Border Patrol Shoots, Kills Illegal Immigrant; FBI Investigates

lol, kk

When Mexicans start crossing the border with Ak-47's and killing everything in sight, I don't wanna hear it! Viva La Resistancia! Let's just nuke them and get it over with, jeez.

Just because those are the statutes, regen, doesn't mean I agree with them or should. An escalation of arms and use of force has occurred in this country, and I'm talking against the common man. Not against gangs or the mob. Just in everyday biz. If you agree with those statutes, that's up to you.

I might raise a rock in frustration too if you stood between me and gainful employment for self and family after I just travelled a zillion miles, starving, only to be stopped by you at the gate. When you shoot me over it, may it rest on your conscience. Forever.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Letting a foriegn governement have access to that prisoner was insane. This needs to be completely thrown out because of that fact.

This is a very key point that is not being debated. That supervisor's actions likely compromised the investigation, and the agent could face jail time as a result.

The BP union is calling for the supervisor's firing, and I agree.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
lol, kk

When Mexicans start crossing the border with Ak-47's and killing everything in sight, I don't wanna hear it! Viva La Resistancia! Let's just nuke them and get it over with, jeez.

Ever hear of MS-13?

Originally posted by jsobecky
Ever hear of MS-13?

From MSNBC:

Composed of mostly Salvadorans and other Central Americans—many of them undocumented—the gang has a uniquely international profile, with an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 members in 33 states in the United States (out of more than 700,000 gang members overall), and tens of thousands more in Central America. It's considered the fastest-growing, most violent and least understood of the nation's street gangs—in part because U.S. law enforcement has not been watching as closely as it might have. As authorities have focused their attention on the war against terrorism, MS-13 has proliferated.

MS-13 got started in Los Angeles in the 1980s by Salvadorans fleeing a civil war. Many of the kids grew up surrounded by violence. Del Hendrixson of Bajito Onda, a gang-outreach program, remembers an MS-13 member who recounted one of his earliest memories: guarding the family's crops at the age of 4, armed with a machete, alone at night. When he and others reached the mean streets of the L.A. ghetto, Mexican gangs preyed on them. The newcomers' response: to band together in a mara, or "posse," composed of salvatruchas, or "street-tough Salvadorans" (the "13" is a gang number associated with southern California).

Over time, the gang's ranks grew, adding former paramilitaries with weapons training and a taste for atrocity. MS-13 eventually adopted a variety of rackets, from extortion to drug trafficking. When law enforcement cracked down and deported planeloads of members, the deportees quickly created MS-13 outposts in El Salvador and neighboring countries like Honduras and Guatemala.

Not sure exactly how you are tying this in, jso...They are mostly from El Salvador?

I hear this same argument every time theres a law enforcement related shooting, and around here (NYC) there are a lot. It always comes down to the same thing, emotions versus procedure.

We need to look at this with no emotions attached. This border patrol official was a marine and that says a lot about his character and how he approaches his job. As a marine he follows directions, orders and regulations, when faced with a problem he instinctively relies on his training.

Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows that when an officer of the law gives you a direct order you're following it one way or another. In America we have a very strong legal system which is designed to hear any complaints you may have about your situation. When you're in the process of being arrested you SHOULD NOT choose that time to register your complaint with the arresting officer.

The death of this illegal alien, while tragic, is not at all the fault of the officer.

If the illegal alien had followed the orders and gotten in the van he would be alive to this day.

The officer was doing his job, he arrested illegal aliens. When he was threatened by the illegal alien he did his job.

The officer ordered the Mexican to drop the rock and get in the van. The Mexican refused, the officer probably ordered him again, and the Mexican refused.

The officer followed procedure and regulations and fired one shot into the prisoner and neutralized the threat.

The officer did his job and was acting completely within the law. End of discussion.

It's horrible that this respectable and upstanding American Citizen is going to have his life and career ruined by apologetic American politicians and rebel rousing two faced Mexican politicians. I honestly feel sorry for him.

Not sure exactly how you are tying this in, jso...They are mostly from El Salvador?

I doubt they took public transportation and checked in at Customs to get here is my point.

I like how the idiots are talking about this and going on about how we should "set up gas chambers" and so forth like a nitwit. It's great.

Also people going ,"Aim for the limb!" And even better, "He could have dodged the rock!"

It's simple. The person was not responding to commands and about to use potentially deadly force. In a situation of either an illegal Mexican explicitly violating the law and verbal commands or a U.S. Marine trying to enforce them, I think I just might pick the U.S. Marine.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Everyone, and I mean everyone, knows that when an officer of the law gives you a direct order you're following it one way or another.

Well, you're giving the board too much credit here. Just read the thread about the guy who refused to show his ID to University police. To read that thread, one would think the jackboots are ready to descend on our heads. To some, it's a sort of civic duty to resist authority before you comply with an order.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Rivera picked up a rock, according to Judd, and cocked his arm to throw it from about 10 feet away.

The agent, a former Marine, says he killed Rivera with a single shot when he failed to answer commands to put the rock down.

"Assuming he had a stone, should you shoot somebody who picks up a stone?" asked Francisco Gaxiola, an attorney for the Mexican consulate. "If the witness statements are true, it was totally unjustified. There was no reason to shoot Rivera. He had his hands up. He was not threatening anybody."

Border agents got to be tough, no doubt. But if he already had three in the car, and this one picks up a rock, why didn't the agent blast him in the leg or try to shoot him in the right shoulder or something? Did he have to kill him? You tellin me the mexican guy is going to still try to throw a rock with a bullet hole in him, bleeding profusely? Somehow I doubt that.

These guys need to do their job under extreme circumstances, for sure. But the way that article presents it, it seems like excessive use of force to me. It'd be different if the illegals were ALL armed or something. But nuh uh. I feel he needs to be prosecuted, and least let this go to trial. Enforcement agents have to use extremely good judgement every day, and they are trained to do so. But maybe there is more to the story than is being published. And given that it is FoxNews, I have no doubt there probably is.

This isn't the movies ... police officers don't show to disable people they shoot to kill. There is a reason it is called deadly force. Officers are trained to shoot for center body mass ... the most disabling area and also the easiest to hit. A five pound rock could do some serious damage and so long as the officer can articulate that he was in fear for his life he is justified.

To put this in context if you awoke and found an intruder in your home and grabbed your gun telling him to leave. Instead he grabs a small lamp and advances on him. You kill him, you're justified. You don't and you might be dead.

And I like how the heartless and uncompassionate, not to mention T&C violators, waltz in here only to point out AGAIN what has already been said previously in the thread, on some kind of self-agrandizing escapade to try and appear read worthy. It's great.

I can't believe anyone would find this law enforcement agent at fault. He simply followed his training precedures and neutralized a threat. End of story.

i would just like to ask those that feel he should have "aimed for the leg arm or (my favorite) the hand"...have you ever fired a handgun?

if so, have you ever fired on a movign target? in low light conditions?

its not easy...you aim for the chest becuase its the biggest target.

i qualified expert in the army with the 9mm, and i tell you one thing for sure, 2 in teh chest. during competitin they go a step further and do 2 to the chest 1 to the head (body armor) and thats not all that easy when you are pumped up and trying to fire fast and your targets moving and you feel theres an immediate danger to your personal health and well being.

if its him or me...sorry but its him.

Should he have killed him? Probably not but because you wern't there there is no way to know how you would react or how you think the officer should have reacted. If the illegal had knocked him out with the rock which is completly possible, after the officer was subdued the illegal who was killed would have been able to free his compadres and get away or hurt the officer while he was knocked out.
Maybe he got excited and was aiming for his shoulder and accidently hit him in the head, we dont know. Although the loss of human life is sad, the Illegals trying to come accross the border might now realise that the prospect of jumping our border could be deadly. I'm behind the officer on this one. Maybe if the officer had been working with a partner this would'nt have happend. The illegal should have know not to bring a rock to a gun fight.

With the recent contraversey over the national guards having their hands tied, (was on CNN the other night ) I wonder if this will give them more freedom to react to situations like this.

Currently the national guard represents nothing more than 'window dressing' on the borders.

They are not allowed to engage, detain, or apprehend any suspects. They can only call in the border patrol and advise them of the situation at hand.

On the other hand, could something like this restrict having deadly force on the border and hamper their efforts even further?

One question,

Was this BP agent alone? if so, why?

Shouldn't they be patrolling in pairs.

It was self defense, plain and simple. When police are threatened, they're going to shoot to kill.

ON TOPIC: Do not be fooled, it's martial law. Inside US borders.

I used to be for having Reservists act as border patrol guards for their two-week deployments, but that was a long time ago (before this war) when I just thought it was a sensible thing to do. They're usually sent somewhere where they play cards all day.

Now I see it's Martial Law. And it's coming to a territory near you.

Watched the old 1940 movie "Arizona" last night. Black and White but still great cinematography, it was shot at the Old Columbia Studios in Tucson (which regrettably burned back in the 90's).

Anyhoo, there was a scene where Edgar Buchanan, the town judge (remember Uncle Joe from the Beverly Hillbillies and Pettycoat Junction?), reads the notice posted by the Colonel of the Union forces, (newly arrived in Tucson from California), to the town folk gathered around to see what will happen to Law and Order when the cavalry arrives.

His first remark: "It's Martial Law"

This movie was set in the early 1860's just before and during the American Civil War when Arizona was becoming a US territory (settlers from the east). You caught glimpses of several indigenous people including a small Mexican boy asking to water the horses. A very young William Holden (playing our hero first riding into town) was grateful for the offer.

Release Date:
25 Dec 1940
Premiere Information:
Arizona premiere: 15 Nov 1940
Production Date:
5 Apr--27 Jul 1940 at Old Tucson Studios, Tucson, AZ

It's just the kind of Hollywoodized history that you can actually learn a few things from--wagon train ambushes complete with villians selling guns. The b&w scenery indeed looked harsh.


Catchphrase from this movie: "Well, I'll be dogged"
(it's martial law)

Any illegal is a foreign invader unprotected by any constitutional right and should be treated as such.

Absolutely John Mike. All this is going to do is install fear inside the BP when it comes to using their firearms. I have family high up in this organization and I can tell you it is frightening how the US government has failed at backing them up. I know of one person who suggested of a good way to save money in INS: stop issuing firearms and firearms training. What is the point if you refuse to back your own people guarding the border?

Yeah. I don't think that shooting them should be the first option, hatred won't help, but people are forgetting that being an American citizen actually means something. Everyone assumes that rights are free. How wrong they are, sadly, and I fear that in time it will end badly... No one appreciates anything they have, or even realizes just how rare it is.

The American dream, though commonly referenced, is a thing of the past, I do think. But part of it still lives on, and I feel that I would defend it with my life.

[edit on 31-1-2007 by Johnmike]