'Rogue pilots' friendly fire

Hmm.

You guys talk so much about American troops and pilots that you forgot that a British Challenger crew tank fired on another British tank in Basra back in 2003. Hows that for a debate on it?

Already covered, my dear buffoon. Do try to keep up! Also, just because we are talking about American incompetents in American planes, factually killing their own allies by commiting fratricide, please do not take it personal. I can assure you if it was British pilots, we would still be saying the same thing (we are a professional nation). It just happens to be American pilots whom commit fratricide more often...in contemporary terms, of course.

These kind of combatants not only should be removed from the theatre of conflict, they should have to undergo re-training, after a lengthy stint in the nick. Compensation should be paid to the devastated families (which is really little recompense), and our our government should stop pussy-footing around with yours, and release the truth to the public, especially the public that put them in power.

Originally posted by elysiumfire


Already covered, my dear buffoon. Do try to keep up! Also, just because we are talking about American incompetents in American planes, factually killing their own allies by commiting fratricide, please do not take it personal. I can assure you if it was British pilots, we would still be saying the same thing (we are a professional nation). It just happens to be American pilots whom commit fratricide more often...in contemporary terms, of course.

Nobody mentioned it brother buffoon. Didn't see it mentioned here.

These kind of combatants not only should be removed from the theatre of conflict, they should have to undergo re-training, after a lengthy stint in the nick. Compensation should be paid to the devastated families (which is really little recompense), and our our government should stop pussy-footing around with yours, and release the truth to the public, especially the public that put them in power.

The truth is that the pilots mistaken it for enemy so they fired it. No conspiracy, nadda. As mentioned before that troops do fire on their own by accident because of the conditions of war they are in.

Hmmm, ok! I accept you are thick! So I'll help you out...I posted a wikipedia link covering aspects of fratricide...including historical occurrences commited by British troops. Have a read and let the penny drop...please! There is no requirement of you to demonstrate your lack of discernment. In fact, I insist you do not demonstrate it. Thankyou. Have a nice day!

P.S. No one mentioned conspiracy, just American incompetency that cost British lives.

[edit on 4/2/07 by elysiumfire]

Originally posted by deltaboy
You guys talk so much about American troops and pilots that you forgot that a British Challenger crew tank fired on another British tank in Basra back in 2003. Hows that for a debate on it?

The problem is you guys have a lot of 'previous' as far as this sort of thing is concerned.
Feb 1991:Nine British Soldiers killed when their stationary Warriors were attacked by US aircraft. The Warriors were clearly marked with fluorescent panels.
April 1994:A NATO delegation of 26 including two British Officers die when there US Blackhawk is shot down by an F-15.
March 2003: An RAF Tornado returning to base after a mission is shot down by a US Patriot Battery who mistook it for an Iraqi missile.
December 2006: Royal Marines strafed by an A-10 whilst on patrol in Afghanistan.

The Canadians have also had a few unfortunate run-ins with the USAF.

In the attack on the four Scimitars to which I referred to in my earlier post, It should be noted that they were marked with the normal ID panels and Union Flags on their hulls. The A10's attacked not once but twice, ignoring the calls from the British Radio operators and the alert Flares that had bee fired from the tanks. The Taliban by the way have not operated groups of tanks for sometime.

Am I being over sensitive?

Originally posted by deltaboy

The truth is that the pilots mistaken it for enemy so they fired it. No conspiracy, nadda. As mentioned before that troops do fire on their own by accident because of the conditions of war they are in.

Deltaboy, I have read many of your threads please do not try to ruin this one with your ultra American patriot rhetoric!

If you knew anything about a war situation you'd know that you don't shoot as soon as you see something move! This incident was not a mistake, when the challenger 2 took out another that was a mistake, when a US patriot missile took down a British tornado that was a mistake. The incident we are talking about here was not.

The pilot of the thunderbolt has to follow protocol pilots are not allowed to fly around with a hot trigger, authorisation to fire has to be given. If you read my previous thread I explain it there.

So Deltaboy do some research before you try to ruin sound debates with your agenda.

Oh and just for the record there has been no accounts of friendly fire from British on American forces...

... I bet that's because the British are too scared to shoot at the US, right?

Difference between Iraqi and British vehicles

Iraqi

Britsh

[edit on 4/2/07 by Jimmy1880]

I bet that's because the British are too scared to shoot at the US, right?

Whatever! Give our troops permission to defend themselves and America will be a '#load' o' planes less, and of course, pilots. Then we'll see who scrikes!

Originally posted by elysiumfire

I bet that's because the British are too scared to shoot at the US, right?

Whatever! Give our troops permission to defend themselves and America will be a '#load' o' planes less, and of course, pilots. Then we'll see who scrikes!

Relax dude it was sarcasm!!!! God read my other posts, and you'll realise I'm British AND in the Army. Thats so embarrasing, I'm always telling Americans to read the post before they say something dumb.

READ THE POSTS BEFORE POSTING CRAP, this way ATS is alot more fun!!!

I realize this is a touchy subject but lets keep it civil folks.

Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.

Hee Hee, Jimmy you daft bugger!, I know you were jesting...so was I! Practice what you preach, discern the addition of the silly icon, next time I'll use a smiley, but I thought the mad face was more preposterous and silly. Sheesh!

Best wishes

These weren't pilots that were operating on their own- they just weren't on the same freqs as the ground forces, and hadn't been read on to the locations of the friendlies. It was unfortunate, but there's nothing sinister going on.

Originally posted by GT100FV
These weren't pilots that were operating on their own- they just weren't on the same freqs as the ground forces, and hadn't been read on to the locations of the friendlies. It was unfortunate, but there's nothing sinister going on.

The point is, no one will ever know what really happened, until the Pentagon releases the information to the Coroner's Inquest. American ATS members should be aware that a Coroners Court investigates the "how, when and where" of suspicious or violent deaths. It does not try accused individuals or suspects.

I have difficulty with the idea that all this happened because the A-10 pilots switched frequencies during the attack. I also don't understand why they ignored the alert flares, the fluorescent ID panels and the British Flags on the hull of at least two of the tanks. Why didn't they recognise the four Scimitar light tanks? They are completely different to the Soviet MBTs the Taliban occasionally used as Taxis. When was the last time the Taliban employed a unit of for tanks in the current campaign? The A-10s attacked the Scimitars not once but twice, before, presumably they switched back radio frequencies and became aware that it was a British unit they were attacking.

Until there is a full and public explanation of the circumstances, speculation about incompetence, bounties and drug abuse will continue.

A-10s and AH-64s took out Bradleys and other US vehicles too. Not everyone was on the same freqs, and unless the ground forces had the correct type of radio to talk with aircraft, they couldn't have communicated. Secondly, the ground forces moved forward at a rate much faster than they had anticipated, which put them out as unknowns.
There was ground fratricide too, where tanks shot other friendlies because of this phenomenon. That's why so much effort was put on reliable means of IDing friendlies after the Gulf War. There was no standardized measure before hand- it was merely if they're in front of Phase Line X, they're not friendlies.

I wasn't aware that there had been similar incidents involving US Army vehicles in Afghanistan. I know there have been in Iraq. The problem here is that the A-10s attacked a formation of light tanks, when it was known that the Taliban did not posses light tanks. Indeed the Talibans use of any armour recently has been very, very rare thanks to NATO air superiority and the nature of the terrain. Toyota pick-ups appear to be their transport of choice. Even when you make allowances for the heat of battle etc. You will still left with a lot of visual indicators which were either ignored or simply didn't register with the pilots. My main point remains that we will never find out what really happened until the Pentagon releases more information.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Difference between Iraqi and British vehicles

Iraqi

Britsh

The top pic, bad comparison. This is what pilots think of what they thought was Iraqi enemy vehicles that mistaken it, instead of the British Scimitar.





Now factor that with stress, anxiety, speed, evasive maneuvers, distance, etc.


[edit on 5-2-2007 by deltaboy]

But this indcident took place in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

Originally posted by Fang
But this indcident took place in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

What the heck you talking about? This is about the incident in Basra, Iraq. Basra is not in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by Fang
But this indcident took place in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

What the heck you talking about? This is about the incident in Basra, Iraq. Basra is not in Afghanistan.

Please red my earlier posts. I am talking about an incident that took place in Afghanistan and the Pentagons refusal to release the cockpit videos from the A-10s.
Thats "What the Heck" I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Fang

Please red my earlier posts. I am talking about an incident that took place in Afghanistan and the Pentagons refusal to release the cockpit videos from the A-10s.
Thats "What the Heck" I'm talking about.

Are you talking about the one where the Canadians were killed by friendly fire?

Just ignore me if I'm mis-remembering here, but...

Did I once hear of a friendly fire incident (I believe in the first Gulf War) where the US pilot(s) attacked a British tank and then gave the explanation that they thought it was an Iraqi tank made up to look British?

Now I can't find any links on this so I'm even starting to doubt myself here I hope I'm not going mad