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Democrats Calling For Universal Health Care Within 6 Years

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posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Togetic
I have to ask about the stories about long waits for non-essential surgeries. I also have to question claims that doctors are moving out of Canada into the United States. Do you have any knowledge about those claims?

Yes, there can be wait times for non-emergency surgeries. The length depends on what the surgery is. Every province has some kind of pilot program going to help reduce them, some are working out quite well.

There are doctors who move to the US because they can charge more money for services. There are many more doctors who stay in Canada because they value the system.


Originally posted by Togetic
Also, there was a doctor in Denmark about 20 years ago that said that rising costs in the national health care system would require dispensing with routine checkups because they might detect conditions that would require treatment, lengthen life expectancy, and thereby increase costs. Are there safeguards in place that keep the government from moving towards this result?

A big part of our program is prevention. Routine checkups and tests can catch things before they worsen, which actually saves money in the long run. The plan is to keep Canadians healthy so that we can contribute tax money and not end up in hospital for something that could have been prevented/caught early by easy access to treatment.

The safeguard we have against our governments messing with our access to healthcare is called an election.
No government is going to survive dismantling our healthcare programs. It is far too important to Canadians.


Originally posted by Togetic
Also, is there research positively correlating the life expectancy of Canadians with Americans with their respective life styles?

There could be but I have no idea where to find it. I'm sure there are many factors which affect life expectancy, and a big one could be the number of firearm deaths in the US. I suspect that if firearm deaths were taken out of the equation, the US would score higher on life expectancy.




posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 07:50 PM
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Everyone seems to forget that William Jefferson Clinton and wife (Hillary) promised national health care after he was elected in 1992. Where is it?
(see the last paragraph of the link below)

National health care will not happen here in the U.S. anytime soon. It has been used as a tool by many different politicos for many decades.

www.answers.com...

[edit on 26-1-2007 by TheAvenger]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 11:46 PM
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I don't think we should consider using the Canadian system if we ever go to universal healthcare. It is in actuality a 3-tiered system, with the richest Canadians coming to the US for quality, timely care:



Liberalization proposals are met by the “two-tier system” bogey man—that if choice is allowed an unequal system will develop. But if directly paying a doctor is illegal, there are legal ways to jump the queues. As pointed out by Professor Livio Di Matteo of Lakehead University in Ontario, what now exists is a three-tier system. The very rich (like Robert Bourassa, the late Premier of Québec) go to the U.S. for rapid, personalized, high-tech treatments. The second tier is made of “the well informed and aggressive, who can push their way to the front of the treatment line.” The poor and those with no connections get stuck in the queue.

www.independent.org...

The article states that Indian groups are considering building their own clinics and hospitals on their land, presumably because of dissatisfaction with the Canadian system.



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 11:56 PM
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I support reform and improvement in healthcare. But Universal Healthcare like Canada and Europe...no. There are too many problems, and too many illegals.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 12:30 AM
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Regarding the article that jsobecky posted, it is a few years out of date. We do have private hospitals, Quebec allows people to buy private health insurance and any doctor who wishes to can opt out of the system and bill privately. We are constantly looking for ways to improve things and spend our money more effectively.

As for the First Nations, if they are considering building clinics, it's to make money. Why not build a clinic to increase access to healthcare, keep your First Nations doctors in their community and make some money at the same time? Nobody ever said the First Nations aren't smart businesspeople.

People that can afford to go to the US free up space for people that can't. I give them a big
for freeing up a space in the queue.

In my opinion, a mix of private and public healthcare is a good thing. I would love to see more private clinics open up, while retaining our public system. There is plenty of room for smart business people to open up MRI clinic, labs, etc. and it reduces the amount of our funding that needs to go to building and equipment.

I'm not a complete ideologue when it comes to this topic. I acknowledge that the system is not perfect. I know it's fun to call down the Canadian system and gives people a sense of superiority, but it's not as horrible as it is made out to be. It's not perfect, but what in life is?



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 12:43 AM
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Why do we keep having to repeat the same mistake over and over again. Socialism and central planning always create scarcity. Free markets always create bounty. Unfortunately our current system is run by corporate monopolies called insurance companies. Without cost transparency and with burdensome regulation, U.S. health care costs skyrocket.

But to compare socialized medicine with free markets, consider canada or great britain. There are more MRI machines in the state of WA than all of canada. Canadians must wait to get medical imaging. I can usually get imaged within a few days if I need it. Canadians come to the U.S. to get life saving heart surgery. They must otherwise wait for months to get help in Canada. Similar problems occur in Great Britain. It is virtually impossible to find a dentist in Britain unless you are willing to pay out of pocket. (There was one man who resorted to super gluing a broken crown.)

Cuba's socialist health care system is so incompetent that they may have killed off their fearless leader whilst performing a routine operation. Interestingly while health insurance controled health care is out of control in America, procedures that typically are not covered by insurance, such as vision correction or plastic surgery have steadily been decreasing in price, becoming both more affordable and more effective over the years, precisely because free markets have dictated this outcome.

Nevertheless the brain washed uneducated masses, with the help of illegals wanting more freebies will probably demand 'universal' health care. After that there will probably not be anywhere in the world where you will be able to get effective health care. Canadians will probably be pissed off that they can't come to America for life saving surgery anymore.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 07:39 AM
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Do away with "Health Insurance" and the cost will go down drastically.

Health insurance Co's. used to pay off like a broken slot machine when they were flushed with cash back in the day.

The last I knew Etena Insurance was handling Medicare. Etena is a private company, so if we get "Universal Health Care" it will be through a private company one that the Dem's like.

Money pumped into this Insurance Co. will make you forget all about Halliburton.


AND, all the money coming out of your pay check to fund this little act of Socialism will/should make you very angry, BECAUSE this "Free service" will always be going broke.


Roper



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 07:53 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Regarding the article that jsobecky posted, it is a few years out of date. We do have private hospitals, Quebec allows people to buy private health insurance and any doctor who wishes to can opt out of the system and bill privately. We are constantly looking for ways to improve things and spend our money more effectively.
I'm not a complete ideologue when it comes to this topic. I acknowledge that the system is not perfect. I know it's fun to call down the Canadian system and gives people a sense of superiority, but it's not as horrible as it is made out to be. It's not perfect, but what in life is?

Duzey

Thatnks for the updated info on the Canadian system. It appears that I was working with outdated info, even though it was only 3 years old.

I hope you don't think that it was my intent to demean the Canadian system, because it wasn't. I just don't think it is a good model for the US.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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I think the Canadian system takes a bad rap, and although some is, not all of it is entirely deserved. I am openly biased in favor of it, as it has saved the ass of my family on more than one occasion.

In a window of three years, my family went through two bouts of cancer, one heart attack, and two weeks in a coma. Now what would be a rough estimate of cost for an American? Your guess would be as good as mine. It never cost our family one penny. We went in for gall bladder surgery I believe, and that is when the first cancer diagnosis was done. Four days later he was under the knife and had a very extensive surgery where a few parts were removed. A few weeks of recovery, and he was released. Private room, very professional care, and all of his needs were met. So in less than two weeks the cancer was diagnosed and then removed. All at a reasonable cost, nothing.

This same family member suffered a heart attack a few months later and rested in a coma for almost two weeks. We were not even billed for the ambulance, which I did not understand. But once again he was provided adequate treatment, which is vital when one is in a coma. Constant attention, turning of the body, etc., is all needed to assure the health of the body.

I'm sure that examples can be used to go against the system, but I wish to make it clear that our system has a tremendous upside. There are times when we are required to wait a short period of time, but at least we are assured the proper treatment.

I find it is the same story over and over. Some Americans want universal health care, some don't. But most agree that they do not want the Canadian system. Not really sure why it takes some a bad rap. Positives exist, and I've been lucky enough to enjoy them.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 08:14 AM
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When Hillary is elected president in the next election I'm sure we will all be forced into 'Hillarycare'. Oh .. if Hillarycare had gone through back int he 1990's Bill Clinton would have died before getting his heart surgery. Her system would have killed her husband. IMHO he wouldn't have gotten surgery in time.


Originally posted by LogansRun
didn't they try to grant amnisty to the 12 million or so undocumented people here in the US?


They are here ILLEGALLY. That makes them CRIMINALS. And there are more than '12 million or so'. The TV news yesterday said 40 million.


Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I dont get how Pelosi can be a fan of this concept when hospitals in her own state close regularly due to all the illegals drowning the system.


Pelosi is a flake. It's just that simple.


Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
It's not free, someone's paying or it...obvisouly not you though, since we don't have a tax for Universal Healthcare, so why do you care?


You are right, nothing is free. But yes, we all end up paying for the health care of illegals. All of us. We don't pay through a 'health care tax' but we pay with higher insurance rates and higher hospital/doctor bills due to the illegals not paying for their healthcare. Just like stores have to raise prices to cover the cost of goods stolen by shoplifters. It's the same thing.


so you can get a free ride (just like those 'mexicans' that 'steal' our healthcare...right?!)


Illegals DO steal healthcare. They also flood hospitals with common illness's and use them as doctor's offices which means that AMERICANS with real emergencies can't get the health care they are entitled to.


df1

posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't think we should consider using the Canadian system if we ever go to universal healthcare.

We should just use the American system which is already in place. It's called Medicare, we know it works and the infrastructure is already in place. All that needs to be done is to remove the age limitation and this could be working in 6 months instead of 6 years.
.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by jsobecky
I don't think we should consider using the Canadian system if we ever go to universal healthcare.

We should just use the American system which is already in place. It's called Medicare, we know it works and the infrastructure is already in place. All that needs to be done is to remove the age limitation and this could be working in 6 months instead of 6 years.
.


What a great yet simple solution!
However I still favor state run healthcare systems, but this is great [medicare, medicaid] alternative to the greed fueled system currently in place.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I hope you don't think that it was my intent to demean the Canadian system, because it wasn't. I just don't think it is a good model for the US.

What works for one may not work for others.

I just get tired of hearing how crappy our system is, when it isn't. It's just a general observation of how it is viewed in the US.

The only things that people hear are horror stories, and never the good things. Like Chissler's family getting the care they needed, when they needed it. Or my step-father who within two years had a double bypass, got prostate cancer, beat the cancer back into remission, then got vertigo, which was followed by severe anemia that required so many blood transfusions that it 'cured' his Hep C and then went through the whole cancer thing again. He never had to wait for treatment and he's on the mend now, thanks to the Canadian taxpayers.

It's frustrating to see something that has meant so much to my family and thousands of others and kept us out of bankruptcy be denigrated when most people outside of Canada don't know the facts, or how it works.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by Duzey]



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
It's frustrating to see something that has meant so much to my family and thousands of others and kept us out of bankruptcy be denigrated when most people outside of Canada don't know the facts, or how it works.


Oh how I wish I could repay you with one of the Applauses that you have offered me.

I think what some people fail to realize is that many Canadians are happy to serve up their tax dollars for a cause that is just and deserving. If I knew for one second that some of my hard earned dollars went to saving a life that otherwise would of been lost, that means much more than any material item that I could even fathom.

Whichever universal system a country inherits, it is based on the premise that individuals are willing to assist those who need it. My money goes to helping you, just as yours comes to me. My family would be in more debt than a university filled with student loans. But thanks to our system, the credit bureau is only calling for credit cards and Columbia House.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
It's not free, someone's paying or it...obvisouly not you though, since we don't have a tax for Universal Healthcare, so why do you care?


You are right, nothing is free. But yes, we all end up paying for the health care of illegals. All of us. We don't pay through a 'health care tax' but we pay with higher insurance rates and higher hospital/doctor bills due to the illegals not paying for their healthcare. Just like stores have to raise prices to cover the cost of goods stolen by shoplifters. It's the same thing.


That's the POINT! Instead of paying HIGH insurance rates, we'd be taxed directly (pay check), and everyone would have Healthcare. And if those Illegals get a paycheck...well then, they're paying for the healthcare too!

Also, do stores really jack up prices because of shoplifters? Are they that prevalent? Or is it because the CEO of said company who owns a particular product in said store wants an extra yacht this year?



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
Also, do stores really jack up prices because of shoplifters?


YES. There are other reasons why stores jack prices up .. but shoplifters do indeed cause stores to increase the cost of items to cover losses.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
Also, do stores really jack up prices because of shoplifters?


YES. There are other reasons why stores jack prices up .. but shoplifters do indeed cause stores to increase the cost of items to cover losses.


Fair enough, I'm not going to try and find proof otherwise. But just think...

We know illegals get paychecks (using fake SSN, etc.)...so if the HealthCare is a direct tax, say 2-5% or so from your paycheck, then everyone could get healthcare, and those illegals, whle getting the Universal HealthCare, would also be PAYING for it.

It doesn't stop the illegality of them, but it helps to actually MAKE them pay for their treatments.

How is that not a good idea?


ape

posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 08:37 PM
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if anyone knows hillarys history her call for universal healthcare and government control of the medical industry is nothing new, the politcians are so quick to take from ones earnings and give to another and refuse to create poilices to better enable the individual to advance and thrive economically and to be better able to afford such programs instead they want to force them to rely on the government. they want control and power over the individual because they are anti-individual liberty and choice.

the first step to reform our healthcare system and social security is the fairtax plan and repealling and eventually abolishing the 16th amendment and replacing it will bill H.R.25 and creating a more stable and broader tax base and government income.

check it out

fairtax.org...

fairtax.org...

any politican who supports this bill represents individual liberty and note on the congressional scorecard that hillary and obama are against it and mccain does not support because they are all in the pockets of lobbyiest and special interests of our current system much like the republicans who got voted out this past november only to be replaced by the same beast.

being independent is the only way to recognize who represents individual liberty.







[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Arcane Demesne

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
Also, do stores really jack up prices because of shoplifters?


YES. There are other reasons why stores jack prices up .. but shoplifters do indeed cause stores to increase the cost of items to cover losses.


Fair enough, I'm not going to try and find proof otherwise. But just think...

We know illegals get paychecks (using fake SSN, etc.)...so if the HealthCare is a direct tax, say 2-5% or so from your paycheck, then everyone could get healthcare, and those illegals, whle getting the Universal HealthCare, would also be PAYING for it.

It doesn't stop the illegality of them, but it helps to actually MAKE them pay for their treatments.

How is that not a good idea?


Many of the illegals are paid in cash, under the table. If payroll deductions increased, you'd just see more illegals being paid in cash. Both major political parties have failed to correct the illegal immigration problem, and could in a couple of weeks if the laws already on the books were followed:
1. Stiff penalties, including mandatory jail time, for anyone hiring illegals. 2. Guard the borders. #1 would correct the problem immediately; there would be a mass exodus of the illegals back to their native countries. #2 includes the use of force to defend our borders, absolutely our right as a sovereign nation. I have finally learned why the government won't take action on the immigration problem. The Council of Foreign Ralations, who some think IS the invisible government in the U.S., wants the U.S., Mexico and Canada to band together as one nation in their quest, along with others, to establish one world government. The Mexicans want your social security funds too! Scary stuff.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by TheAvenger]



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by TheAvenger

Many of the illegals are paid in cash, under the table. If payroll deductions increased, you'd just see more illegals being paid in cash. Both major political parties have failed to correct the illegal immigration problem, and could in a couple of weeks if the laws already on the books were followed:
1. Stiff penalties, including mandatory jail time, for anyone hiring illegals. 2. Guard the borders. #1 would correct the problem immediately; there would be a mass exodus of the illegals back to their native countries. #2 includes the use of force to defend our borders, absolutely our right as a sovereign nation. I have finally learned why the government won't take action on the immigration problem. The Council of Foreign Ralations, who some think IS the invisible government in the U.S., wants the U.S., Mexico and Canada to band together as one nation in their quest, along with others, to establish one world government. The Mexicans want your social security funds too! Scary stuff.


You I agree with!


Paying people under the table is one thing (kids mawing lawns, lemonade stands, or just a friend who helps you out w/ something), but doing it that way for illegal immigrants is nauseating. Although, jail-time for the hiring of an illegal is kind of much (unless you're a repeat offender), a stiff penalty in fines is definitly what this country needs.



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