If I might venture into these troubled waters...

Sleeper is definitely genuine. A genuine opportunist. A genuine story-spinner. A genuine so-so writer. It is remotely possible that he may even be a genuine contactee (though, IMHO, he probably is not). The fact that he claims to be one and has a compelling tale to relate is enough to gain him entry – even if some details are sketchy and he has both detractors and devotees aplenty – perhaps especially so.

Nevertheless I do have one trouble spot to share – and it was just brought up again – so here goes: I respect Hal completely - his posts have been lucid and usually right-on-the-money. But I am compelled to slightly differ Hal, where you state:

I think there is some entertainment value for some members (not for me) and he is not making money off of it and no one is getting hurt. If the Admins want to let him keep posting that is there business and you should just ignore the threads.

The fact that the story is indeed "entertainment value" (i.e., has a potential and declared profit motive in the form of manuscripts/screenplays etc) and that he is indeed making money (or at least trying to), in my opinion crosses a line. My understanding was that the admins were not to condone or support the self-promotion of for-profit works.

I was under the impression that there is no ambiguity and is to be no 'exclusions' to this policy. Elsewhere it has been claimed by some posters that certain members are given, in rough summary, 'preferential treatment'. You may disagree, and some might chide such an observation, but hints of nepotism are unavoidable to the discerning eye (and sleeper is not unique in this regard).

With great admiration and reverence I commend you, and especially all of the admins and their moderator assistants for maintaining what is arguably the finest forum on the 'net that deals with these important issues. It's a tough job, time consuming and I certainly don't envy all of the petty mud-slinging and babysitting they need to do all day, every day, just to maintain decorum.

Yet, since the OP asked about a member as being genuine – the correlation of authenticity and member value motives is inescapable. Clearly, since the admins felt it was necessary to expose the member’s identity along with pen names and book titles, an operational fallacy is manifested and, somewhere along the line, probably in the ATS Board Room, will have to be dealt with. I hope it did not open a can of worms for these good folks…

Meanwhile, it will only be a matter of time before the next budding sci-fi author starts a fascinating thread, playing to the curiosity and emotions of devoted ATS members, and then perhaps finds a way to weave into the discussion (or debate) his for-sale works.

Maybe the admins would consider a separate for-profit area that authors/playwrights/artists could promote their works. I for one would visit such an area frequently and probably buy or at least peruse the offerings of our many talented members. It may even be an ultimate source of residual revenue for ATS…

In any case – thanks to all for contributing their thoughts and opinions – they ALL have immense value…

Originally posted by Crakeur
the whole story makes for crappy sci fi, the kind with Traci Lords as the pilot and Richard Greico as the human...

Leave Lords and Greico out of this.

You've been warned.

Originally posted by Outrageo

I think there is some entertainment value for some members (not for me) and he is not making money off of it and no one is getting hurt. If the Admins want to let him keep posting that is there business and you should just ignore the threads.

The fact that the story is indeed "entertainment value" (i.e., has a potential and declared profit motive in the form of manuscripts/screenplays etc) and that he is indeed making money (or at least trying to), in my opinion crosses a line. My understanding was that the admins were not to condone or support the self-promotion of for-profit works.

First off Outrageo, your response was very well written and I commend you. However, I want to point out that when I said "entertainment value", those were my words and my opinion and not necessarily that of the Admins. Some people take the subject of alien abduction and or possession very seriously, and I don't mean any disrespect. What I meant is that there are strange stories here on ATS that even though you don't believe them are interesting and therefore entertaining. Not everything that is entertaining will cost money and not everyone is necessarily out to sell something.

I think sleeper falls in this category. He doesn't seem to be out to make money on this and does it for attention, and knows what to write to get it. Whether that is good or bad is up to the reader and they can vote with their feet, or in this case a mouse.

Regards.

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
I am not pleased with the way this thread is going. It is nothing but an extension of the other thread, and not really worth it for me to post in.

If this thread gets on any type of track like I listed back a few pages, I would implore someone to drop me a u2u, but until then, I am going to take my leave.

Kudos

thank you very much!

Originally posted by Outrageo
The fact that the story is indeed "entertainment value" (i.e., has a potential and declared profit motive in the form of manuscripts/screenplays etc) and that he is indeed making money (or at least trying to), in my opinion crosses a line. My understanding was that the admins were not to condone or support the self-promotion of for-profit works.

Hey Outrageo, did you notice that sleeper did not reveal his identity or ever try to plug his book through this site? Did you notice that part? Did you notice that Hank McCoy, who seemed to have some kind of weird agenda against sleeper, has bowed out of this thread?

Hank what exactly are you upset about? Now that it has been clearly shown that sleeper wasn't deceiving anybody regarding his work, then can't you let it alone? Are you now going to form some posse and investigate sleeper's past? He's given lots of personal info here so it won't be hard. Who exactly are you, Hank McCoy, except the snobby punk of the X-Men? Hell I'd take Gambit over you.


CHECK IT: sleeper respected ATS. WAY more than the author of this thread. He has contributed some of the most thought provoking words on aliens I personally have ever read and I feel there are others who agree with me.

He said he wouldn't try to sell himself as an author here, but thought he'd tell his personal story. This is because he trusted ATS, not that he was looking to say, "Hey I'm an author!" He was letting people ask questions to find out who he is and I assure you that sleeper is who he says he is.

Yet, since the OP asked about a member as being genuine – the correlation of authenticity and member value motives is inescapable.

His motives were to stay anonymous until two users threatened to reveal his name. sleeper was intending to stay hidden and these users robbed him of his anonymity while themselves remaining anonymous, something people like me and a lot of other ATS users take for granted. I like to stay anonymous but now sleeper cannot thanks to those persons who will probably continue to harrass him.

Hey, he's able to fight his own battles but I just feel like I am speaking out for some of the quieter alien experiencers who just can't handle the vivsection which this forum demands.

Meanwhile, it will only be a matter of time before the next budding sci-fi author starts a fascinating thread, playing to the curiosity and emotions of devoted ATS members, and then perhaps finds a way to weave into the discussion (or debate) his for-sale works.

If he writes as well as sleeper, it may be so, but he'll still have members stalking him and he'll have to endure their harrassment on ATS the rest of their days I guess eh? Why will this hypothetical next author even bother?


[edit on 2-2-2007 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by Tiloke
If the screenplay is sold, I will also go see the movie(if it ever gets that far), But I wont pay for his book if he is trying to pass it off as factual.

I can say that the "screenplay" won't sell. There's constant things like "Because the mind is faster than the mouth Milton knows what Mike is about to say before he says it." There's no way to film it and the event is not important to anything. It reads like the kind of material that shows up on "men's fantasy erotica" sites -- or very bad fanfic.

And, literary criticism aside, I'd like to tackle some of the suggestions Hank made because I don't believe a word of his "disclosure."

Looking at it from a writer's standpoint:

* It's a "Mary Sue" (or, rather, "Marty Stu"). Ordinary guy (the writer, thinly disguised), who is caught up by a Wise Mentor and trained for a Mission of High Importance.

* to his credit, he did some minimal research on Uranus.

* a grown man who's got adult kids and has probably seen aliens on tv commercials, on posters, as toys, in movies, etc, etc... freaks out and faints when something like a typical Grey materializes?

* Milton says "Time is an illusion, created during the Renaissance as a tool for the emerging maritime industry and later evolved into a punctuality issue." In fact, there are ancient clocks and calendars that go back to the stone age.

* alien has no notion of time. It was 8:16 and "three minutes later" it's 8:38. If he has no notion of time, how can he control the ship? One of many lame continuity errors.

* Mike gets tossed out of the airlock and is weightless... and isn't vomiting like crazy and doesn't get freaked out.

* 50-something guys have poorer quality sperm than 20-somethings. Lower motitlity, lower count, higher incidence of defects. Why didn't they harvest him at age 20?

* quote: "Mike knows he is an android because the android has that written on his name tag." Androids with English nametags? ("Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya...")

* Apparently the aliens haven't heard of the Earth tech where you can print-and-fabricate all sorts of stuff. And why are there shops? If the're giving it away, why not replicators?

* Alien said "Humans have bacteria in the intestines that we don't tolerate well." -- It takes up to 72 hours for your digestive system to fully digest a meal. And there's bacteria at the OTHER end of the digestive system (morning breath, anyone?) If they "sealed him up" so he wouldn't have to go to the bathroom, he would develop a fecal impact or burst bladder.

* Milton says "The city you are in is a stable society; it didn't get that way over time it was created that way. It's not going to advance or decline it will remain stable and the same for millions of years." Can you imagine living in a house with 3 million year old plumbing? Just try getting that repaired.

* "Bio-diversity exceeds that of earth, there are innumerable varieties of plants, insects and animal species on Uranus and in the tube cities." But apparently only 2 of each (neutered), otherwise the city would be hip-deep in animals.

* The only memories Mike gets back have to do with Hot Monkey Sex with Alien Babes.

* Interrogator says, "Now that humans have begun to migrate off earth---such as yourself by supernatural means for purposes even we don't quite understand," Uhm... Milton is a Supernatural Means? (continuity and logic errors)

* One sexually charged evening with his wife releases three eggs which he promptly fertilizes and grows to the size of a month old fetus (without developing placenta) in 8 hours. 50 year old women are usually menopausal and sure aren't releasing 3 eggs at a time. I'm speaking from experience.

I'm going to quit here. There's actually more howlers in it.

Indellkoffer you did a fabulous job of sorting through the stories and picking out things that just don't follow.

You got a a vote from me!

Another thing about the time thing...humans aren't the only ones that go by time. Animals and plants "prepare" for the seasons, galaxies and suns are destroyed and created and supernovas form over TIME. Radioactive material decrease over time due to their half-lives. To say humans created time in the Renaissance is just...well...ignorant.

I just finished reading the Crucible, and it is sad that humans haven't changed much since the 1600's

There are different types of Time.

I believe Sleeper was speaking of Linear Time.

Originally posted by Annee
There are different types of Time.

I believe Sleeper was speaking of Linear Time.

Linear Time is saying time passes if you are conscious/you know it or not. Which does not go along Milton's description of it being a human invention.

Basic Linear Time is like a Tool - - it measures distance - sort of.

Tools are usually inventions of need.

You know: "Necessity is the Mother of Invention"

I doubt humans are the only race who use Basic Linear time - - but humans probably did "invent" it on earth for themselves because they had a need for it.

Thanks, Retinoid.

Anyway, I was going to do a bit more about the "cultures" and the "philosophy" of these "advanced cultures", because this is the least believable part of the whole chunk (besides the hot monkey sex.)

Basically, all the outer space cultures are a combination of 1970's swinger culture overlain with 1940's Colonial Imperialism. Our own culture has gone beyond this kind of mindset, yet after millions of years of development and studying US... the aliens can't do any better?

Let's look at Milton's behavior versus his words:
* paralyzes Mike
* kidnaps Mike
* plays mind games with Mike (the "no doors" bit, no explanations, tossing him in a spacesuit and tossing him out the airlock, dropping him into weird situations)
* medically manipulates him ("seals" his orifices in ways that could prove ultimately harmful) without telling him why
* steals his sperm
* kills him (or causes him to exit his body)
* dumps him in a strange spacestation city without translators or guides
* sets up a "negative translator" so he actually can't speak to other humans (that had to be the lamest setup of the "and this is why everyone's experiences don't match" excuse that I've read in a long time.)
* puts him in legal danger by sending him illegally to another city (Uranus) without translators or guides
* Mike is also used as a "drug mule" to transport objects in his abdomen.

Why doesn't Mike ask himself the question that almost EVERY man I know would have asked: "he's lied and manipulated me all along and NOW I'm supposed to swallow this other claptrap? What's Milton trying to con me into?" Several of them would have punched Milton out.

Then we get to Milton's explainations:

* "Extraterrestrials don't exist in the minds of the vast majority of humans, and we prefer to keep it that way." (Milton hasn't read much public opinion research. For an alien who supposedly is really in tune with Earth, he's not even up on standard opinion polls.)

* "However, not everyone on earth has a purpose, many are incarcerated there, they are criminals from other planets from other solar systems, and some are repeats, criminals from previous lives on earth. Earth is also a vacation destination, many entities--people--are there to enjoy themselves---a few know who they are the rest believe themselves simply fortunate, others, cursed."

So we have a crowded planet with aliens from all over the galaxy meddling and body stealing -- and not a single galactic civilization ANYWHERE stops them or tries to stop them or tries to modify this rather archaic and colonial behavior.

Onward:


We learn Mike is from the same culture/group as Milton.

Then we learn that the Mike/Milton aliens make a practice of taking over the bodies of human babies. ("MIKE- I prefer to wait at least a month before going into a baby’s body; the eyes are more focused by then.")

So Mike(original) is a creepy and manipulative person, just like Milton.

So we know that if Milton-Mike represent the "good guys", the "good guys" like to take their guests and manipulate their bodies and toss them in test situations to see what they will do. So the alien's ethics are basically that of any antisocial psychotic's: "I can do anything to any other being as long as I find it amusing. If it hurts them, well, too bad for them."


AND NOW... Mike tells us he has a special message he was meant to bring to humanity. And we're supposed to believe this guy who's part of a manipulative, colonialist alien group that likes taking over the bodies of our babies and implanting alien fetuses in our women.


Anybody else have a problem with that scenario?

Originally posted by Indellkoffer
And, literary criticism aside, I'd like to tackle some of the suggestions Hank made because I don't believe a word of his "disclosure."

Well, what to expect someone "channeling" an "ET"? They are notorious for spitting out all sorts of contradictory claims and false prophecies. Many, many people claim to have all sorts of messages from "ET", but have any of them produced a single, solitary bit of information that has proveable value? I can't think of any. They all claim to be here to help humanity in some way. They tell us we've got to stop doing this or stop doing that, yet NEVER have they provided a SINGLE concept that would actually help us. Cure for AIDS? Nope. How to feed starving children in Africa? No way. New source of energy? Ha! Time and location of next catastrophe? Forget about it.

If anyone cares to dispute this, simply provide the name of the channeler, name of the entity they were channeling and what benefit was provided. Subjective things "spiritual awareness" don't count.

Originally posted by GLDNGUNWell, what to expect someone "channeling" an "ET"? They are notorious for spitting out all sorts of contradictory claims and false prophecies. Many, many people claim to have all sorts of messages from "ET", but have any of them produced a single, solitary bit of information that has proveable value?

Yes, in spite of your statement, I have read channeled information which has added to my life personally, and I am not alone in this.

But really, how can you relate to what is valuable to humans? Who are you, goldengun? You've made 27 posts here at ATS, and yes, we all know how you feel about sleeper and anybody who doesn't agree with you on what aliens are (you are so msart aren't you?)... But do you have any depth? Have you contributed anything to ATS, let alone the world?

I don't see why you are responding to this thread, particularly since your post adds nothing to what you have already said in this forum.

sleeper appears to be way more informed on a multitude of topics than you are, based on your input at ATS. Thanks sleeper!

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Yes, in spite of your statement, I have read channeled information which has added to my life personally, and I am not alone in this.

That's fine. Neither am I alone in my observation that channeled entities have yet to provide anything of value other than subjective "New Age" advice. They do enjoy contradicting each other, and at times themselves, along with false prophecies.

Who are you, goldengun? You've made 27 posts here at ATS, and yes, we all know how you feel about sleeper and anybody who doesn't agree with you on what aliens are (you are so msart aren't you?)... But do you have any depth? Have you contributed anything to ATS, let alone the world?

Hey, thanks for keeping up on my post count! No, I'm sure I have no depth since I don't drop to my knees at the sight of a channeler and beg him to impart more of his other-worldly "wisdom".

I don't see why you are responding to this thread, particularly since your post adds nothing to what you have already said in this forum.

Must resist temptation to ask you your own question. Must resist...

sleeper appears to be way more informed on a multitude of topics than you are, based on your input at ATS. Thanks sleeper!

Well, hey, I've only had 27 posts, remember? Geez, tough crowd here. LOL

Yes, "Sleeper" has an interesting tale. Long on the New Age stuff and non-existent on any specific detail that can be verified. And he's channeling, remember? He is not the source of much of his "information". Evidently, you consider him "more informed" because he can "tickle your ears" with a fanciful story that has not a single verifiable detail. He has yet to state ONE thing that can be verfied as true that was not already known. Channelers are funny that way.

Of course, that's entirely your choice to put your faith in such things if you wish.

Originally posted by GLDNGUN
Of course, that's entirely your choice to put your faith in such things if you wish.

I don't put faith in anything except that you'll lay off now that the drama is over about sleeper. This thread has no purpose except to sit here and wait for somebody to take a pot shot at him, and I am guessing all the users who do, will be new members with little or no posting experience and who have rarely strayed from this forum.

I have faith that you will flesh out your user account so that it looks as real as sleepers and not like a sock puppet which is being propped up. No really, I believe you are a real person who has no agenda against another member and I have faith you will prove it. That's what I have faith in.

Originally posted by Indellkoffer
And we're supposed to believe this guy

Why are you? This is where all you intellects are going wrong. You all spout about critical thinking and then admit that you think you should be following. These are not the words of a free thinker.

Originally posted by Indellkoffer
Anybody else have a problem with that scenario?

The problem I have is that posters will spend time lashing out at things they don't understand. They are angry because they don't buy it but think they are being asked to believe it...wtf? If that's how we are going to conduct ourselves, I'd spend 24 hours a day arguing most points about most religions but I don't, I leave it because I realise I'm not SUPPOSED to believe it.

I have a question for the moderators...

The last "Is sleeper a fraud" thread I posted in was in the trash bin within 48 hours and the content was better quality than this thread. There was far less spite and even posters here are now referring to the member by his actual name, yet that thread was trashed and this hasn't. My question is regarding consistency. I think a witch hunt is sad and unnecessary. It's a STORY. ffs.

Like I've said previously - - I believe ME.

I have had my own experiences - - I relate to others that believe they have had experiences.

It is not so much that I believe Sleeper's experience - - its that I believe my own - - and relate to Sleeper's experience.

If you saw a UFO - - you can set up a thread to share your experience with others. Even if you include photos - - you still can not prove it. You can not prove an experience. Where's the flack about those threads?

Sleeper is not the only person who believes he had experiences - - and neither am I. There are enough posters on this forum who believe they had some type of contact experience - - this should not be an issue - - because a few don't like it or believe it.



[edit on 6-2-2007 by Annee]