America is NOT a "Christian Nation"

“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
— The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams, and unanimously approved by the Senate.

hmmm

furthermore
How many of these founding fathers – Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Franklin, Washington - were Christian?
Answer: none.

How many of our first six presidents were Christian?
Answer: none.
all were deists

"A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some."
— Harry A. Blackmun, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, majority opinion in Lee v. Weisman, 1992

ok, discuss

source
Atheists of Silcon Valley

Steven Morris complains that the Religious Right is rewriting American history to bolster a political agenda. Very true, but secular fundamentalists such as himself are doing the same thing. For secular fundies such as Morris, their low point came in 2004 with the re-election of George Bush.

So you are only partially correct and insomuch as that they didnt believe what church doctrine had established, not that there is no God. They were not atheists.

for more info, check this out:

www.sullivan-county.com...


[edit on 27-1-2007 by XphilesPhan]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

So you are only partially correct and insomuch as that they didnt believe what church doctrine had established, not that there is no God. They were not atheists.

i didn't claim they were atheists
DEISTS
that's what i said they were
they believe in a divine clockmaker, nothing more

however, my source is from an atheist group

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i didn't claim they were atheists
DEISTS
that's what i said they were
they believe in a divine clockmaker, nothing more

however, my source is from an atheist group

Ok, I see where I got confused here.

I would argue that religon played a pivotal role in the formation of the US despite some of its founders believing differently.

However, they did not wish to repeat the mistakes that had occured in England where a king or queen declared themselves head of a state owned and operated church. The problems that insued between the reformationists and the roman catholics caused a hell of a stir for a quite awhile in england.

So the founding fathers insisted on a seperation between church and state and to not sponsor a specific religion.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by XphilesPhan]

posted by madnessinmysoul

“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams, and unanimously approved by the Senate . . hmmm . .

"A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Harry A. Blackmun, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, in the majority opinion in Lee v. Weisman, 1992. From “Atheists of Silicon Valley” [Edited by Don W]

I if was a Christian, I’d be ashamed, I’d be embarrassed at what America does to the poor and helpless at home and around the world.

In response to a question, Jesus said, “There are but 2 commandments. Love God with all your heart, and love your fellow man as you love yourself.”

I’m just finishing a very good book on this topic which I can recommend to everyone because it sounds very objective and balanced to me. It has scores of footnotes and references. See “American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers and the Making of a Nation,“ by Jon Meacham.


[edit on 1/27/2007 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite


I if was a Christian, I’d be ashamed, I’d be embarrassed at what America does to the poor and helpless at home and around the world.

I am a Christian and I'm ashamed at what America does to the poor and helpless at home. Welfare, foodstamps, Social Security, subsidized housing and education, the list goes on and on. All these programs do is keep the poor poor. The welfare state is a trap, and once hooked it is almost impossible to escape.

As for the world...what do you want? Another billion dollars for AIDS prevention? America gives and gives, but never receives nothing in return.

“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
— The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams, and unanimously approved by the Senate.

I think that pretty much settles it. There's always wiggle room, since the founders werent' explicit about not being a 'christian nation' prior to this, indeed, why would the question even arise? Its a nation where there is freedom of thought, freedom of religion, and a limited, weak, government. The founders had known what religious rule did, they only needed to look to the papal states to see a christian nation, or to england, and they completely rejected both. They wanted a secular, liberal, republic. None of that reads as 'christian nation'. The most famous of hte founders were Deists even, who today would be derided as 'secular progressives' by people like bill o'reilly, or called 'the reason why god was angry and caused 911 in america' by some religious leaders. But even with that, there's allways room fore debate on the subject. But with the above, there really was no longer any question, the founders were explicitly saying 'this is NOT a christian nation, just incase there was any question'.

Hey, madnessinmysoul

Here is a thread in which I discussed the meaning of the term "Christian Nation". I wanted to know this: -- IF people consider it a Christian Nation, what were the ramifications and implications of that? What does it mean to be a Christian Nation.

It's pretty interesting.

www.abovepolitics.com...

just something to add to the wording of the treaty
it actually goes on further to say that america is also not an islamic or judaic nation
which would completely rule out the whole "under god" thing in the pledge
seeing as we aren't a nation of the abrahamic monotheistic religions

I don't think that America is in the true sense of the word a Christian nation. It is however ruled by a government that places Christian values above others. And in my experience, alot of American Christians seem to feel that they are somehow superior to other people, and can be quite intolerant of others.

Originally posted by JackofBlades
I don't think that America is in the true sense of the word a Christian nation. It is however ruled by a government that places Christian values above others. And in my experience, alot of American Christians seem to feel that they are somehow superior to other people, and can be quite intolerant of others.

JoB, i agree with you whole-heartedly
some of our best policies come from christian values
however
values and religion are two different things
those same policies could reflect the values of islam and buddhism as well

PS
amazing avatar
KREE!

source
Atheists of Silcon Valley

Yeah, first of all, this article's got to be just a bit biased, no?

The term "Christian Nation" is being misinterpreted. People seeking to pursue their faith and escape religious persecution from the kind of England migrated to America to set up their own churches and colonies where people were of similar faith.

Manifest destiny was the idea that God had given America the right to stretch from sea to shining sea.

The world's changed a lot since the 1600's-1800's and with all the new immigrants, we have tons of different religions. I can understand why someone would think "Christian Nation" would be inaccurate, but you kind of have to think past today.

Firstly, madness, you are neither completely right nor completely wrong. The founding fathers were Freemasons, which technically does not necessarily fall under the heading of Christian. It can, but it doesn't explicitly.

Now, you look at someone like Jefferson.. To say that he was not Christian would not be truthful,but, to say that he was Christian in the orthodox sense certainly wouldn't be truthful either. I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Jefferson Bible, but it is essentially the New Testament stripped of the miracles of Christ. Its complete focus is on his teachings, which, contrary to what some say, is what Christianity should be focused on.

Anyway, back on topic. :shk:

Now, I am not sure what you hope to point out with this thread. All of those you named were certainly deist. People who did believe in a supreme being.

To say though, that there are not Judeo-Christian values behind the constitution would definitely be in error. Life, liberty, freedom, et cetera, were all principles that original Christianity was meant to represent.

Like I said,I am not sure where you want this thread to go, or even what point you are trying to make....

speaker, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness aren't CHRISTIAN ideals, they are LOCKIAN ideals, springing from the political philosophies of john locke. we just switched out the word "property" for "pursuit of happiness" to greater embody the ideals set up in locke's own philosophies.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
speaker, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness aren't CHRISTIAN ideals, they are LOCKIAN ideals, springing from the political philosophies of john locke. we just switched out the word "property" for "pursuit of happiness" to greater embody the ideals set up in locke's own philosophies.

Let's talk about where Locke got his ideas. Have you ever read Hobbes' Leviathan? Now, where do you suppose Hobbes got the name Leviathan from? Uh, it's all over the bible. Now, many of the "Lockian" ideas that you cite actually derived from Hobbes... Now, no doubt,Hobbes was a political philosopher, but what religion do you suppose he was?

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Let's talk about where Locke got his ideas. Have you ever read Hobbes' Leviathan? Now, where do you suppose Hobbes got the name Leviathan from? Uh, it's all over the bible. Now, many of the "Lockian" ideas that you cite actually derived from Hobbes... Now, no doubt,Hobbes was a political philosopher, but what religion do you suppose he was?

um, wow, you show a clear misunderstanding of locke and hobbes
they both had 2 completely different ideas

hell, their view of human nature was completely different
hobbes viewed humanity as animalistic and primal, needing an absolute sovreign to maintain order by any means necessary.

locke viewed people as neutral at birth and influenced by their surroundings, needing the government to simply safeguard life, liberty, and property. this idea of human's being born neutral doesn't jive with christiantiy in any way

oh, and hobbes was also a hard line atheist... classical allusion does not a christian make

]

[edit on 7-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Wait,wait... I am confusing Hobbe's with someone else...Damn...Hold on.. How bout some crow for breakfast?

[edit on 7-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Damn.... You know what I think I am doing... I am supplanting Locke for Kant... Kant and Hobbes were somewhat similar,not Locke and Hobbes... Damn.. Well, I have to admit it,I was wrong. I still want to say that there was a predecessor to Locke but I can't think right now.

[edit on 7-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]