For impatient people I put the conclusion first;

The conclusions of the early US Army investigations as to the truth about the wartime German concentration camps have since been corroborated by all subsequent investigators and can be summarized:
1. The harrowing scenes of dead and dying inmates were not the result of a German policy of "extermination," but rather the result of epidemics of typhus and other disease brought about largely by the effects of Allied aerial attacks.
2. Stories of Nazi supercriminals and sadists who turned Jews and others into handbags and lampshades for their private profit or amusement were sick lies or diseased fantasies; indeed, the German authorities punished corruption and cruelty on the part of camp commanders and guards.
3. On the other hand, portrayals of the newly liberated inmates as saints and martyrs of Hitlerism were quite often very far from the truth; indeed, most of the brutalities inflicted on camp detainees were the work of their fellow prisoners, in contravention of German policy and German orders.
4. The alleged homicidal showers and gas chambers were used either for bathing camp inmates or delousing their clothes; the claim that they were used to murder Jews or other human beings is a contemptible fabrication. Orthodox historians and professional "Nazi-hunters" have quietly dropped claims that inmates were gassed at Dachau, Buchenwald and other camps in Germany. They continue, however, to keep silent regarding the lies about Dachau and Buchenwald, as well as to evade an open discussion of the evidence for homicidal gassing at Auschwitz and the other camps captured by the Soviets.

The beginning;
Nothing has been more effective in establishing the authenticity of the Holocaust story in the minds of Americans than the terrible scenes US troops discovered when they entered German concentration camps at the close of World War II.

At Dachau, Buchenwald, Dora, Mauthausen, and other work and detention camps, horrified US infantrymen encountered heaps of dead and dying inmates, emaciated and diseased. Survivors told them hair-raising stories of torture and slaughter, and backed up their claims by showing the GIs crematory ovens, alleged execution gas chambers, supposed implements of torture, and even shrunken heads and lampshades, gloves, and handbags purportedly made from skin flayed from dead inmates.

US government authorities, mindful that many Americans who remembered the atrocity stories fed them during World War I still doubted the Allied propaganda directed against the Hitler regime, resolved to "document" what the GIs had found in the camps. Prominent newsmen and politicians were flown in to see the harrowing evidence, while the US Army Signal Corps filmed and photographed the scenes for posterity. Famous journalist Edward R. Murrow reported, in tones of horror, but no longer of disbelief, what he had been told and shown, and Dachau and Buchenwald were branded on the hearts and minds of the American populace as names of infamy unmatched in the sad and bloody history of this planet.

For Americans, what was "discovered" at the camps -- the dead and the diseased, the terrible stories of the inmates, all the props of torture and terror -- became the basis not simply of a transitory propaganda campaign but of the conviction that, yes, it was true: the Germans did exterminate six million Jews, most of them in lethal gas chambers.

What the GIs found was used, by way of films that were mandatory viewing for the vanquished populace of Germany, to "re-educate" the German people by destroying their national pride and their will to a united, independent national state, imposing in their place overwhelming feelings of collective guilt and political impotence. And when the testimony, and the verdict, of the Nuremberg Tribunal incorporated most, if not all, of the horror stories Americans were told about Dachau, Buchenwald, and other places captured by the US Army, the Holocaust could pass for one of the most documented, one of the most authenticated, one of the most proven historical episodes in the human record.

continues...

part 2
But it is known today that, very soon after the liberation of the camps, American authorities were aware that the real story of the camps was quite different from the one in which they were coaching military public information officers, government spokesmen, politicians, journalists, and other mouthpieces.

When American and British forces overran western and central Germany in the spring of 1945, they were followed by troops charged with discovering and securing any evidence of German war crimes.

Among them was Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors. [1]

Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." [2] And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, [3] confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered." [4]

Typhus, Not Poison Gas

If not by gassing, how did the unfortunate victims at Dachau, Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen perish? Were they tortured to death or deliberately starved? The answers to these questions are known as well.

As Dr. Larson and other Allied medical men discovered, the chief cause of death at Dachau, Belsen and the other camps was disease, above all typhus, an old and terrible scourge of mankind that until recently flourished in places where populations were crowded together in circumstances where public health measures were unknown or had broken down. Such was the case in the overcrowded internment camps in Germany at war's end, where, despite such measures as systematic delousing, quarantine of the sick and cremation of the dead, the virtual collapse of Germany's food, transport, and public health systems led to catastrophe.

Perhaps the most authoritative statement of the facts as to typhus and mortality in the camps has been made by Dr. John E. Gordon, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of preventive medicine and epidemiology at the Harvard University School of Public Health, who was with US forces in Germany in 1945. Dr. Gordon reported in 1948 that "The outbreaks in concentration camps and prisons made up the great bulk of typhus infection encountered in Germany." Dr. Gordon summarized the causes for the outbreaks as follows: [5]
continues ...

part 3
Germany in the spring months of April and May [1945] was an astounding sight, a mixture of humanity travelling this way and that, homeless, often hungry and carrying typhus with them ...

Germany was in chaos. The destruction of whole cities and the path left by advancing armies produced a disruption of living conditions contributing to the spread of the disease. Sanitation was low grade, public utilities were seriously disrupted, food supply and food distribution was poor, housing was inadequate and order and discipline were everywhere lacking. Still more important, a shifting of populations was occurring such as few countries and few times have experienced.


Dr. Gordon's findings are corroborated by Dr. Russell Barton, today a psychiatrist of international repute, who entered Bergen-Belsen with British forces as a young medical student in 1945. Barton, who volunteered to care for the diseased survivors, testified under sworn oath in a Toronto courtroom in 1985 that "Thousands of prisoners who died at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during World War II weren't deliberately starved to death but died from a rash of diseases." [6]

Dr. Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.

Despite noisily publicized claims and widespread popular notions to the contrary, no researcher has been able to document a German policy of extermination through starvation in the German camps.

What of the ghoulish stories of concentration camp inmates skinned for their tattoos, flayed to make lampshades and handbags, or other artifacts? What of the innumerable "torture racks," "meathooks," whipping posts, gallows, and other tools of torment and death that are reported to have abounded at every German camp? These allegations, and even more grotesque ones proffered by Soviet prosecutors, found their way into the record at Nuremberg.

The lampshade and tattooed-skin charges were made against Ilse Koch, dubbed by journalists the "Bitch of Buchenwald," who was reported to have furnished her house with objects manufactured from the tanned hides of luckless inmates.
continues ....

[edit on 30-1-2007 by Ghaele]

But General Lucius Clay, military governor of the US zone of occupied Germany, who reviewed her case in 1948, told his superiors in Washington: "There is no convincing evidence that she [Ilse Koch] selected inmates for extermination in order to secure tattooed skins or that she possessed any articles made of human skin." [7] In an interview General Clay gave years later, he stated about the material for the infamous lampshades: "Well, it turned out actually that it was goat flesh. But at the trial it was still human flesh. It was almost impossible for her to have gotten a fair trial." [8] Ilse Koch hanged herself in a German jail in 1967.

It would be tedious to itemize and refute the thousands of bizarre claims as to Nazi atrocities. That there were instances of German cruelty, however, is clear from the testimony of Dr. Konrad Morgen, a legal investigator attached to the Reich Criminal Police, whose statements on the witness stand at Nuremberg have never been challenged by proponents of the Jewish Holocaust story. Dr. Morgen informed the court that he had been given full authority by Heinrich Himmler, commander of Hitler's SS and the dread Gestapo, to enter any German concentration camp and investigate instances of cruelty and corruption on the part of camp personnel.

As he explained in sworn testimony at Nuremberg, Dr. Morgen investigated 800 such cases, resulting in more than 200 convictions. [9] Punishments included the death penalty for the worst offenders, including Hermann Florstedt, commandant of Lublin (Majdanek), and Karl Koch (Ilse's husband), commandant of Buchenwald.

While German camp commandants in certain cases did inflict physical punishment, such acts had to be approved by authorities in Berlin, and it was required that a camp physician first certify the good health of the prisoner to be disciplined, and then be on hand at the actual beating. [10] After all, throughout most of the war the camps were important centers of industrial activity. The good health and morale of the prisoners was critical to the German war effort, as is evidenced in a January 1943 order issued by SS General Richard Glücks, chief of the office that supervised the concentration camps. It held the camp commanders "personally responsible for exhausting every possibility to preserve the physical strength of the detainees." [11]

In December 1944 US Army officers Colonel Paul Kirk and Lt. Colonel Edward J. Gully inspected the German concentration camp at Struthof-Natzweiler in Alsace. They submitted their findings to their superiors, who subsequently forwarded their report to the US War Crimes Division. While, significantly, the full text of their report has never been published, it has been revealed, by a historian supportive of Holocaust claims, that the two investigators were careful to characterize equipment exhibited to them by French informants as a "so-called lethal gas chamber," and to claim it was "allegedly used as a lethal gas chamber." [15] (Emphasis added)

Both the careful phraseology of the Natzweiler report, and its effective suppression, stand in stark contrast to the credulity, the confusion, and the blaring publicity that accompanied official reports of alleged gas chambers at Dachau. At first, a US Army photo depicting a GI gazing at a steel door marked with a skull and crossbones and the German words for: "Caution! Gas! Mortal danger! Don't open!," was identified as showing the murder weapon. [16]


[edit on 30-1-2007 by Ghaele]

Later, however, it was evidently decided that the apparatus in question was merely a standard delousing chamber for clothing, and another alleged gas chamber, this one cunningly disguised as a shower room, was exhibited to American congressmen and journalists as the site where thousands breathed their last. While there exist numerous reports in the press as to the operation of this second "gas chamber," no official report by trained Army investigators has yet surfaced to reconcile such problems as the function of the shower heads: Were they "dummies," or did lethal cyanide gas stream through them? (Each theory has appreciable support in journalistic and historiographical literature.)

As with Dachau, so with Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, and the other camps liberated by the Allies in western Germany. There was no end of propaganda about "gas chambers," "gas ovens," and the like, but so far not a single detailed description of the murder weapon and its function, not a single report of the kind that is mandatory for the successful prosecution of any assault or murder case in America at that time and today, has come to light.

Furthermore, a number of Holocaust authorities have now publicly decreed that there were no gassings, no extermination camps in Germany after all. (We are now told that "gassing" and "extermination" camps were located exclusively in what is now Poland, in areas captured by the Soviet Red Army and made off-limits to western investigators.)

Dr. Martin Broszat of the Munich-based Institute for Contemporary History, which is funded by the German government, stated categorically in a 1960 letter to the German weekly Die Zeit: "Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoners gassed." [17] Professional "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal stated in 1975 and again in 1993 that "there were no extermination camps on German soil." [18]

Dachau "gas chamber" No. 2, which was once presented to a stunned and grieving world as a weapon that claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, is now described in the brochure issued to tourists at the modern Dachau "memorial site" in these words: "This gas chamber, camouflaged as a shower room, was not used." [19]

More than 50 years after American troops entered Dachau, Buchenwald and other German camps, and trained American investigators established the facts as to what had gone on in them, the government in Washington, the entertainment media in Hollywood, and the print media in New York continue to churn out millions of words and images annually on the horrors of the camps and the infamy of the Holocaust. Despite the fact that, with the exception of the defeated Confederacy, no enemy of America has ever so suffered so complete and devastating defeat as did Germany in 1945, the mass media and the politicians and bureaucrats behave as if Hitler, his troops, and his concentration camps continue to exist in an eternal present, and our opinion makers continue to distort, through ignorance or malice, the facts about the camps.

Time for the Truth

It is time that the government and the professional historians reveal the facts about Dachau, Buchenwald and the other camps. It is time they let the American public know how the inmates died, and how they didn't die. It is time that the claims of mass murder by gassing are clarified and investigated in the same manner as any other claims of murder. It is time that the free ride certain groups have enjoyed as the result of unchallenged Holocaust claims be terminated, just as it is time to end the scapegoating of other groups, including Germans, eastern Europeans, the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and the wartime leadership of America and Britain, either for their alleged role in the Holocaust or their supposed failure to stop it.

Above all, it is time that the citizens of this great Republic have the facts about the camps, facts they have a right to know, a right that is fundamental to the exercise of their authority and their will in the governance of their country. As citizens and as taxpayers, Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, of all faiths, have a basic right and an overriding interest in determining the facts of incidents that are deemed by those in positions of power to be significant in determining America's foreign and educational policy, as well as its selection of past events to be memorialized in our civic life.

Today the alleged facts of the Holocaust are at issue all over the civilized world. The truth will be decided only by recourse to the facts, in the public forum: not by concealing the facts, denying the truth, stonewalling reality. The truth will out, and it is time the government of this country, and governments and international bodies throughout the world, make public the evidence of what actually transpired in the German concentration camps in the years 1933-1945, so that we may put paid to the lies, without fear or favor, and carry out the work of reconciliation and renewal that is and must be the granite foundation of mutual tolerance between peoples and of a peace based on justice.


[edit on 30-1-2007 by Ghaele]

So, there. It is done. And we did not have to travel to Germany to find documents debunking the gassing of jew fantasy. In Germany one would have been arrested and faced 5 years of prison for such an investigation that concluded that there were no gas chambers.

ATS has debunked many things over the years. Now it was time to put WW2 rumors behind us. Germany were a dictatorstate, but the germans themself were innocent. Of this, anyway.

As the revisionists have already for a long time said, WWII must be rewritten. Let us do that in this thread. Interested?

I'll bite!

Simply: You are dead wrong.

You are employing most if not all of the arguments of the mainstream Holocaust Deniers. A great many of these arguments are known to be 'suspect' at best.

WW2 is a pet project of mine and even without any of your American investigators, the evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming from contemporary German sources alone. Himmler, the SS and the camp commandants were all (mostly) meticulous record keepers. There is enough evidence in Himmlers SS archives alone to prove mass exterminations went on. Hitler may well have tried to distance himself from any evidence but Himmler did not.

Adolf Eichmann in Berlin listed 1,274,166 Jews killed in the four camps of Aktion Reinhard during 1942 alone.

Sure a great many of those imprisoned in death camps (not only jews) died of disease. That was just a bonus to the Nazis.

I suggest you take a trip to Auschwitz and some of the other places for yourself like I have. You'll learn something from the places and the people you will meet.

But please don't spew out more of this regurgitated hokum. Do some research for yourself rather than let other people put their words into your mouth.

Originally posted by kickoutthejams
I'll bite!

Simply: You are dead wrong.

You are employing most if not all of the arguments of the mainstream Holocaust Deniers. A great many of these arguments are known to be 'suspect' at best.

WW2 is a pet project of mine and even without any of your American investigators, the evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming from contemporary German sources alone. Himmler, the SS and the camp commandants were all (mostly) meticulous record keepers. There is enough evidence in Himmlers SS archives alone to prove mass exterminations went on. Hitler may well have tried to distance himself from any evidence but Himmler did not.

Adolf Eichmann in Berlin listed 1,274,166 Jews killed in the four camps of Aktion Reinhard during 1942 alone.

Sure a great many of those imprisoned in death camps (not only jews) died of disease. That was just a bonus to the Nazis.

I suggest you take a trip to Auschwitz and some of the other places for yourself like I have. You'll learn something from the places and the people you will meet.

But please don't spew out more of this regurgitated hokum. Do some research for yourself rather than let other people put their words into your mouth.

I am out of WATS votes for this month or else I would give you one.

Originally posted by kickoutthejams
1. A great many of these arguments are known to be 'suspect' at best.
2. Himmler, the SS and the camp commandants were all (mostly) meticulous record keepers. There is enough evidence in Himmlers SS archives alone to prove mass exterminations went on.
3. Sure a great many of those imprisoned in death camps (not only jews) died of disease. That was just a bonus to the Nazis.
4. I suggest you take a trip to Auschwitz and some of the other places for yourself like I have. You'll learn something from the places and the people you will meet.
5. But please don't spew out more of this regurgitated hokum. Do some research for yourself rather than let other people put their words into your mouth.

1 American documents suspect? So the americans did not look for war criminals then? You are obviously mistaken.

2 Or these documents are falsehoods or taken to mean something they do not.

3 If they wanted the campmates dead, then why did they spend alot of effort and time to move campmates away when the russians came? The germans knew the russians were coming 6 months before they actually did, so they could have shot and hanged the inmates if that had been their goals. No, the american document testify that if anyone was cruel to the inmates, it was the inmates themselves.

4 What would be the point of going there and be told lies of what we see? Take a closer look at descriptions of how the camps looked like from the eyewithnesses you accept today and then go see if it really looked like that. The existing accepted eyewithnesses cannot get any facts straight; most of them are contradictionary, and many so called witnesses has later admitted they never was there.

5 Why do you not see the truth? Someone got to be lying. As those eyewitnesses claiming gassing went on later, in court, admits they never was there it is clear for me at last who is doing the lying.

Learn to think. Don't accept something just because its repeated over and over. But then I guess I expect too much of people...

i agree with the OP, that the truth must be revealed.

i think many people that support the holocausts existence, refuse to believe in the shear power of a propaganda machine. unfortunately this is far beyond being brought to light. this incident is more than history now its also a moral story, "the wicked shall fall".


im glad a few people are willing to find the truth


the fact is NO military behaves the way the nazis were portrayed to have been.

Are we saying that the holocaust never happened. I don't know enough about the concentration camps to counter this.

So what were the Einsatzgruppen doing or even the documented case history of FeldGendarmerie Abteilung 101 whos survivors freely admitted to murdering 50,000+ men, women and children in Belarussia between July and November 1941.

Is that not an attempt at genocide, either way are we debating about numbers or whether the holocaust happened at all.

.

[edit on 4-2-2007 by carslake]

i my self have not made a final verdict on the subject, but i do feel alot of the claims that came out of the incident were fabrications.

its true some soldiers/officers mistreated their occupants of the camps, but this happens every where even still today. im not saying they werent wrong becuase its a common occurrence, but the total claims of the incident far exceed mere captive mistreatment.

as Ghaele has shown within this thread, what we have been told is not the truth.



[edit on 5/2/07 by Glyph_D]

Ghaele I think it's a little disingenuous to talk about 'seeing the truth' unless you examine the source material itself (i.e. German / SS records) not just the American perspective immediately post war.

There were reasons why some of the details of the nazi holocaust were smoothed over by America in order to ease the path of scientists, technicians, doctors and knowledge that came out of it. The outcry would have been possibly too great if the truth were fully known and Operation PAPERCLIP and associated programs was hard enough with many of the rendered personnel being unrepetentant in their views.

Personally I do think, I have no agenda here and an open mind. I have researched a great many aspects of WW2 and there is undeniable evidence of atrocity perpetrated by the NAZIS in their camps against Jews and others alike. Not only in the camps but also as part of a consistent extermination policy carried out by einsatzkommando units. The details of regular Werhmacht officers coming up against these units and making formal complaints about them is extant and widespread for example.

Yes the SS used many units made up of non-germans to do their dirty work. Belgians, French, Ukrainians, Norwegians, Romanians etc. Just as there were fighting SS divisions made up of these nationals also.

The arguments you are putting forward are lifted off wikipedia as rank and file holocaust denial material. Perhaps YOU should do some genuine research of your own rather than put forward known and discredited material.

Hi Ghaele., There is suspicion as to who was really rspsonsible for the Holocaust, was it just the Germans, was it Zionists who were willing to sacrifice their own people to make the state of Israel we may never know.

I dont agree with people not being able to debate the Holocaust, its a very interesting subject in human nature but one thing is for sure the Germans killed millions, how they did it is largely irrelevant. They murdered their own people, and anyone who they saw as inferior or a threat to them.

That is Historic, and Germans today still feel that guilt of what was done in their name, its not because of what the occupying powers told them its because they knew it to be true. The German populace were not as starved of information like many think. Even in Berlin throughout the war years their were good human beings with morals who hid and protected Jewish families and the same happened throughout Germany.

My wife (she is part German) and I visit Germany several times a year and as one poster has already stated maybe you should visit the country and the sites, I think you will find it quite a sobering experience.

Originally posted by kickoutthejams
I'll bite!

Simply: You are dead wrong.

Well deserved................

You have voted kickoutthejams for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by kickoutthejams

I suggest you take a trip to Auschwitz and some of the other places for yourself like I have. You'll learn something from the places and the people you will meet.

Well technically all you will learn is the official story behind what happened that everyone is forced to abide by, since it is a crime to make even the slightest suggestion that the official story is wrong how can you not question it.

There a saying (and people are very selective of its use) History is a tale told by the victors.

If the official story is true why is questioning it outlawed? Surely if there is nothing to hide people should be allowed to question it, if theres nothing to hide they will eventually come to the conclusion that the official story is what happened.

There is one and only one reason you make a law to stop people questioning/discussing and exploring things and that is to suppress them from the truth.