Where do you think Atlantis is or was?

Originally posted by Mardukif you'd read the stories written by Plato you might have noticed a total absence of Ice in his very detailed description of the place
he also makes no mention of anyone walking round in a fur coat moaning about the cold

I should have been clearer...such is communication.

I dont necessarily believe in Atlantis...I should have said that.
I do believe in advanced civilization, and based upon where I am at, I posted my perspetive of things.

Now having said that...what we know isnt that much...Antartica wasnt always covered by ice...and it seems that it 'sunk' under water. (ice = water)

Like anything (the Bible, etc) it helps to try to not take things literal to see if you can get a bigger picture.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 6-3-2007 by dAlen]

double post

[edit on 6-3-2007 by dAlen]

Background reading for the interested:

Free ebook: Introduction to the Philosophy and Writings of Plato by Thomas Taylor

Timaeus By Plato Written 360 B.C.E Translated by Benjamin Jowett

Critias By Plato Written 360 B.C.E Translated by Benjamin Jowett

Originally posted by Marduk
if you'd read the stories written by Plato you might have noticed a total absence of Ice in his very detailed description of the place
he also makes no mention of anyone walking round in a fur coat moaning about the cold

Pic from Wikipedia Atlantis entry

Nope, nary a polar bear.

you often see that city of atlantis depicted in that fashion
but can anyone tell me
just where the idea that it was built like that came from ?

How long ago Rren was banned. Seems like he posted after the ban to me. left ATS 8 min ago. Just curious if anybody knows.

The picture was pretty cool, but has more land than the one I've been looking at.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Royal76]

Originally posted by Marduk
you often see that city of atlantis depicted in that fashion
but can anyone tell me
just where the idea that it was built like that came from ?

I don't know where that image originated, but:

From Critias:

the island, which I will describe. Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side.


[...]


inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet

[...]


He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil.

[...]


First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.

[...]


And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water...

Etc, etc. Concentric rings, abundant farmland, harbor etc, etc. Is that pic I linked from wiki not close? What's a better more accurate depiction of Plato's Atlantis in your opinion?

Originally posted by Royal76
How long ago Rren was banned. Seems like he posted after the ban to me. left ATS 8 min ago. Just curious if anybody knows.

The picture was pretty cool, but has more land than the one I've been looking at.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Royal76]

Banned!

Na... that's "Banner Member" which was my attempt, albeit lame, at being clever. You can purchase two lines there (from member center) using your ATS points.

yesterday i ran across a item of interest, which might tell us where Atlantis Was...
news.yahoo.com...
[[ just don't know why the link isn't active today... ]]


titled; "Missing: A Huge Chunk of the Earth's Crust"

it seems there's a significant hole, or missing crust/seafloor
at the mid-Atlantic Ridge areas (about where ancient Atlantis was)

the newly built ship RSS James Cook, will explore & core drill
some 3-4,000 meters below the sea-level to explore this odd region


I suggest that ~15,000 years ago, there was a NewZealand sized
landmass above this spot in the mid-Atlantic ridge.
formed like Hawaii is in the present day Pacific, as a 'mountain'
volcano above a Mantle Hot Spot.

but as the landmass grew, the thin crust sea-floor which supported this
Atlantis land, became greatly stressed,
the weight of Atlantis finally became too much for the egg-shell thin & brittle crust to support & the super volcano assisted in the collapse
of the sea-floor crust...and the whole shebang just dropped into the hot, liquid/plastic molton rock that makes up the earth's mantle,

...like a house or car or even a building sinking into one of those
'sink-holes' we hear of in Florida every so often...
that's about the way Atlantis broke up, with earthquakes, lava floes, and sinking beneath the oceans waves and falling into the broken crust hole
in the ocean's sea-floor & into the hot lava like mantle.

all that survives is the tale & myth of Atlantis,
and this strange & peculiar thin skin of earthen sea-floor crustal plate
at the mid-atlantic ridge...which some experts describe as an 'open wound'

perhaps the break up & sinking of this Atlantis land contributed to the warming that suddenly caused the great ice sheet melt?



related reads :

www.soton.ac.uk...

posted by Rren
Etc, etc. Concentric rings, abundant farmland, harbor etc, etc. Is that pic I linked from wiki not close? What's a better more accurate depiction of Plato's Atlantis in your opinion?

oh i know that
but also from Critias

First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

seems a bit contradictory doesnt it
when you really get into this subject you soon see that Jowett assumes a lot and doesnt translate very well at all
like for instance where he says

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,

this line in the original greek reads

this power came forth from the Atlantis sea

the next line is a big clue as to how badly Jowett got it wrong

for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;

so if it really is the Atlantic he is suggesting that it wasn't navigatable in Platos time
did someone build a wall across it ?

Jowett simply translated the text in line with the belief at that time that the only sea local enough to greece and large enough to hide a continent was the Atlantic
since we know have mapped the entire floor of the ocean and know about plate tectonics ots fairly obvious that wherever it was it wasn't in the Atlantic
the place was actually named after the Atlas mountains which were named as Herodotus as the place where Atlas stood
both Apollodorus and Strabo pointed out that Herodotus often made it up as he went along
if this is the case then both Herodotus and Jowett are equally responsible for the belief that that particular line indicates something when in fact it doesnt
Plato clearly had no idea of the exact location of the lost continent or he could easily have said so
like "1000 miles west of greece"
how easy would that have been
so Jowetts translation is heavily flawed and the general rule is "hmm i don't like that piece of evidence because it doesnt match my theory so I will totally disregard it as it doesnt match my personal belief"

this is why you get pictures of pretty circular islands when in fact Plato didn't say that
the line in greek that Jowett has translated as "encircling" is just as well translated as "surrounding" and i don't see where anywhere in either text Plato says "concentric" or even uses the term "ring" at all ?
do you ?

posted by St Udio
that's about the way Atlantis broke up, with earthquakes, lava floes, and sinking beneath the oceans waves and falling into the broken crust hole

posted by plato

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea

doesnt mention Lava. was that just your imagination ?

posted by St Udio
perhaps the break up & sinking of this Atlantis land contributed to the warming that suddenly caused the great ice sheet melt?

which great ice sheet was that
Plato doesnt mention Ice anywhere in the text
do you mean the end of the ice age that took place over a 4000 year period
thats sudden in your reckoning ?
I'd hate to see you take your time over something


[edit on 6-3-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by St Udio
yesterday i ran across a item of interest, which might tell us where Atlantis Was...
news.yahoo.com...
[[ just don't know why the link isn't active today... ]]


titled; "Missing: A Huge Chunk of the Earth's Crust"

it seems there's a significant hole, or missing crust/seafloor
at the mid-Atlantic Ridge areas (about where ancient Atlantis was)

"Failed to form" is what they're saying. Not "vanished into the Borg Mothership"/"sank beneath the waves."

Areas that sink leave traces, you see. We can still see some of the ancient land bridges (and features on them) from the last ice age (20,000 years ago to 10,000 years ago.) Even islands that have been shattered by a volcano exploding on them can be seen.

None of those processes creates an area where the Earth's crust fails to form.

Marduk said:

when you really get into this subject you soon see that Jowett assumes a lot and doesnt translate very well at all

I have no way of knowing how well Jowett translates. Infact my knowledge is so meek I didn't even know the translations were controvercial? Is there a translation you prefer, that is available online? I'd be interested in comparing the two (or more?) versions.

Marduk

since we know have mapped the entire floor of the ocean and know about plate tectonics ots fairly obvious that wherever it was it wasn't in the Atlantic

Well sir, I don't believe you're up-to-date on the most recent discoveries. Ello Guvna!

this is why you get pictures of pretty circular islands when in fact Plato didn't say that
the line in greek that Jowett has translated as "encircling" is just as well translated as "surrounding" and i don't see where anywhere in either text Plato says "concentric" or even uses the term "ring" at all ?
do you ?

No, I'd have to say I don't. 'So it's an interpretation of a translation and not a very good one at that', close? Who's got the goods, if not Jowett.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Rren]

Well sir, I don't believe you're up-to-date on the most recent discoveries

hmmm I think you should read all that thread before you try to use it to make a point
just a suggestion,
heres what I posted after it was revealed to be a spoof
perpetrated by me

this is my attempt at denying ignorance, by showing that Ignorance which is defined as "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed" is unnecessary
no one needs to be ignorant
you can always educate yourself to the facts
make yourself aware of those facts
and therefore consider yourself informed

Infact my knowledge is so meek I didn't even know the translations were controvercial

its over 150 years old

Is there a translation you prefer, that is available online?

theres plenty available online in the original ancient greek
of course I don't expect that helps you much in this case
I have a friend who can read ancient greek and I get most of my waffle in this area from him
I ask
he translates
i then waffle about it in an attempt to look clever
is it working ?
this site does have both the original ancient greek text and a handy translation tool
www.perseus.tufts.edu...:text:1999.01.0179:text=Tim.:section=17a
but without a basic knowledge of modern greek it wont do you any good either because thats what it translates it into

Originally posted by Marduk


hmmm I think you should read all that thread before you try to use it to make a point
just a suggestion,
heres what I posted after it was revealed to be a spoof
perpetrated by me

Yeah bud, I got it. matter 'o fact I posted as such in that thread. Eventually

i then waffle about it in an attempt to look clever
is it working ?

Hit and miss.

this site does have both the original ancient greek text and a handy translation tool
www.perseus.tufts.edu...:text:1999.01.0179:text=Tim.:section=17a
but without a basic knowledge of modern greek it wont do you any good either because thats what it translates it into

So there's no place online for the, english only, layman to go? Good book?

So there's no place online for the, english only, layman to go? Good book?

no good books on Atlantis you should know that
the orthodox community to a man dont believe it ever existed so don't care and the alternative community are all nutters
some things you actually have to do for yourself
that way you know your results aren't heavily agendised

I've seen alot of "Banned Member" lately. Its usually put right were you one lined it. You might want to add a little more to it.

I've always wonder if maybe Atlantis died the same way the dinosaurs did.

You know the asteroid that made the gulf of mexico theory.

Maybe that missing land blew up that way and is now a part of Colorado and Siberia, etc.

That would make the stones found near Florida "Bimini Road" make more sense.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Royal76]

Originally posted by Marduk
...when you really get into this subject you soon see that Jowett assumes a lot and doesnt translate very well at all
like for instance where he says

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,

this line in the original greek reads

this power came forth from the Atlantis sea

the next line is a big clue as to how badly Jowett got it wrong

for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;

so if it really is the Atlantic he is suggesting that it wasn't navigatable in Platos time
did someone build a wall across it ?

Jowett simply translated the text in line with the belief at that time that the only sea local enough to greece and large enough to hide a continent was the Atlantic since we know have mapped the entire floor of the ocean and know about plate tectonics ots fairly obvious that wherever it was it wasn't in the Atlantic.

I disagree here. First of all, you've mixed quotes from Timaeus with quotes from Critias, but that's no big deal. My main disagreement is that Jowett didn't merely base this translation on some belief about the Atlantic being the only sea big enough. If you continue the quote you started above, which is from Timaeus:

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

(My emphasis.)
It seems that Plato is talking about the Mediterreanean vs. the Atlantic here, though I know that interpretations differ. Anyway, IMO, this is why Jowett uses the "Atlantic" term for the "Atlantis" Sea. As far as I'm concerned, I'm unwilling to posit that Plato meant anything else, based on the above description.

And the Atlantic was "navigable in those days" due to the existence of the chain of islands that made up Atlantis, which one could follow to the "whole of the opposite continent." Couldn't do that after the place sank because there was no way to navigate across that much open sea in those days. That's the way I read it anyway.

Originally posted by Marduk...the place was actually named after the Atlas mountains which were named as Herodotus as the place where Atlas stood both Apollodorus and Strabo pointed out that Herodotus often made it up as he went along

I don't trust Herodotus either, but Greek tradition predating Herodotus holds that Atlas' perch was located in the west, which usually meant Libya. Herodotus claimed to have visited the Atlas mountains (home of his "Atlantes") in Libya though like I said, I don't really believe him. On the other hand, if you want Atlantis to be named for the Titan Atlas, there's no other "western" sea that would be appropriate for it's location.

BTW, Plato doesn't indicate in either Dialogue that this was the origin of the name of the island. Unless I missed it somehow that is. But he does intimate that the first born son of the God Poseidon and the mortal woman Cleito, the first king of Atlantis and who was also coincidentally named Atlas, was where the name Atlantis (and Atlantic or the Atlantis Sea) originated:

He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.

(My emphasis again.) Source: The Critias

Originally posted by Marduk...if this is the case then both Herodotus and Jowett are equally responsible for the belief that that particular line indicates something when in fact it doesnt Plato clearly had no idea of the exact location of the lost continent or he could easily have said so like "1000 miles west of greece" how easy would that have been
so Jowetts translation is heavily flawed and the general rule is "hmm i don't like that piece of evidence because it doesnt match my theory so I will totally disregard it as it doesnt match my personal belief"

To me, the only evidence about Atlantis is the lack thereof. Hence, since I still hate Hancock, I must say that absence of evidence is not only evidence of absence, but it is also the only possible evidence of absence. What, in other words, would constitute evidence that Atlantis never existed? Other than, as stated, a total lack of evidence that it ever existed. No, you're right. Plato had no idea where Atlantis was located. But that to me indicates that it was located nowhere but in Plato's mind.

Harte

Herodotus is the source who claimed that the pillars of Heracles were the straights of Gibraltar from which this later belief stems
I could name you a few more better greek historians who disagreed with him
even Wiki mentions one of them
Strabo

Near Gades/Gadeira (modern Cádiz, just beyond the strait) was the westernmost temple of Tyrian Heracles (Melqart), near the eastern shore of the island (Strabo 3.5.2–3). Strabo notes (3.5.5–6) that the two bronze pillars within the temple, each 8 cubits high, were widely proclaimed to be the true Pillars of Heracles by many who had visited the place and had sacrificed to Heracles there. But Strabo believes the account to be fraudulent, in part noting that the inscriptions on those pillars mentioned nothing about Heracles, speaking only of the expenses incurred by the Phoenicians in their making. The columns of the Melqart temple at Tyre were also of religious significance.

en.wikipedia.org...
without Herodotus claiming that they were the whole Atlantic is where Atlantis was myth falls apart
and Strabo you know
much better than Herodotus
actually did the research
not just made it up from travellers tales in a nearby tavern
en.wikipedia.org...

Couldn't do that after the place sank because there was no way to navigate across that much open sea in those days. That's the way I read it anyway.

so your claiming that Plato knew about America as evidence for the Atlantic belief
you want to discuss that Harte old friend ?

I don't trust Herodotus either, but Greek tradition predating Herodotus holds that Atlas' perch was located in the west

actually the direction was given as either towards or away from Venus
which shortly before Herodootus time changed direction
towards the evening star meant west
towards the morning star meant east
after pythagoras realised that the morning star and the evening star were both one of the same these directions became confused and were often just given as west

quite frankly Harte you either have to take Platos accounts one of two ways
either Plato was transcribing 100% details as they had come down to him
or he was heavy fictionalising an event that had taken place
the event was a flood around 9500bce

if the former then you have to wonder how this knowledge was transmitted across the 6000 or so years before it was possible to write it down. I find this extremely unlikely
and if the latter then you dont have to worry about the details
considering that its not the only story of a civilisation washed away and especially not the only story on this theme from the 500bce period you have to wonder if Plato wasn't just adapting another very famous story that was popular in Greece at that time from a Jewish story

in both cases you have a civilisation washed away by a god for whom a trident was a symbol which would explain why Plato has Posedion marked down as the flood destroyer rather than Zeus who in greek tradition was better known for it
its just that Platos version isn't heavily agendised with a monotheistic religious moral
Plato wasn't a Hebrew after all
but he was a story teller


so once again
you're looking for the great deluge
and that assuredly wasn't in the Atlantic

and directions for it weren't given from Gibraltar
no matter what a group of phony sham pirates might have said later
and you know where those phoenicians originated don't you







[edit on 10-3-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by Marduk
Herodotus is the source who claimed that the pillars of Heracles were the straights of Gibraltar from which this later belief stems
I could name you a few more better greek historians who disagreed with him
even Wiki mentions one of them
Strabo

Near Gades/Gadeira (modern Cádiz, just beyond the strait) was the westernmost temple of Tyrian Heracles (Melqart), near the eastern shore of the island (Strabo 3.5.2–3). Strabo notes (3.5.5–6) that the two bronze pillars within the temple, each 8 cubits high, were widely proclaimed to be the true Pillars of Heracles by many who had visited the place and had sacrificed to Heracles there. But Strabo believes the account to be fraudulent, in part noting that the inscriptions on those pillars mentioned nothing about Heracles, speaking only of the expenses incurred by the Phoenicians in their making. The columns of the Melqart temple at Tyre were also of religious significance.

en.wikipedia.org...

From this quote we are supposed to understand that Strabo didn't think the Straights of Heracles meant Gibraltar?

Like I said, I know interpretations vary. I gave you mine, which I have not formulated in a way to make it fit with any theory of mine about what Atlantis was. IOW, I have no agenda here. I'm not invested in some idea I have to manipulate Plato to support. Just how I see it, is all.

Originally posted by Marduk

Couldn't do that after the place sank because there was no way to navigate across that much open sea in those days. That's the way I read it anyway.

so your claiming that Plato knew about America as evidence for the Atlantic belief
you want to discuss that Harte old friend ?

Now, Marduk. You certainly know me better than that! Plato was claiming that the Atlantis Sea was navigable because of the island chain. Most "navigation" of those days was done by following the land, as you know very well. Since Plato (Plato, not me,) was claiming there was an island chain, that would by definition make the Atlantis Sea "navigable."

Originally posted by Marduk

I don't trust Herodotus either, but Greek tradition predating Herodotus holds that Atlas' perch was located in the west

actually the direction was given as either towards or away from Venus
which shortly before Herodootus time changed direction
towards the evening star meant west
towards the morning star meant east
after pythagoras realised that the morning star and the evening star were both one of the same these directions became confused and were often just given as west

Exactly the sort of manipulating of the story I was talking about. There's very little doubt that the tradition, which is much older that either Herodotus or Pythagorus, holds that Atlas' perch was in the west:

The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Some derive it from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others suggest that it is a pre-Indo-European name. Since the Atlas mountains fell in the region inhabited by Berbers, it could be that the name as we know it is taken from Berber.

Source
Berbers live in NW Africa (Libya to the ancient Greeks.)

At first, the story of Atlas referred to one mountain only, [p. 407] which was believed to exist on the extreme boundary of the earth; but, as geographical knowledge extended, the name of Atlas was transferred to other places, and thus we read of a Mauritanian, Italian, Arcadian, and even of a Caucasian, Atlas. (Apollod. iii. 10. § 1 ; Dionys. i. 61; Serv. ad Aen. viii. 134.) The common opinion, however, was, that the heaven-bearing Atlas was in the north-western part of Africa, and the range of mountains in that part of the world bears the name of Atlas down to this day.

Source

THE HESPERIDES were the goddess nymphs of evening and of the golden light of sunset

Source
Sun usually sets in the west. West, to the Greeks, means Libya.

Originally posted by Marduk
quite frankly Harte you either have to take Platos accounts one of two ways
either Plato was transcribing 100% details as they had come down to him
or he was heavy fictionalising an event that had taken place
the event was a flood around 9500bce

Hardly. Why would I be limited to only these two ways? Ways which, coincidentally (I hope,) both involve Atlantis having existed?

Atlantis has been called an allegory around here. Actually, Atlantis is not an allegory in and of itself, it's a fictional place in an allegorical critique of Athens written by Plato about Athens, and not about Atlantis. That's the way I "take Plato's accounts..."

Additionally, again, unless I missed it, Plato never claims Poseidon destroyed Atlantis, so your trident analogy really doesn't apply.

Plato starts to tell us how Atlantis was destroyed at the end of the Critias. The very last words of the Dialogue are:

... when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows...

Source

Mentions Zeus as if it were He that decided to destroy them. No mention at all of Poseidon being involved in the destruction, though I realize it was his territory and he would be the one expected to sink an island.

Harte

From this quote we are supposed to understand that Strabo didn't think the Straights of Heracles meant Gibraltar?

yes quite clearly as the identification of Heracles with Gibraltar comes from the phoenecians who according to Strabo defrauded peoples belief by saying it was there
you been reading US english too long old chap

Now, Marduk. You certainly know me better than that! Plato was claiming that the Atlantis Sea was navigable because of the island chain. Most "navigation" of those days was done by following the land, as you know very well. Since Plato (Plato, not me,) was claiming there was an island chain, that would by definition make the Atlantis Sea "navigable."

and you're not trying to make it fit by claiming there was an island chain ?
maybe at this point (or earlier) you should look at atlantic sea floor topography

Exactly the sort of manipulating of the story I was talking about. There's very little doubt that the tradition, which is much older that either Herodotus or Pythagorus, holds that Atlas' perch was in the west:

well no there isn't
if it was you'd be able to mention it by anyone before Herodotus
as you can't.......

The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Some derive it from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others suggest that it is a pre-Indo-European name

complete fiction
the derivation of the word Atlas comes from the greek word for "endure" Tlao
any greek scholar could tell you that

ATLAS
Gender: Masculine

Usage: Greek Mythology

Other Scripts: Ατλας (Ancient Greek)

Pronounced: AT-las [key]

Means "not enduring" from the Greek negative prefix α combined with τλαω (tlao) "to endure". In Greek mythology he was a Titan punished by Zeus by being forced to support the heavens on his shoulders.

www.behindthename.com...
if you're going to use wiki as a source you should at least check that its information is correct

in greek mythology the Caucasus was one of the pillars holding up the world
maybe you should check into that
maybe by seeing who was holding up the pillars eh
and at any rate
you're claiming that greece was in a bronze age in 9500bce
it wasn't
youre claiming that the greeks were in greece in 9500bce
they werent
youre claiming just about anything really from a position of not knowing all the facts
so i'm not surprised you got a few details wrong
like for instance
your claim about Berbers
its a greek word
it means Barbarians
it wasn't just used to describe people in nw africa you know

none of them ever took on Athens either
none of them ever worshipped at a temple of poseidon on an island nation
you think Plato might have mentioned they were black as well
they didn't have political correctness back then you know
he would have called them black barbarians or something similar
Herodotus was being nice and he called them barbarians
mind you he was probably talking to some berber traders when he made the whole thing up anyway




[edit on 11-3-2007 by Marduk]

Marduk

Actually, I'm not claiming that at all. If you read my post, you'll see the word "fictional" used as an adjective to describe the noun "Atlantis." See it?

I'm just, as I said (now for the third time,) giving my "take" on what Plato says.

If I were to make any claim in this regard, it would be that there never was any Atlantis, by any name, in any location. My "take" is that Plato made it up, and not (of course) that there were Greeks in 9500 BC or whatever era you wish to peg your Atlantean civilization to.

Also, again (this for the second time,) it is Plato that describes the island chain, not me.

Have you ever actually read the Critias?

Harte