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Originally posted by Mardukif you'd read the stories written by Plato you might have noticed a total absence of Ice in his very detailed description of the place
he also makes no mention of anyone walking round in a fur coat moaning about the cold
Originally posted by Marduk
if you'd read the stories written by Plato you might have noticed a total absence of Ice in his very detailed description of the place
he also makes no mention of anyone walking round in a fur coat moaning about the cold
Originally posted by Marduk
you often see that city of atlantis depicted in that fashion
but can anyone tell me
just where the idea that it was built like that came from ?
the island, which I will describe. Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side.
[...]
inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet
[...]
He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil.
[...]
First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.
[...]
And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water...
Originally posted by Royal76
How long ago Rren was banned. Seems like he posted after the ban to me. left ATS 8 min ago. Just curious if anybody knows.
The picture was pretty cool, but has more land than the one I've been looking at.
[edit on 6-3-2007 by Royal76]
posted by Rren
Etc, etc. Concentric rings, abundant farmland, harbor etc, etc. Is that pic I linked from wiki not close? What's a better more accurate depiction of Plato's Atlantis in your opinion?
First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace. And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty. And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water. Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia. All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight. The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.
This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,
this power came forth from the Atlantis sea
for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;
posted by St Udio
that's about the way Atlantis broke up, with earthquakes, lava floes, and sinking beneath the oceans waves and falling into the broken crust hole
posted by plato
But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea
posted by St Udio
perhaps the break up & sinking of this Atlantis land contributed to the warming that suddenly caused the great ice sheet melt?
Originally posted by St Udio
yesterday i ran across a item of interest, which might tell us where Atlantis Was...
news.yahoo.com...
[[ just don't know why the link isn't active today... ]]
titled; "Missing: A Huge Chunk of the Earth's Crust"
it seems there's a significant hole, or missing crust/seafloor
at the mid-Atlantic Ridge areas (about where ancient Atlantis was)
Marduk said:
when you really get into this subject you soon see that Jowett assumes a lot and doesnt translate very well at all
Marduk
since we know have mapped the entire floor of the ocean and know about plate tectonics ots fairly obvious that wherever it was it wasn't in the Atlantic
this is why you get pictures of pretty circular islands when in fact Plato didn't say that
the line in greek that Jowett has translated as "encircling" is just as well translated as "surrounding" and i don't see where anywhere in either text Plato says "concentric" or even uses the term "ring" at all ?
do you ?
Well sir, I don't believe you're up-to-date on the most recent discoveries
this is my attempt at denying ignorance, by showing that Ignorance which is defined as "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed" is unnecessary
no one needs to be ignorant
you can always educate yourself to the facts
make yourself aware of those facts
and therefore consider yourself informed
Infact my knowledge is so meek I didn't even know the translations were controvercial
Is there a translation you prefer, that is available online?
Originally posted by Marduk
hmmm I think you should read all that thread before you try to use it to make a point
just a suggestion,
heres what I posted after it was revealed to be a spoof
perpetrated by me
i then waffle about it in an attempt to look clever
is it working ?
this site does have both the original ancient greek text and a handy translation tool
www.perseus.tufts.edu...:text:1999.01.0179:text=Tim.:section=17a
but without a basic knowledge of modern greek it wont do you any good either because thats what it translates it into
So there's no place online for the, english only, layman to go? Good book?
Originally posted by Marduk
...when you really get into this subject you soon see that Jowett assumes a lot and doesnt translate very well at all
like for instance where he says
This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,
this line in the original greek reads
this power came forth from the Atlantis sea
the next line is a big clue as to how badly Jowett got it wrong
for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;
so if it really is the Atlantic he is suggesting that it wasn't navigatable in Platos time
did someone build a wall across it ?
Jowett simply translated the text in line with the belief at that time that the only sea local enough to greece and large enough to hide a continent was the Atlantic since we know have mapped the entire floor of the ocean and know about plate tectonics ots fairly obvious that wherever it was it wasn't in the Atlantic.
(My emphasis.)
This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Originally posted by Marduk...the place was actually named after the Atlas mountains which were named as Herodotus as the place where Atlas stood both Apollodorus and Strabo pointed out that Herodotus often made it up as he went along
(My emphasis again.) Source: The Critias
He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.
Originally posted by Marduk...if this is the case then both Herodotus and Jowett are equally responsible for the belief that that particular line indicates something when in fact it doesnt Plato clearly had no idea of the exact location of the lost continent or he could easily have said so like "1000 miles west of greece" how easy would that have been
so Jowetts translation is heavily flawed and the general rule is "hmm i don't like that piece of evidence because it doesnt match my theory so I will totally disregard it as it doesnt match my personal belief"
Near Gades/Gadeira (modern Cádiz, just beyond the strait) was the westernmost temple of Tyrian Heracles (Melqart), near the eastern shore of the island (Strabo 3.5.2–3). Strabo notes (3.5.5–6) that the two bronze pillars within the temple, each 8 cubits high, were widely proclaimed to be the true Pillars of Heracles by many who had visited the place and had sacrificed to Heracles there. But Strabo believes the account to be fraudulent, in part noting that the inscriptions on those pillars mentioned nothing about Heracles, speaking only of the expenses incurred by the Phoenicians in their making. The columns of the Melqart temple at Tyre were also of religious significance.
Couldn't do that after the place sank because there was no way to navigate across that much open sea in those days. That's the way I read it anyway.
I don't trust Herodotus either, but Greek tradition predating Herodotus holds that Atlas' perch was located in the west
Originally posted by Marduk
Herodotus is the source who claimed that the pillars of Heracles were the straights of Gibraltar from which this later belief stems
I could name you a few more better greek historians who disagreed with him
even Wiki mentions one of them
Strabo
Near Gades/Gadeira (modern Cádiz, just beyond the strait) was the westernmost temple of Tyrian Heracles (Melqart), near the eastern shore of the island (Strabo 3.5.2–3). Strabo notes (3.5.5–6) that the two bronze pillars within the temple, each 8 cubits high, were widely proclaimed to be the true Pillars of Heracles by many who had visited the place and had sacrificed to Heracles there. But Strabo believes the account to be fraudulent, in part noting that the inscriptions on those pillars mentioned nothing about Heracles, speaking only of the expenses incurred by the Phoenicians in their making. The columns of the Melqart temple at Tyre were also of religious significance.
en.wikipedia.org...
Originally posted by Marduk
Couldn't do that after the place sank because there was no way to navigate across that much open sea in those days. That's the way I read it anyway.
so your claiming that Plato knew about America as evidence for the Atlantic belief
you want to discuss that Harte old friend ?
Originally posted by Marduk
I don't trust Herodotus either, but Greek tradition predating Herodotus holds that Atlas' perch was located in the west
actually the direction was given as either towards or away from Venus
which shortly before Herodootus time changed direction
towards the evening star meant west
towards the morning star meant east
after pythagoras realised that the morning star and the evening star were both one of the same these directions became confused and were often just given as west
The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Some derive it from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others suggest that it is a pre-Indo-European name. Since the Atlas mountains fell in the region inhabited by Berbers, it could be that the name as we know it is taken from Berber.
At first, the story of Atlas referred to one mountain only, [p. 407] which was believed to exist on the extreme boundary of the earth; but, as geographical knowledge extended, the name of Atlas was transferred to other places, and thus we read of a Mauritanian, Italian, Arcadian, and even of a Caucasian, Atlas. (Apollod. iii. 10. § 1 ; Dionys. i. 61; Serv. ad Aen. viii. 134.) The common opinion, however, was, that the heaven-bearing Atlas was in the north-western part of Africa, and the range of mountains in that part of the world bears the name of Atlas down to this day.
THE HESPERIDES were the goddess nymphs of evening and of the golden light of sunset
Originally posted by Marduk
quite frankly Harte you either have to take Platos accounts one of two ways
either Plato was transcribing 100% details as they had come down to him
or he was heavy fictionalising an event that had taken place
the event was a flood around 9500bce
Source
... when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows...
From this quote we are supposed to understand that Strabo didn't think the Straights of Heracles meant Gibraltar?
Now, Marduk. You certainly know me better than that! Plato was claiming that the Atlantis Sea was navigable because of the island chain. Most "navigation" of those days was done by following the land, as you know very well. Since Plato (Plato, not me,) was claiming there was an island chain, that would by definition make the Atlantis Sea "navigable."
Exactly the sort of manipulating of the story I was talking about. There's very little doubt that the tradition, which is much older that either Herodotus or Pythagorus, holds that Atlas' perch was in the west:
The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Some derive it from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others suggest that it is a pre-Indo-European name
ATLAS
Gender: Masculine
Usage: Greek Mythology
Other Scripts: Ατλας (Ancient Greek)
Pronounced: AT-las [key]
Means "not enduring" from the Greek negative prefix α combined with τλαω (tlao) "to endure". In Greek mythology he was a Titan punished by Zeus by being forced to support the heavens on his shoulders.