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Why is British Culture Collapsing, and Should We Be Supporting John Reid?

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posted on Feb, 11 2007 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by Retseh
Reality overcomes conservative loathing.


- Or else it's just falling in with the hackneyed old myths that a sizeable segment of every generation seems to embrace at some point or another.

We've had this the 'sky's falling in' guff with every generation that every was.

In the short period since the end of WW2 it's been (in no significant order) Teds, Mods, Rockers, Skins, Casuals, Soul Boys, Punks, Greasers, Gangsta's, Yardies, hoodies etc etc.

In fact (unfortunately I can't find the link) but I've read the exact same kind if thing written by some ancient Roman and/or Greek guy, youth is violent, abusive, ignorant, criminal etc etc and the world's going to hell because of it.

Old fogeys tend to get scared as they age and are receptive to and broadcast this fear and young fogeys love to talk it up as they weave into it their day-dreams of some weird brutal authoritarian state (with them as some sort of leader or 'commissar' no doubt) sorting it all out.

Instead of opinion here's some facts -

The perception of crime is the point here.
Greece for example has very little crime but the Greek public have one of the highest levels of 'fear' of crime.
The UK has a higher level of recorded crime crime than Greece and yet the British public have a lower level of fear.

See the 2007 European Crime and Safety Survey


Almost the answer, it should read "Political dogma at the expense of public safety".

Your CHAVs are there to stay, remember to follow Home Office advice and jump up and down when they come in through your bedroom window at 2am.


- Like I said we have had this all before, for chavs see the list (Teds, Mods, Rockers, Skins, Casuals, Soul Boys, Punks, Greasers, Gangsta's, Yardies, hoodies) above, it's just youths being the unruly pain in the ass they sometimes are and a handful going way too far, nothing more.
Every generation seems to have done it to one degree or another.

If you remove 'young men on young men' crime from our crime stats we have very very little personal crime.....

....and lately we also have a lot less burglary for people to be worrying about too.


The report includes data from the period April 2005 to March 2006.

Since peaking in 1995, BCS crime has fallen by 44%, representing 8.4 million fewer crimes, with domestic burglary and vehicle crime falling by over a half (59% and 60% respectively) and violent crime falling by 43% during this period.

On the recorded crime side, both domestic burglary and theft of and from vehicles have continued to fall over the same period.


www.crimereduction.gov.uk...




posted on Feb, 11 2007 @ 01:27 PM
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We have not seen THIS before. Smikey, honest to God I do like you, think you’re an intelligent guy and would never deliberately put you down or flame you but I honestly think when it comes to this perception of crime issue, you are either deluded, lying or so stuck in a political mindset you just cannot manage an objective opinion. Either that or you are lucky enough to live in an area where the anti social blight hasn’t yet reached you….it will though.

This is not about old duffers predicting the worlds going to hell, nor Hinge and Brackett types twitching curtains and wetting themselves at the sight of a youth walking their streets. It’s kind of disingenuous of you to portray all people who speak out against this in such a way, it’s also callous, are you really not bothered about all these decent people who are now vulnerable and fearful, somehow do their rights matter less that their concerns can be dismissed so easily without the slightest actual effort to investigate what they say.

Because it does beg investigation. The only people I know that say crime isn’t so bad are the ones not living amongst it. I live in a very average outer suburb of London, there are some very nice areas, a few less nice but hardly slums and no go areas. Violent anti social crime has gone through the roof in the past ten years, last month alone I can think off the top of my head of at least seven major incidents and always involving innocent people who just happened to be going about their business encountering gangs of youths and ending up being hurt, one of them I was involved in so I should know. They happened to people of all ages from young kids to a pensioner (who had her arm broken) and ranged from assualt to actual murder, and lets be very clear about this that all of these incidents seemed to have been carried out for fun apart from one. One that particularly stands out is a shop keeper beaten by three youths then besieged in his shop by another three carloads called up by the original
Perps. The police station was about ¼ of a mile down the road, they got there after it was all over…..as usual. God knows what the next months going to bring but if you really blame me and just about everyone else for being scared then I really don’t know what kind of incident would have to be serious enough to justify that worry.


This is not about youth culture per se. Yes I was one of the punks back in the day, yes the teenagers then were a pain in the arse, yes they used to fight amongst themselves a lot, petty vandalism etc, the difference being when we went too far the police or the neighbours came down on you like a ton of bricks. That’s what youngsters do and that’s how communities are supposed to respond, it keeps the balance, unfortunately that’s gone now. It’s not about youth it’s about an emerging underclass, protected, coddled and excused by the well meaning who have taken full advantage and lost any moral grounding because there is no one there to enforce it, at home or at school or in the wider society. Naturally the younger element in that group are the most extreme and when they drag up the next gerneration they’ll be that little bit worse. We’re seeing a cultural earthquake wrecking our streets and corroding society, the tipping points gone already I think, there are generations who are lost to us and cannot be brought back. What we do with them other than put up with it as the politicians seem to be saying, or look to ourselves for protection as more and more seem to be muttering. Not right maybe but perfectly understandable.

Just a further observation I'm starting to wonder if the reason the police always turn up after the bastards have gone is deliberate, are they as scared of them as we are. They seem at the moment to be little better than recording angels rather than law enforcers.



posted on Feb, 11 2007 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by ubermuncheIt’s kind of disingenuous of you to portray all people who speak out against this in such a way, it’s also callous, are you really not bothered about all these decent people who are now vulnerable and fearful, somehow do their rights matter less that their concerns can be dismissed so easily without the slightest actual effort to investigate what they say.


- UM I'm not denying there are anti-social people around and considering I am more than happy to post crime stats I can hardly be said to be denying the current level of criminality either.

I am merely asking for some perspective.

It's easy to dismiss the crime stats as being a poor reflection or flawed or whatever but they are the same ones used for everybody and it's still the case that the numbers have fallen dramatically in the last ten years.

I'm not denying anyone has had or does have problems (members of my own family included) but I will not subscribe to the claims of the 'sky falling in'.
The stats simply don't show things getting worse and they do not paint the UK as the worst either.

Maybe it's having grown up in a really hostile, vicious and frequently murderous hell-hole (that was Northern Ireland in the 1970's) that leaves me a lot less agitated about this stuff.

(and as for where you live or work?
I used to live and work, specifically, in Tower Hamlets, Southwark, East Ham, Aldgate, Dagenham, Stratford, the Elephant and Castle, Romford, Ilford & Barking areas.....as well as travelling all over the city (including regularly going to places in Tottenham, Brixton, Clapton, Dulwich & Hackney)
....and I was there for 20 years or so.

I know plenty about many of the extremely dodgy areas of London.

I do know all about people being mugged, beaten up by the Police for no good reason and burgled etc.

.....and I defy anyone to look at and come to know about, and I mean really know about, any of the sink estates in and around London during the last 30yrs and seriously try & tell me that the 'underclass' is something new.)

Like I said, this 'excuses' nothing.
But it does strike me as somewhat belated and out of place to hear these problems spoken about as if they are (a) something new and (b) the end of the world.
Neither approach IMO is a useful, honest or productive one.

[edit on 11-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Feb, 11 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Spuggy
Well, I travell extensively around England, and I've travelled extensively globally and compared to most of the other "affluent" European countries, England is a haven of prosperity and peace. You'll find far more violence, poverty, crime and general unpleasantness in france, Spain, Portugal... Germanys pretty peachy but we've got it a hell of a lot better.


So what if we're better than other Nation's?

Think about this for a moment. Say I am from an African Nation and I go; "My country only has 20% of women being raped your nation has 40% clearly mine is better." Doesn't mean that 20% is an acceptable level.

I see criminals day in and day out, who laugh at the justice system in this country. I had to go private because on the NHS I needed to wait over 4 months to get a scan (and thankfully I went private.) The Government runs Youth programs in the area that reduce crime and then cut funding and cancel the program, so the crime comes back and so on and so fourth.

Just because we are better than another nation does not mean we are good enough. When I see children not even in their teens throwing stuff at old people, swearing at them there's something wrong with this Nation. Worse still when a Nation judges those who intervene and discipline those children, or think it's a crime to protect your own family there's something wrong.



posted on Feb, 11 2007 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

- UM I'm not denying there are anti-social people around and considering I am more than happy to post crime stats I can hardly be said to be denying the current level of criminality either.

I am merely asking for some perspective.

It's easy to dismiss the crime stats as being a poor reflection or flawed or whatever but they are the same ones used for everybody and it's still the case that the numbers have fallen dramatically in the last ten years.



Well I don't agree with that in my experience. I don't see crime dropping dramatically near me, I'm also dubious about these 'figures' seen as half of all crime i'snt reported.

I'm not offering much insight to this apart from if you were studying the number of people who don't work and the number of people who are unemployed you would find a massive discrepency. The map is not the terrain if you follow my meaning.




But it does strike me as somewhat belated and out of place to hear these problems spoken about as if they are (a) something new and (b) the end of the world.
Neither approach IMO is a useful, honest or productive one.

[edit on 11-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]


Belated? Its never to late to draw a line and say 'No i'm not having this' who would we be if we didn't want the best for ourselves and evryone around us. I don't call this progress sminkeypinkey i don't agree with backsliding and saying 'oh well best stick my head back in the sand' thats the reality for people around me.

.


[edit on 11-2-2007 by carslake]



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 02:33 AM
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Smikey- firstly sorry that quote from me you posted looked like a personalised judgement against you, it was a general comment not directed at any one person apologies and no offence intended.

Secondly-


Maybe it's having grown up in a really hostile, vicious and frequently murderous hell-hole (that was Northern Ireland in the 1970's) that leaves me a lot less agitated about this stuff.


You may have hit the nail on the head, it could be you're tolerance is set higher than the average person, and I know what a hell hole it could be because I had family who served out there in the seventies and spared no details in telling us what went on.

People are concerned, not through any chicken little hysteria but because they see a problem that is spiralling out of control and a complete lack of political will to really tackle the problem, half baked schemes and stop gap posturing but no real action. Yeah I know how rough the Elephant and Castle can be I've got friends from there who now live here but they're saying exactly the same things as me, so it's not about waiting for both areas to become comparative it's about tackling the problems here and there now so they don't get any worse and start to become better.

It's not hysteria to say people are frightened, it's not hysteria to remark that the actions of a nasty minority are directly impacting the lives, rights and freedoms of the majority. There is a mindset that has emerged and solidified amongst a section of British society that is sociopathic, arrogant and tyranical, this is blighting thousands of peoples lives every day. That is a fact. The fear of crime-violent crime and anti social acts- in this instance matches up with the reality IMO.

And I'll repeat, if the politicians, judiciary and police carry on failing to sidestep this and take it seriously, it wont be too much longer before the lawful majority start taking their lead from the thugs they see around them and fight fire with fire. I hope I never have to see vigilantes operating on our streets but then again I never thought as a society we would go in fear of gangs of thirteen and fourteen year olds either.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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Just on a purely superficial, aesthetic note, why do all these hoodies and chavs dress for s**t. I mean in my day even the nastiest looking bunch of skins had a certain style and individualism and where as prissy about their image as any soul boy, nowadays it's always these crappy trackie bottoms and burberry base ball caps, it's so dull looking....or am I just an old git.



posted on Feb, 12 2007 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
Smikey- firstly sorry that quote from me you posted looked like a personalised judgement against you, it was a general comment not directed at any one person apologies and no offence intended.


- It's ok UM, it's 2d text on a screen and that's a very limited form of communication at the best of times, no offence taken cos I was sure none was intended (you'd have let me know loud and clear if you did, I'm sure
)


You may have hit the nail on the head, it could be you're tolerance is set higher than the average person, and I know what a hell hole it could be because I had family who served out there in the seventies and spared no details in telling us what went on.


- Yeah perhaps so, this place certainly had, er, shall we say, 'it's moments'?

(for anyone who doesn't know so much about what went on here in NI and is interested I'd recommend Martin Dillon's 'The Shankill Butchers' & 'Dirty War', they're fairly easy to read but give an honest account of the psychopaths that used to run around making your average 'wrong place wrong time' incident here into a brutal and often fatal nightmare......

.....which I might add we came out of and now find ourselves living in one of the lowest crime areas of the UK.
It can be turned around and normality can be done.
Which is another good reason not to just 'go' with the doom-sayers.)


Yeah I know how rough the Elephant and Castle can be I've got friends from there who now live here but they're saying exactly the same things as me, so it's not about waiting for both areas to become comparative it's about tackling the problems here and there now so they don't get any worse and start to become better.


- No doubt.
The Elephant and it's surrounding areas can be (or at least could be.....I've been away over 10 years now) a rough part of town.

Did they ever do the redevelopment?


It's not hysteria to say people are frightened, it's not hysteria to remark that the actions of a nasty minority are directly impacting the lives, rights and freedoms of the majority.


- I'm not doubting that UM.
I do get very cynical thought about journos and political heads making capital out of this stuff when it's pretty clear they're using it as a vehicle for some other hobby-horse and not actually too focused on the problem itself.


Just on a purely superficial, aesthetic note, why do all these hoodies and chavs dress for s**t.........or am I just an old git.


- You might want to give that "old git" idea a little further thought.


Take it easy UM.



[edit on 13-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]



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