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Jump up and down when faced with crime

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posted on Feb, 3 2007 @ 10:09 AM
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Does anyone in the UK care about this insane attitude towards crime that your politicians/civil servants have adopted?



A Home Office minister has suggested people "distract" potential criminals while waiting for police to intervene.

Asked by Jeremy Vine what people should do when confronted by anti-social behaviour, Tony McNulty MP agreed that jumping up and down could help.


Link:

news.bbc.co.uk...

mod edit: changed to external quote tags
Quote Reference (review link)

[edit on 3-2-2007 by UK Wizard]




posted on Feb, 3 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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What a daft thing to say.

.......but then, if someone door-stepped you, how many times do you think you might say something daft too?

It'd be interesting to see/hear the whole 'interview' and whether this is the little bit that was cherry-picked for it's obvious comic value?



posted on Feb, 3 2007 @ 04:48 PM
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Another great idea from Government. Rather than spending our taxes on more police, they expect us to do some of the police's job.

And there was a recent court case about citizen arrest and 2 people were cleared and the Judge stated that the CPS should have not taken the case forward.

I think most people would step away and wait for the Police. It seems that criminals have more rights (and smart ass civil rights lawyers!!)



posted on Feb, 3 2007 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom ERP
Another great idea from Government. Rather than spending our taxes on more police, they expect us to do some of the police's job.


- However much fun it is I don't think anyone can really claim this is a Gov policy.

......and in our society it has always been an accepted part of 'the social bargain' that the law abiding do not just urn away and leave absolutely everything to the Police.

That's not a 'left/right' issue, all of the political parties try and express this point at some time or another.

If people genuinely think they really can just leave that sort of 'social responsibility' or to put it in an old fashioned way 'civic duty' behind we'll really be in trouble.


And there was a recent court case about citizen arrest and 2 people were cleared and the Judge stated that the CPS should have not taken the case forward.


- There's all sorts of odd anecdotes people can come out with (and sometimes they'll even be true, crazy and totally beyond understanding) but just because we're human and prone to flaws and making mistakes that doesn't make everything wrong, crazy or beyond understanding.


I think most people would step away and wait for the Police.


- Sadly that's probably true.
They'll think differently of course the moment its them or one of theirs.


It seems that criminals have more rights (and smart ass civil rights lawyers!!)


- Or at least that's how it always appears to be in the facile tabloid version of Britain.



posted on Feb, 3 2007 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
......and in our society it has always been an accepted part of 'the social bargain' that the law abiding do not just urn (sic) away and leave absolutely everything to the Police.


I think it has also been an accepted part of that same social bargain that when people stand up to crime, the law will stand by them - if you were to poll the British people on this question, do you believe they would agree that the law does support them in this area, methinks not, hence the desire to "look the other way".

In the US, many states have enacted "castle doctrines" which basically intone that home invaders can be dealt with however the homeowner sees fit, up to and including the use of deadly force.

Liberals claimed it was a license to kill, and that the morgues would be full of dead burglars (how unthinkable !). The actual result was that home invasions are now essentially unheard of in many parts of the country, I know of no one in my Phoenix neighborhood who has been burgled, my relatives in the English town of Knutsford however have now been burgled twice, fortunately when they were out. Interestingly they possess a shotgun, imagine their reaction when I suggested they use it.........

Anyway, reading some recent articles on the problems over there, and Lord knows there are plenty of them, there appears to be an entire language in the UK that is somehow conected with crime, could someone explain to this poor dumb American what the following refer to -
"Yob Tzar", "CHAV", "ASBO, and "Hoodie".



posted on Feb, 4 2007 @ 07:34 AM
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Originally posted by Retseh
think it has also been an accepted part of that same social bargain that when people stand up to crime, the law will stand by them


- Like I said, the tabloid version of Britain claims this is so but
I challenge anyone to show me this mythical huge number case criminal cases brought against ordinary law-abiding citizens/subjects who have suffered the law turning on them just because they tried to defend themselves and their property with reasonable force.

It's a tabloid myth.

......and that looper Tony Martin shooting a 16 year old boy in the back (with his illegally held sawn-off shotgun) as the kid ran away from him is not IMO 'reasonable'.


In the US, many states have enacted "castle doctrines" which basically intone that home invaders can be dealt with however the homeowner sees fit, up to and including the use of deadly force.


- The law here (which is regularly being tweaked, along with Ministers regularly giving out advice and directions on this) allows for reasonable force to be used.
But we aren't standing for psychopaths who think the law gives them carte-blach to do what they like under the 'excuse' that they'd found someone trying to rob their home.


Liberals claimed it was a license to kill


- I'm quite sure it's not only "liberals" who have worried over the possibility of this going horribly wrong.


and that the morgues would be full of dead burglars (how unthinkable !).


- Hmmmm, and there was me thinking the Taliban were extreme for 'only' cutting off a thief's hand.


The actual result was that home invasions are now essentially unheard of in many parts of the country


- We too have had falling burglary rates and we didn't have to resort to such extreme measures.


I know of no one in my Phoenix neighborhood who has been burgled, my relatives in the English town of Knutsford however have now been burgled twice, fortunately when they were out.


- Well sorry but anecdotes really aren't much proof of anything (my own brother was burgled several times in London....and yes of course, they almost always happen when you're out).


Interestingly they possess a shotgun, imagine their reaction when I suggested they use it.........


- Seems like they too think a death sentence for a bit of robbery is a tad extreme too.


"Yob Tzar", "CHAV", "ASBO, and "Hoodie".


- They're mostly tabloid catch-phrases that have stuck around.

I've never heard of "yob tzar", CHAV is (IIRC) 'council house and violent', ASBO is a legal term 'Anti Social Behaviour Order'......quite like the restraining orders you have in the US and 'hoodie' is a term used for the kids fashion for those hooded top.

I suppose a hoodie can look threatening to some if it's like this -

coloradoknits.typepad.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">scary hoodie

and be perfectly acceptable casula wear if it's like this -

www.veer.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">nice unthreatening hoodie

But having seen several supposedly scary kids fashions come and go I personally rate the hoodie stuff as a typical piece of cyclical nonsense that comes with almost every generation.

The truth is that, with a few exceptions, our crime here is relatively low and has been falling.....which is hardly that surprising given the aging population we have.



posted on Feb, 4 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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From The Mail on Sunday


Extract from the full Panorama interview

Jeremy Vine: "You see a young man looking aggressive, shouting at an old woman. What do you do? Do you retreat and ring the police?'

Tony McNulty: "I think you should in the first instance. It may well be simply shouting at them, blowing your horn or whatever else deters them and they go away."

Jeremy Vine: "He's now hitting her and the police haven't come. What do you do then?'

Tony McNulty: "The same, the same, you must always..."

Jeremy Vine: "Still wait?'

Tony McNulty: "Get back to the police, try some distractive activities."

Jeremy Vine: "What? Jump up and down?'

Tony McNulty: "Sometimes that may well work."


It looks to me to be a case of somebody putting words in his mouth.



posted on Feb, 4 2007 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- Like I said, the tabloid version of Britain claims this is so but
I challenge anyone to show me this mythical huge number case criminal cases brought against ordinary law-abiding citizens/subjects who have suffered the law turning on them just because they tried to defend themselves and their property with reasonable force.

It's a tabloid myth.



Interesting, you seem to blame every reported social issue in the UK on Right Wing tabloids. Would you honestly expect left leaning rags to take a tough stance on issues associated with crime, especially with a sitting socialist government. As for "reasonable force", that tends to vary depending on your desire to either a) protect the rights of the criminal; or b) protect the rights of the victim. I remain firmly of the opinion that home invaders should clearly understand that if they choose to forcibly enter a home, where it can be reasonaby expected that they will encounter the residents, then by doing so they surrender any protection previously afforded by the law.


......and that looper Tony Martin shooting a 16 year old boy in the back (with his illegally held sawn-off shotgun) as the kid ran away from him is not IMO 'reasonable'.


The details of that case aside, which appear to be that a lonley and perhaps slightly paranoid farmer killed one burglar and wounded a second, it is an interesting commentary on your judicial system that he served just over 3 years before being released. Unlawful killing, intent to endanger life, illegal possession of a firearm - 3 years in jail. Your weak sentencing is perhaps the best safety net for those convicted of using excessive force during an act of self defence, ironic that when you become a criminal in the UK, you then benefit from their perks.


But we aren't standing for psychopaths who think the law gives them carte-blach to do what they like under the 'excuse' that they'd found someone trying to rob their home.


Careful, your skirts are showing - and who is this "we" anyway. Labelling victims who fight back as "psycopaths" and calling Tony Martin a "looper" does little to convince me that you have an understanding of the realities involved with being the victim of a potentially violent crime. I am reminded of John Lennon's belief that the answer to Hitler in 1938 was to "surround him with love".


I'm quite sure it's not only "liberals" who have worried over the possibility of this going horribly wrong.


I have yet to encounter a conservative who does not believe that a man's home is indeed his castle.


Hmmmm, and there was me thinking the Taliban were extreme for 'only' cutting off a thief's hand.


Attempting to compare a hand chopping for grabbing a loaf of bread, to a scared housewife using a handgun to protect her kids from an intruder is a delusional comparison.


We too have had falling burglary rates and we didn't have to resort to such extreme measures.


Extreme in your opinion. Minor statistical fluctuations do not a trend make, the changes I refer to are indeed dramatic.

Some evidence for you:

www.defensivehandgun.com...



- Seems like they too think a death sentence for a bit of robbery is a tad extreme too.


Jumping to conclusions again. Latest estimates show that there are 2 million defensive uses of a firearm each year in the US - without a single shot being fired. You rarely have to pull the trigger, you simply have to place that fear in the criminal's mind - hence the castle doctrine.


They're mostly tabloid catch-phrases that have stuck around.

I've never heard of "yob tzar", CHAV is (IIRC) 'council house and violent', ASBO is a legal term 'Anti Social Behaviour Order'......quite like the restraining orders you have in the US and 'hoodie' is a term used for the kids fashion for those hooded top.


Ahh those pesky right wing tabloids again. Apparently it is in fact "ASBO Tzar" and is someone called Louise Casey. So you have to have a Home Office Minister assigned solely to address public behavior issues, I'd be concerned about that. In the US I am not aware of Restraining Orders being used against out of control teenagers, they are more for stalkers, abusive husbands etc. I believe you have the same thing, but you had to create ASBOs just to try and control your youth.


The truth is that, with a few exceptions, our crime here is relatively low and has been falling.....which is hardly that surprising given the aging population we have.


I seem to recall a recent survey in which the UK was found to be the most violent first world nation in the World, partly thanks to the Scots - hardly encouraging.

Link: news.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Feb, 4 2007 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by Freedom ERP



And there was a recent court case about citizen arrest and 2 people were cleared and the Judge stated that the CPS should have not taken the case forward.


- There's all sorts of odd anecdotes people can come out with (and sometimes they'll even be true, crazy and totally beyond understanding) but just because we're human and prone to flaws and making mistakes that doesn't make everything wrong, crazy or beyond understanding.



www.theslant.co.uk...

Found the case I was referring to. These guys made a citizen arrest and then had to suffer as the CPS decided to take them to court. This is what is wrong and why people shy away from helping the police.



posted on Feb, 4 2007 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Retseh
Interesting, you seem to blame every reported social issue in the UK on Right Wing tabloids.


- No.

But it's an interesting attempt to swerve and avoid the actual point.

The fact is that for all the tabloid tales there are not large numbers of British people finding themselves facing the full rigors of the law for attempting to stand up to criminals.

It is, as I said previously, a tabloid myth.


it is an interesting commentary on your judicial system that he served just over 3 years before being released.


- Funnily enough, if you could but see it, this particular case showed how biased and in favour of the home-owner protecting his property the law was/is.

But interesting how you chose to use it, all the same.


Careful, your skirts are showing - and who is this "we" anyway.


- There's nothing "showing" about commenting on the true state of affairs here.
British people are not in favour of a 'free for all' in those circumstances, we occasionally have a case come along that has people talking but the result is never an absolute 'free for all' for those who would like to be able to do anything they like to defend their home/selves in all circumstances.


Labelling victims who fight back as "psycopaths"


- That's not actually what I said, as I suspect you know full well.


I have yet to encounter a conservative who does not believe that a man's home is indeed his castle.


- Again that was not the point I made at all.


Attempting to compare a hand chopping for grabbing a loaf of bread, to a scared housewife using a handgun to protect her kids from an intruder is a delusional comparison.


- Well you can spin & try and dress up your contrasting examples as best you can but there will undoubtedly be different circumstances, just like the Tony Martin case.

Given the choice I suspect a Taliban chopped off hand looks pretty 'liberal'.


Extreme in your opinion.


- Yeah, see above.


Minor statistical fluctuations do not a trend make, the changes I refer to are indeed dramatic.


- Actually the changes have been far from minor.


Since peaking in 1995, BCS crime has fallen by 44%, representing 8.4 million fewer crimes, with domestic burglary and vehicle crime falling by over a half (59% and 60% respectively) and violent crime falling by 43% during this period.

On the recorded crime side, both domestic burglary and theft of and from vehicles have continued to fall over the same period.

www.crimereduction.gov.uk...


Some evidence for you:

www.defensivehandgun.com...


- You'll excuse me if I stick to British official stats and leave you to the dubious 'gun love' stuff.


Jumping to conclusions again.


- You're the one who just left the comment

imagine their reaction when I suggested they use it.........



Latest estimates show that there are 2 million defensive uses of a firearm each year in the US - without a single shot being fired. You rarely have to pull the trigger, you simply have to place that fear in the criminal's mind - hence the castle doctrine.


- Yeah, I heard it all before and been through this one many times before.

You can keep you gun love.

We simply don't want it
(and the 'we' there is a majority of the British people, when asked time and time again they always respond in the majority saying a loud and clear 'no thanks')


Ahh those pesky right wing tabloids again.


- Well you did ask and it happens to be true.


Apparently it is in fact "ASBO Tzar" and is someone called Louise Casey.


- Perhaps if you'd asked about an ASBO Tzar in the first place and not a 'Yob Tzar'
(which I have genuinely never heard of before)?


So you have to have a Home Office Minister assigned solely to address public behavior issues, I'd be concerned about that.


- We have our own concerns and address them as we see fit, thank you very much.


In the US I am not aware of Restraining Orders being used against out of control teenagers, they are more for stalkers, abusive husbands etc.


- I doubt that is a statement you can make as absolute in 100% of all cases.

In any event as I said above, we'll tackle our problems as we see fit, just as you choose to do some things differently in your country.

That seems to me to be perfectly normal.

For instance, 'we' here find the idea of metal detectors, drug sniffing dogs and CCTV cameras in schools alien to us but I gather they are not unusual in many US schools.


I believe you have the same thing, but you had to create ASBOs just to try and control your youth.


- Actually it was merely intended to be a very flexible addition to the 'armoury' of our Police and the community they serve.


I seem to recall a recent survey in which the UK was found to be the most violent first world nation in the World, partly thanks to the Scots - hardly encouraging.


- There are shallow reports, unspecific reports, some deliberately cherry-picked reports and reports that talk only of changes from one year to the next.
More detailed official stats show a slightly different picture -


Violent crime as measured by the BCS has fallen by 43% since a peak in 1995.

Just under half (49%) of all violent incidents reported to the BCS did not result in any injury to the victim.
A similar proportion (47%) of all police recorded violence against the person in 2005/06 involved no injury.

Young men, aged 16 to 24, were most at risk of being a victim of violent crime in 2005/06; 12.6% experienced a violent crime of some sort in the year prior to their BCS interview.

Police recorded robbery increased by 8% between 2004/05 and 2005/06. This is still 19% below the 2001/02 peak in robbery.

There were 765 homicides in 2005/06, a decrease of 12% from the previous year.
The homicide figure of 765 includes 52 homicide victims of the 7 July London bombings.
The number of police recorded firearm offences increased by less than 1%.

www.crimereduction.gov.uk...

- Like I said it's not quite how the tabloids would have people believe.


Originally posted by Freedom ERP
Found the case I was referring to. These guys made a citizen arrest and then had to suffer as the CPS decided to take them to court. This is what is wrong and why people shy away from helping the police.


- I don't doubt it is not a pleasant experience.

But the system worked didn't it?

It came before a Judge who said the case should not have been brought and he threw it out, right?

This kind of thing is extremely rare. That's a fact.

But there would surely have to be something very unusual going on if it never happened at all, wouldn't you say?



[edit on 5-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]




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