Where do you think Atlantis is or was?

Also, again (this for the second time,) it is Plato that describes the island chain, not me.

yes
lets read it together

There was an island opposite the strait which you call the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar), an island larger than Libya (Africa) and Asia combined; from it travellers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean. For the sea within the strait we were talking about is like a lake with a narrow entrance (the Mediterranean sea); the outer ocean is the real ocean and the land which entirely surrounds it is properly termed continent. On this island of Atlantis had arisen a powerful and remarkable dynasty of kings, who ruled the whole island, and many other islands as well and parts of the continent;

Plato states "other islands"
you state "island chain"
fi only
this is an island chain

found using the google images with the search string "island chain"
this is other islands

found using google images with the search string "other islands"
you think Plato would have said "Island chain" if thats what he meant
perhaps you are saying he was stupid ?

I'm still wondering why your insistence that Plato was saying Island chain.
that indicates that it was crossing a large body of water to a continent which would indicate that you have somewhere in mind and then you are saying he made it up
so surely this is irrelevant for you and not worth arguing about
where you been anyway buddy
I was getting withdrawal


p.s. I'm wondering if you know what central Eurasia looked like at the start of the Holocene ?

Marduk,

I bow to your literal and semantic argument then! Hadn't realized that you'd object to the phrase "island chain" vs. "other islands."

Also, I believe it is Critias (the younger) that thinks these islands lead somewhere, i.e. that there must be somewhere to follow them to. It is he that tells us you could reach a continent by following them.

Harte

I'll admit this part of Platos dialogue is very confusing
thats why its been used as evidence for just about every location on earth as the right place
lets do an experiment
I will draw what I think Plato is describing
and you draw what Plato is describing
we both need to label the following on the picture
1. Island opposite pillars of hercules including the straight in between (larger than libya and asia)
2. other islands
3. opposite continent
4. sea within the straight (the lake)
5. outer ocean (true ocean)
6. Island of atlantis

and then we can post and compare
if anything else it would be fun
better than arguing about semantics anyway

lets say we got until sunday to do this if you like
anyone else who also wants to try is more than welcome
we can then tear each others maps to pieces by pointing out the obvious parts that do not agree with exactly what Plato details
or we could get a mod to judge them
any volunteers please make yourselves known

This sort of works:



There are plenty of islands to rule near to "Atlantis" too (eg in the Caribbean, the Hawiaan group, or maybe Japan would do too).

The "real sea" is the Pacific and Atlantic together.

All that ice up north sort of lessens the credulity that perople would have known that the ocean really extends all the way north of modern Canada...

But then again, I sort of think that if the island is still exisiting then Greenland looks more plausible. If it wasn't impossibly cold for civilisation such as is described.

Personally, I don't care if it is myth or based on half-remembered truths. As we don't seem to ever be able to find out it looks like it will never serve much practical use either way. So I just sort of ignore it.

Best wishes.


[edit on 21-3-2007 by d60944]

[edit on 21-3-2007 by d60944]

I'm sorry
your map fails to qualify for failing to take into account this part of the dialogue of Critias

was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and
when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean

clearly America is only an impassible barrier of mud politically and not geographically


and clearly I said draw a map from Platos description

I will draw what I think Plato is describing
and you draw what Plato is describing

not draw circles over a map of the world
you have fallen into the first trap of finding Atlantis
completely disregarded the details of the brief
normally these are Platos details
this time they were mine
ce la vie

Well, yes, clearly I am of a school of thought that large islands simply don't suddenly sink below the waves in toto, turning into mud barriers....

What can happen is civilisations be knocked back and detsroyed by things like tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanoes and the like. If anything happened, that could happen to this proposed island.

And if you really want to nitpick (as I know you do), you didn't propose that I do anything at all according to Plato's description. You proposed that to Harte and offered an open invite to others. I didn't say if I was taking up your proposal absolutely. But that is a really pointless area to discuss.....

[edit on 21-3-2007 by d60944]

And if you really want to nitpick (as I know you do), you didn't propose that I do anything at all according to Plato's description. You proposed that to Harte and offered an open invite to others. I didn't say if I was taking up your proposal absolutely. But that is a really pointless area to discuss.....

see this is what happens shortly after some new crackpot theory about Atlantis is released
someone questions the Author on his adherence to Plato and he accuses them of nit picking
you should immediately go write a book d60944
it surely can't be any worse than this one

The most comprehensive reconstruction of the history and fate of the legendary ancient civilization of Atlantis.
* Draws together compelling evidence from geology, astronomy, myths,
and ancient texts to prove the existence of Atlantean civilization and its catastrophic end.
* Includes a vivid narrative that re-creates the last days of Atlantis.
* Represents 20 years worth of research across the globe.

All human cultures, from classical and biblical to native North and South American, share the myth of an ancient deluge, often coinciding with a rain of fire from the heavens. What accounts for this shared myth of environmental catastrophe? Now, in The Destruction of Atlantis, author Frank Joseph links this worldwide cultural phenomenon to the story of the lost civilization of Atlantis, which in a single day and night disappeared into the sea in a violent cataclysm.
In the most comprehensive account of this legendary island, Joseph provides compelling evidence that Atlantis was at the root of all subsequent human civilizations. Brilliantly refuting years of modern skepticism, Joseph combines evidence from archaeology, geology, astronomy, and ancient lore to locate Atlantis in the context of Near Eastern Bronze Age society at the end of the 13th century B.C. The author seamlessly combines hard scientific evidence with a stunning imaginative re-creation of what it must have been like to walk the streets of Atlantis in its last days. The resulting portrait of a mighty empire corrupted by an overreaching lust for wealth and power offers an important lesson to our own materialistic civilization poised on the brink of ecological disaster.

did I read that right
end of the 13th century BCE
ah well its rubbish then
hes missed a very clear point of Plato who said it happened 9000 years before his time
what an idiot eh
next thing you know someone will be claiming this is

"an extensively researched volume that takes on the reality of Atlantis in a conservative and well-reasoned approach. which deserves to be part of every Atlantis library"

oh wait
David Hatcher Childress already said that in a review
and hes about the most credible pseudo historian working the field today
credible pseudo historian = science fiction author

Well, I said I had no real interest in the topic as such. Don't really think there's any significance in the whole story. Whether or not it is based in fact seems the complete storm in a teacup. I don't plan to read the nonsensical mysticism of most authors. And Plato is most unhelpful - you have to impart creative interpretation to him in this matter, no matter how objective you would like to be. As someone well versed in studying Greek, Latin and medieval technical/scientific works, I know for well the impossibility to ever try and state definitively that we know for sure what any one term, idea, or description really means. And, indeed, to what extent we are able to take things as literally stated and what things as allusively stated. [Goodness me, will someone tell me what the Greek "magadising" actually and precisely is...?]

Anyhooooo, as far as I can see, that map I gave works for Plato's description. I can draw some blobs on paper using Plato's descriptions that look the same as the modern continents if you want, but what's the point? I stated how my map doesn't quite work (ice being in the way - and also, now I think of it, that the "true sea" is not bounded properly by continents: there is a nice big gap south of Australia). I see it more of a game of cretaivity though. Even if one could show that my map was completely correct, I don't consider that it would prove anything other than that my own creative impulse works in any particular way (cos there are many other maps one could draw that look different, but work equally well, to varying degrees of divergence from modern geography and/or the way the world actualy works!).

Best wishes.

[edit on 21-3-2007 by d60944]

Our home civilization on Mars ??

That would open a whole new doorway into this discussion.

What if we are really talking about the destruction of our parent civilization of Mars. Then the story was told person to person down the line. Eventually it got to a master story teller and he adjusted the story to fit his world??

What do you think????

Crazy I know.

Originally posted by Royal76
Our home civilization on Mars ??
...

Crazy I know.

Yep.

If humans originated on Mars, we would expect them to be evolved to match a Martian environment. Even ignoring the fact that there are no traces of civilisation on Mars, and that we think it is currently impossible to sustain multicellular life on its surface.....

Humans would be finding the large gravity of earth too difficult. Our bones would be too heavy, etc. Humans lungs would be much too big, our repiratory system would have been evolved to fit a less-dense atmosphere on Mars (even if there ever was an real oxygen atmosphere there, the lower gravity would have made itless dense). I won't bother to go on, as it will just invite the human-genetic-modification-by-channelled-beings-from-the-Pleides-or-Sirius-or-some-other-mystic-sounding-name.

Cheers.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by d60944]

Originally posted by Royal76
Our home civilization on Mars ??

That would open a whole new doorway into this discussion.

What if we are really talking about the destruction of our parent civilization of Mars. Then the story was told person to person down the line. Eventually it got to a master story teller and he adjusted the story to fit his world??

What do you think????

Crazy I know.

WIKI source: History of Athens

Athens began its history as a Neolithic hill-fort on top of the Acropolis ("high city"), some time in the third millennium BC

....

I don't know, Atlandis used to be long before... and the conflict between these two ''alliances''.

Damn, i need to refresh my knowledge about Plato

Royal76,
to stay frank,
i don't expect your theoretical part about Atlandis to go far
there are things missin' from stating its a tale of an other cosmos
1)Pillars of Hercules
2)Troy
3)Egypt
4)Athens
are geographic places connected to our planet

Still, i don't reject your theory (I reject nones' theories) as you have noticed.

mmm, Wait for a half century when archeology would take the first leap towards other planets. Who knows?


[edit on 30-3-2007 by Dragonlike]

Maybe its like the show Stargate Atlantis..sortoff anyway..

A story like that could get passed down by word of mouth and change before it was written down.

You know the game were you say a sentence to a friend and by the time it reaches the end its a whole new story.

That's all I'm saying. What about the possibility that Atlantis was Mars, or even the possibility that Atlantis was the first colony of Mars on Earth. Got destroyed. I'm just trying new avenues of possibilities.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Stewart Lewis
i went back over the older threads. one theory my eye did not catch was Antartica.

that's what I think too... especially when you know that Nazis were very interested...

Britain's Secret War in Antarctica

At the end of World War II, Britain sent a covert mission to investigate anomalous activities near its secret base at Maudheim in eastern Antarctica and to seek out and destroy a subterranean Nazi haven.

Originally posted by Royal76
That's all I'm saying. What about the possibility that Atlantis was Mars, or even the possibility that Atlantis was the first colony of Mars on Earth. Got destroyed. I'm just trying new avenues of possibilities.

What do you think?

You are speaking about colonies? Very possible.
But planetary colonies? This demands a second thought.

To begin and settle a colony in an other, or neighbour(!), planet you need to have advanced technology. Look around. Look what mankind have created and tell me that even if we as humans ever decide to go to (let's say Mars(!) and build a base it would be something to last don't you think. To last for millenia if not centuries. We are speaking about advanced tech and know-how.


On the other hand, i am in a degree positive about structures on Mars. Most of them destroyed seams to have been abandoned. Let's take the possibility that their planet destroyed and the fleeing population would turn to the nearest life-sustainable planet, earth. Of course they wouldn't have taken much from their home-planet don't you thing? Even the knowledge wouldn't be as much as left behind.


Of course, evidence are a powerful tool and without it only speculation exist. Imagination is very fast, faster than light and travels into places before the light enlight and read first the dark places light didn't reach. Until light comes and fulfil it with true light. Evidence. Truth.

We could actually be the only surviving members of a species that lived on Mars and tried to colonize Earth. They could have died off thru war or some great cataclyism.


My Possibilities:

1. The Colony was Atlantis, later destroyed by earthquake, meteor, etc.

2. Mars was Atlantis and destroyed, and the story changed over time to fit the ever changing word of mouth until later pinned down.

3. Regular story were it was just another City state like Troy that was destroyed.

4. Atlantis is only found thru a stargate that is either destroyed, or lost like the show.

I'm just saying we should look at all the possibilities.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by Royal76]

I'm just saying we should look at all the possibilities.

let me know when you've finished your investigation
I'll be in the northeast corner of the cemetary
the grave with the big white stone with "still waiting" carved on it

Originally posted by Royal
I'm just saying we should look at all the possibilities.

You find me your supporter here

Originally posted by Royal76
1. The Colony was Atlantis, later destroyed by earthquake, meteor, etc.

There is a better alternative theory approaching scientific status dealing with the ''Fall of Mars'' . Do you remember the pipelines? If you look carefully its like an electromagnetic coil. Apparently, Mars lost its magnetic field and without magnetic field what we do not have? Atmosphere. Somehow the Mars-people made a terrible mistake that lead them to lose their magnetic field. Without it, the sun-winds would wipe any possible atmosphere. Before its too late they built these coils around Mars to empower their planet with magnetic energy and restore its magnetic field. That's why they these pipeline surround the entire planet (!) Unfortunately, they didn't make it.

Originally posted by Royal 76
Mars was Atlantis and destroyed, and the story changed over time to fit the ever changing word of mouth until later pinned down.

Very possible, even religion has been changed from its original Babylonian pattern towards our today Christiendom. The same could have happen with this story.


This is the image of an electromagnetic coil:

isn't it the same with those pipelines?

just my part here

Very possible, even religion has been changed from its original Babylonian pattern towards our today Christiendom

yeah
the Babylonians worshipped a deity who was known as the fisherman
and they feared a God who sent a great deluge
and the enemy of one of their gods was a great red dragon
you're right
things are so different now

Mars could some day be us.

We are always looking for a better way, a more powerful way to destroy our opponents. How soon before some idiot says I wonder what happens when I do this. The next thing you know North is South, The magma stops spinning, etc. Maybe we were a colony, when it happened on Mars.

Who's to say that what we call Mars, was not once called Atlantis..or something close to it.

Originally posted by Royal76
Who's to say that what we call Mars, was not once called Atlantis..or something close to it.

Alright. If nobody else will, then I will:

"What we call Mars was not once called Atlantis, or something close to it."

There, I said it prove me wrong.

Stargate is a movie and a TV show not evidence. There is no evidence we ever came from Mars, or were engineered by aliens. We seem to be 100% terrestial whether we like it or not. We evolved from the earthly animals against the fundamentalists best wishes

Actually Dragonlike makes a good point but totally backwards here:

Originally posted by Dragonlike

To begin and settle a colony in an other, or neighbour(!), planet you need to have advanced technology. Look around. Look what mankind have created and tell me that even if we as humans ever decide to go to (let's say Mars(!) and build a base it would be something to last don't you think. To last for millenia if not centuries. We are speaking about advanced tech and know-how.

Even though it weakens my argument I think if we did make any "base" on another planet it would be weak and not survive on it's own for decades (much less centuries). BUT it would be easily repairable. Just look at Mir and the International Space Station, floating buckets ready to crumble (and do that in Mirs case) the moment humans move out!