and that shouldn't be in the definition, unless the user needs it to be that way to further their agenda.

riley, That's seeing the glass half full. To see a benefit in a thread of this type instead of just a cry for help and points, is really looking on the positive side. Good on you!


Now... THAT'S a tantrum!


[edit on 18-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:28 AM
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Really? Well, now that all of you have all the answers, please move along so that some other members can use their intelligence and candor to give ideas toward contributing ways toward we can discuss racism better. Furthermore,other members can be free to contribute why there is a semantic disconnect.

Now that you guys are over with it, I can't wait for the real people who care about this topic to discuss this peacefully without being paranoid or phobic over every little term presented. You are all victims. And unfortunately, it doesn't take my sources or my posts to prove this. You are contstantly obsessed with victimology: naming others as being "victims" or trying to escape the term yourselves by convincing yourself that you aren't victims.

There is a topic to this thread, but unfortunately this group might not hold the intelligent answers or merit to figure it out. We need a new group of people who are more humane and more insightful when using their erudition and drive. Most importantly, they need to not complain and just tackle the issues as they are.

Yep. It's best to go back to BH's pity party about victimization. Revel in your obsession and blindness. Be as mediocre as you want.




[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:30 AM
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My Opinion On All This

People have differing views about race relations, and people have differing views about each other.

Sometimes we can come to agreement on things, and sometimes we can't.

Obviously it's possible to feel strongly enough about the issue of racism to become frustrated and angry when others don't see things the same way we do.

Here on AP, we can discuss racism, but we can't end it. All we can do is share our opinions about it and -- perhaps -- hope to benefit from doing so.

The process can be painful and unnerving. However, I think it can be worth it.

Getting To Know You

When you find yourself getting angry and preparing to lay into another member, ask yourself why.

Why do you feel that way? Why do those differing opinions anger you so much?

Knowing the answer to that question is the key to being able to discuss issues like these.

My advice: it's best not to worry so much about what others think of us. What matters is what we think of ourselves.

I've found that an honest look in the mirror can answer a lot of questions.

Your Mileage May Vary.



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:36 AM
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Well, I hoped that we could learn about racism. But unfortunately, it comes back to the same old thing where there is a group of people trying to derail the thread and to butcher the topic.

I feel that it would be better that this same group that destroyed my "racism" thread would just leave me alone and move along so that others members will not be scared to contribute their opinion.

The first page was not even finished before the complaints began. I tried to persist in posting good information for people to read. And I hope that it will touch someone who has the good insight to discuss these issues without emotion or personality.

Heck. Not this group of people. They can't even read the articles to have an well vocalized take on the issues. Instead, they use their words as invectives to fight against what they don't want to take responsibility for or to understand.

Well, it's their fault, not mine. I've tried out these questions with others in the RL to see how they would respond. And they replied in a matter of fact way without thinking anything differently about the terminology. Most of the people I asked was white. And as a result, we were able to have a compelling and intelligent discussion concerning how to have conversations about race.

I continue to look for those people who simply want to deal with the issues as they are instead of trying to take time to trash a thread because of personal vendetta. :shk:

And I am saddened that the behavior of the worst perpetrators of this action continue to be condoned. But what the hell. I know perfectly which side of the fence I sit. And the grass isn't green there.



Btw, it is true about the mods and supermods. I certainly hope that one day will come in which FlyersFan's abusive and derogatory behavior stops and it won't be condoned anymore.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by Majic
Here on AP, we can discuss racism, but we can't end it. All we can do is share our opinions about it and -- perhaps -- hope to benefit from doing so.


Which is exactly what I, and others, are attempting to do. I have an opinion on this subject. I have read the opinions of other members who happen to look at the subject from a different point of view. I am interested in understanding why this is, and how this came to be. But my difference of opinion has stigmatized myself, in this thread, as a "troll" or a member who continues to "attack" the integrity of a member and not the message. I'm not here to fight with a member, I am here to discuss the issue.

After nine or ten frustrating, off-topic posts, I've acknowledged the error in my way in hopes to resurrect an ongoing chat amongst the members in this thread. These efforts were past off as a "tantrum" and my character was labeled inferior. Since when is acknowledging the error in our way any indication of inferiority?

Like BH has said, the OP is looking for a classroom where she can preach to the masses. Disagreement will result in resentment and the message is lost in translation.

The OP continues to say that she wants this thread to get back on topic and discuss the true topic at hand. Well take your own initiative and lead the way.

We anxiously wait.




posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:48 AM
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What's wrong with turning this question into a classroom or seminar to discuss ways to better approach racism? Some people have no problem with this. There are others who like to learn anything that they can to understand society. They are not threatened by notions of education or information.

Let's be frank. Move along, Chissler. We need people here who are proactive thinkers instead of complainers. I'm tired of dealing with people like you who display an ignorance about cultural issues and use it as a way to destroy a thread because you refuse to understand the other side of things.

I have read this board and found that there are people who are well-versed in what is at stake. They are able to articulate what has been posted in the sources as well as the conditions of American society.

Those are the people I need, not some posers. :shk:

I used to be quiet and take all the insults from you and others. I've endured over 75 pages worth of vitriol.

But no more. Just move on and put your paternalism to use somewhere else.


[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 11:01 AM
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I'm done here.


[edit on 2/18/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
What's wrong with turning this question into a classroom or seminar to discuss ways to better approach racism?


Because this implies that the one in front of the group, you in this case, has more knowledge pertaining to the subject. ATS is not a "classroom" or a "seminar" where one member is put on a pedestal to preach to others. It is more of a circle design where we sit patiently awaiting our moment to voice our concerns.

All Equals!


Originally posted by ceci2006
There are others who like to learn anything that they can to understand society. They are not threatened by notions of education or information.


Please reread my posts. I am looking to read, learn, become informed, or any other term you wish to place on it. I am not throwing tantrums, I am hoping that you will begin to post your thoughts and opinions so those of us who do disagree can maybe see where you are coming from and maybe learn a thing or two.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Let's be frank. Move along, Chissler. We need people here who are proactive thinkers instead of complainers. I'm tired of dealing with people like you who display an ignorance about cultural issues and use it as a way to destroy a thread because you refuse to understand the other side of things.


You say you are tired of complainers, which was followed by a complaint.




Originally posted by ceci2006
Those are the people I need, not some posers.


No, you are looking for members who are in agreement. I may be in disagreement, but I am looking to understand. Get past the fact that I disagree with what you say and understand that I am a member who is looking to hear what you have to say.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I used to be quiet and take all the insults from you and others. I've endured over 75 pages worth of vitriol.

But no more. Just move on and put your paternalism to use somewhere else.


Can we please ignore this and put our petty differences aside. I say again, I am trying to listen what you have to say. But rather than discussing the issue, you are complaining about everyone who disagrees. Maybe if you said something, I would agree with you.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by chissler]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 11:03 AM
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Frankly Chissler, please move along. I'm tired of your crap. Just chalk up this thread as being useless. Believe your other friends and get stepping.

In the long run, I look forward for some peace and quiet where some intelligent people can come and discuss this issue without being afraid or threatened about racial identity and power relations.

And start your boycott. Do what you need to do to wipe off that victim status from your forehead. Hell. You'd think that the "victim status" was the mark of the beast around here.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ceci2006
I used to be quiet and take all the insults from you and others. I've endured over 75 pages worth of vitriol.


Actually, those 75 pages were mostly HER throwing vitriol at everyone else. :shk: She's delusional.

I have been U2Uing with one of the supermods(which I started, and is NOT because of any alleged behavior of mine) - and the supermod said this - "I'm sure you and others are frustratead by ceci's words. But, without your participation, ceci would run out of ammunition."

We (yes, there are many of us tired of Ceci's garbage), are organizing an 'underground' boycott of any thread that Ceci starts. Just FYI. I'm not pushing you to stop posting in her threads .. but I'm just letting you know that she's now on 'boycott' status amongst many of us.

Liz (FlyersFan)


This is the another off the topic post created by FlyersFan.

This is another post demonstrating FlyersFan's harassment of my threads and of my person. After repeated requests to mods/supermods she refuses to cease and desist from using hurtful, unruly and derogatory behavior in the form of taunts, intimidation, re-editing posts, threats, stalking and personal harassment.

I am sorry that I have to take this step. But until her unruly behavior stops, these messages will be continued to be used as a marker of her behavior towards me. This post also contains plans to publically harass and inhibit my posts in terms of organized group intimidiation.

This is for the mods/supermods who will take this post as a demonstration of her personal harassment and will continue to act to stop her unruly behavior.

Thank you very much.



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