Originally posted by subz
WTF said it was a shower? I didnt.
You said its not a gas chamber. So what is it subz? What is that chimney venting if not toxic gas? What was that room labeled 'showers' on their
blueprints, if not a fake shower or a real shower, and what was the chimney for?
Oh, so when you're wrong it just doesn't matter eh?
I never said I was wrong, so I fail to see how this statement is relevant.
The "gas chambers" at Auschwitz are not authentic, they are reproductions.
Subz, no one is saying that the gas chambers that are at the museums now were entirely built by the nazis. The camp was attacked, raided, and the
structures, to say the least, weren't being preserved by anyone. Are you saying that there were infact gas chambers, but that they were destroyed,
and these ones are just reproductions, or that there were never any gas chambers there at all and the whole thing is fantasy?
Care to cite any evidence of this $50,000 pay out or should we just accept everything you say as Gospel?
www.nizkor.org.../m/mermelstein.mel//mermelstein.text
Defendants LIBERTY LOBBY, WILLIS CARTO, ELISABETH CARTO, LEGION FOR SURVIVAL OF FREEDOM, INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW, and NOONTIDE PRESS, and each
of them, are jointly and severally liable to plaintiff MEL MERMELSTEIN for the sum of One Hundred Fifty Thousand Dollars ($150,000.00)
There are also many accusations of the falsification of documents.
This is meaningless. Either demonstrate that the documents were falsified, or admit that it hasn't been demonstrated that they've been falsified.
Aliens from dimension X
could have teleported 6 million jews out of the germany, and then fabricated with their alien printing presses nazi
documents to make it look like they were killed.
Yes. That is a possibility. Again, any demonstration that the documents used to uncover how many people were killed, the methods used, and even the
private diaries of the nazi camp operators, were all falsified?
Where are these aerial photographs and how do we know when they were taken?
Could aliens from dimension x have created these and other images? Yes, its possible. Can you demonstrate that they did?
would also compel the perpetrators to recreate other so-called evidence.
No one sites the existence of the holocaust museum at aushwitz right now as proof that the holocaust happened.
Truth4hire
If they were so secret, they would have built them underground.
I am sorry, but I think we can all agree that because the nazis didn't do soem things that we might've expected them to do, that therefore they
didn't do the holocaust.
The chambers are real. They had fake shower heads. They lead directly into the morgue. They had drawers and vents and pressure sealed doors for the
zyklon-b that they had in the camps.
The fact that the chambers weren't underground does not somehow negate those other facts.
Besides, if you make the jews walk down stairs and then kill them, you've got to lug them upstairs to burn them. Better to do it at floor level.
I have looked at the aerial photos, and wonder how anyone can determine that any building would have been certainly used to gas people. If you
can prove this to yourself please convince me too.
For what purpose would there be that room, next to the clothing fumigation room, leading to the camp morgue, with gas vents??
There is a big difference between cancer and heart disease risk and claiming that everyone in a non-hermetically sealed room died within half
an hour because of Diesel fumes.
If you really beleive that diesel fumes are, infact, healthy, because of their oxygen content, then by all means, rent a diesel engine truck, connect
a hose from the exhaust to the cab, roll the windows up, and start the engine.
If several Treblinka witnessess claim that masses were killed using Diesel fumes, and this turns out to be untrue I want to know why they
lied, and what else was lied about!
Even if the SS officer who gave that testimony was lying, why does that mean that everyone lied?
And here's the thing, there is nothing to indicate that he was lying. Diesel fumes can and will kill you, you can fit the number of people into the
rooms that he said were put in, and other, independant, witnesses gave corroborating testimony to witnessing other diesel gassing episodes.
but I have not once encountered a source with actual death counts where not the word "estimates" was present
Yes. There will never be anything other than an estimate. Indeed, how could there be?
I want to know who is right, and want to find this out by analyzing as much "raw" information -not propaganda either way- as is available
preferably.
I would fairly and openly suggest that you should start with the people making the 6 million 'claim', get the books from Yehuda Bauer, check his
sources, and do follow-ups on his bibliography.
Not according to people like Gemar Rudolf.
Rudolf claimed that there was more cyanide in the fumigation chambers than in the gas-chambers.
www.nizkor.org...
Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz of the Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal gas chambers, i.e.,
Krema I, Krema II, Krema III, Krema IV, Krema V, and the cellars of Bunker 11, at levels above other facilities in the AB complex
Essentially, Rudolph claimed that the fumigation chambers were stained with Prussian Blue, a byproduct of Cyanide Gas, and the death chambers
weren't. THe problem is that there is more CN gases in the death chambers, and that the death chambers were regularly cleaned of
blood and
excrement after use, whereas the fumigation rooms weren't, this would also wash away the Prussian Blue.
And notice also that we see here why those little neo-nazi singers have chosen Prussian Blue as their band's name.
What nice girls.
And yes, I know that that has nothing to do with the claims, but I can't help but to point it out as an interesting side note.
Anecdotal != Forensic by a long shot.
I do not understand, what are you saying is anecdotal here?
Do you not think that some claims of eyewitnesses seem over the top?
No. Mankind is capable of horrors that you can't even imagine.
Are experiments which served no obvious purpose to the German Reich or the war effort more likely to have happened or not to have happened?
The nazi psychology and philosophy is anti-rational, so, again, I don't see why it should be important if they were doing irrational things. It was
irrational to hate the jews, fellow germans at that, in the first place. There is nothing rational in the nazi ideology. It is 'beyond
rationality'.
My point being that some stories simply were not true. What they say about the Holocaust itself is irrelevant to the soap argument.
Yes, some stories were not true, and some were not verified. But again, that doesn't mean that all stories were not true, and none of that means that
they didn't order, store, build, and use execution gas chambers. If we rely on the non anecdotal evidence alone, then we have nothing left to
conclude other than that they were exterminating millions of jews and other people in these things.
Why? Give me one good reason why some witnesses have lied
It is irrelevant.
I simply fail to understand why someone e.g. invent a story about the damned soap.
People more reported that they had
heard that the nazis were making soap out of human remains, british POWs in particular. They didn't lie
about it, they said that they had heard rumours about it. This is quite different from someone lying about having seen it happen, or anything like
that. IN some cases, the POWs beleived that the nazis made people into soap
because germans threatened to do this to them.
But the holocaust deniers don't tell this, they simply say, 'people slandered the germans by saying that they did this, but it never happened, such
liars!". Its propaganda, subtly distorted and partially released information, done to illicit an effect, a mental state, in the recipient of the
propaganda. NOT historical research.
. I´m trying to figure out if it was scientifically possible with whatever forensic evidence is available.
But what scientific evidence have you seen that refutes there having been these things done? What scientific evidence do you want to see? Thye
chemical studies on the residues in the execution chambers? The requisition orders for the killing gas? The tabulations of the number of jews shipped
in, and the number of jews that were left at the end? Which?
because I am stubborn until I see the forensics
What forensic evidence did that 4 hour series of videos present?
Why the anger?
I am angry with the so called 'holocaust revisionists' because they are lying cowardly scum, who try to hide behind the very freedoms and
protections that people died trying to defend at home and restore to germany, and they do all this just to be able to attack the jews. They are lying
cowardly scum.
I don't have any anger at people who read their propaganda and become convinced by it. The nazis are good at propaganda, so good infact that they are
able to use it to convince people that the holocaust itself is just 'anti-nazi propaganda'.
I´d rather see specifics before calling anyone flat out liars.
Again, what evidence are you reserving judgment for?
I am not degrading the memory of the victims, but just saying what I think seems logical, and doing so without emotion.
But what are you saying happened then?
You agree that the nazis wanted to exterminate the jews.
You agree that there were execution chambers.
Are you just questioning the number of dead?
Because there is no chemical evidence telling us the number of dead, indeed there can't be. It is all based on nazi records and demographic studies.
If you disagree that it was around 6 million, then you need to look at the demographic studies, the actual demographic studies and not just
nazi-propaganda summaries of it, or denials that it exists, and then show what errors were made.
I do not even know what neo-nazi means. Truly. What is that, someone who hates Jews? Someone who admires Hitler? Someone who has
National-Socialist beliefs as in cravings for a fascistic regime with a single leader and persecutions of minorities?. I do not think that the author
of this film hate Jews.
Anyone who is going to make a movie containing lies and deceptions about the holocaust like that and that tries to cover up the nazi crime
practically, by definition, hates jews. Its not that the person making the film is simply mistaken or incorrect, they are
lying. The research
exists and is out there, and yet they are pushing flat out lies. Why? They're not doing historical research that is 'controversial', they are
pushing lies.
What I do think is that the author tries to warn about the influence of the Jewish race in the current time. See above about the Jewish
influence in Media, Politics, Business etc. What annoys me is that if you even say the word Jew or mention that there are a lot of Jewish people in
important positions all over the world you are labelled a neo-nazi.
WTF does it matter if a politician is jewish or not?
WTF is the 'jewish race' doing? They are human beings. If you don't know any jews, then perhaps you shoudl try to make an effort to meet some, and
then you might realize that 'they' aren't some 'organization' trying to take over the media or running the banks.
What if tomorrow suddenly top executives of banks and media were all Finnish?
If magically out of nowhere the Finns took over all banking and media positions? Yeah, that would be weird. That is NOT what has happened with the
jews, there is nothing suspicious about 'the jews', they are people. Being people, they some are in positions of power, influence, and society.
Well thanks, I wasn´t aware I was doing that at all until you mentioned it.
I have no idea as to what you personally are doing, and I can only assume that you, like the rest of us here, are on this board to have a discussion
about unusual topics. As far as I can tell, you watched this video, and think that it makes some convincing points.
That´s precisely what I am looking for. Was there a conspiracy? Were documents faked? Is it at all possible that eyewitness accounts were
faked? These questions must be asked if you are to review the entire evidence presented in the case of the Holocaust.
Don't you see the inherent problem in assuming that there was an all-powerful and evil jew conspiracy here?
Zionists doing backroom deals with the Nazi regime is not exacly popular history is it?
Its not what you get in a high school history class, but then again, anyone that thinks the education that they got in high school history was the be
all and end all is pretty mistaken anyway no?
He is trying to prove his point that the Holocaust scenario might have been planned by the Zionists to obtain the state of Israël.
I understand that that is what the nazis want us to think. During the lead up to the war, they wanted us to think that the zionists had made secret
backroom deals to loose the war for germany, to aide themselves, and now they want to trick us into thinking that the nazi crime was actually a jewish
crime, and an ongoing on that we must struggle against.
You seem to forget that the Red Cross visited all three compounds on a regular basis, and that they did not find evidence of systematic
extermination by either gassing or starvation.
www.nizkor.org...
[Red Cross] president admits "moral failure" in Holocaust
Sommaruga, in a statement to mark the 50th anniversary of the conflict, said that the ICRC regretted what he called its "possible omissions and
errors of the past."
www.nizkor.org...
WWII documents bolster Nazi-Red Cross connection
One OSS document, dated Jan. 11, 1944, says: "A series of observations commenced by the French and continued by this organization indicate that the
I.R.C.C. is probably controlled by the German I.S. The German delegate to the I.R.C.C. in Geneva is known to be a German agent and the head of the
I.R.C.C. to be German controlled."
The document adds: "Enough is known to warrant the assumption that any delegate of the I.R.C.C. should be considered a potential if not actual German
I.S. agent." The letters I.S. stood for Intelligence Service.
I think that, unlike the case with the holocaust documentary evidence, here we DO have evidence of a conspiracy to forge documents and falsify claims.
If you are at all skeptical of the 'pro' holocaust documents, then you'd have to completely reject any Red Cross claims.
And apparently they made no claims to responsibility at the time anyway:
www.nizkor.org...
You will see from the enclose that it is, unfortunately, extremely difficult for the International Red Cross Committee to help the Jewish population
in Germany and the occupied countries. As we have written to you before, the German authorities do not consider the civilians who are arrested in
occupied countries, including France, as civilian internees, thereby excluding them. from the application (by analogy) of The Geneva Convention
regarding Prisoners of War. The International Red Cross Committee's field of action, unfortunately, does not include this large category, known as
"detained civilians".
Inasmuch as it is impossible for the International Committee to visit the camps where these people are interned, the Committee is not in a
position to check on the distribution of relief supplies. For this reason these concentration camps are not included in the category of internment
camps to which the Blockade authorities allow relief supplies from overseas to be sent, Furthermore, the International Red Cross Committee does not
receive any lists of the names of the Detained Civilians.
[emph added]
Wrong and Right. They were enemies of the state by law, and they were innocent german (...) civilians.
I really don't see how it is at all relevant that the nazis considered the jews to be worthy of destruction, and that that somehow affects their
destruction. They were clearly not enemies of the state. Yes, the nazis said that they were. That hardly makes it true. The only enemy germany had
during that time was the nazis. They murdered millions of germans, destroyed germany's economy, and used the german nation to wage nazi wars.
I also don't understand why you are using an elipsis there and a few other times in this context.
but until I need to read the books you referred to earlier in this thread to see why you think that
?
Are you suggesting that the zionists that were meeting with the nazis were urging them to exterminate the jews????
The nazis pretty clearly didn't need any outside influences to get them to want to get rid of the jews.
Look at the map of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the three delousing chambers lay to the north east, clear of the prisoner barracks, and even further
clear of the crematoria, which were located to the south.
Alright, I am wrong about the gas chambers being close to the fumigation rooms.
The claim was that they can't be gas chambers, because they are too close to the camp commander's quarters. THe camp commander himself claimed that
they were gas chambers. That seems to nullify that that can't have been because the gas would kill him.
[edit on 5-2-2007 by Nygdan]
