Toddler Booted From Plane

Originally posted by resistancia

Originally posted by carslake

Do you people have children. Resisticana does and should know better a three year olds mind is not something you batter into submission its not the kids fault.

What ?? I should know better ? What should I know better ?

Show me where I stated that the child should have been abused ? I speak for me not others.

You did not understand what I posted...read again.

I advocate for good parenting skills and trying to reason rather than use physical violence. A 3 year old is capable of understanding bad behaviour is unacceptable...especially if you set ground rules when they are very young.

[edit on 26-1-2007 by resistancia]

Yeah I take that back and offer an apology resisticana that said do you remember being a first time parent its a steep learning curve. The toddler is probably testing its boundaries and could also be undergoing a natural hormone imbalance.

I'm just a bit surprised at people, I know its not what people mean literally, but when you place 'bastard', 'brat', 'smacking', 'booting off' and 'throwing off' and the words toddlers in the same sentence I get agitated. You can't control a child that is in a rage by smacking them.

If you've got a bond with your 3 year old you can reason with them or bribe them most of the time but a smack only works at certain times. Sometimes you have to give people a break, did the couple argue with flight crew enough to warrant a 24hr ban, or were they just given it for the inconvenience they caused.

I say ban all religious freaks, bibles and Korans, also littler screaming children and the mentally challenged, we need to ban also ugly people, pretty people, big people and small people.

Actually we need to ban all regular joes.

Like that, airplanes will be peaceful.

I smell discrimination against littler children.

Originally posted by marg6043
I smell discrimination against littler children.

I know we're both married, but.... I LOVE YOU!!!!



Funny thing is that by removing the child from the plane, Airtran (and all the other approving adults) gave her exactly what she wanted.

It’s also likely, the only consequence this 3 year old learned was her behavior can trump the will of her parents if she can manage to get OTHER adults involved.

Real nice... and how depressing...









[edit on 26-1-2007 by loam]

loam
Once they get older you can have a much more interesting relationship with them, but in the meantime, you need strategies to get their attention, divert their attention, and warn them away from dangerous/inappropriate behaviors - in other words, you have to manipulate them. Failing that, you need to save the rest of the people in the area the frustration of having to be passively involved in your discipline problem by picking up the child and leaving.

You hear the word discipline, and assume I'm some sort of authoritarian monster, but that's not the case. I just take the notion of responsibility very seriously. As parents, we have a responsibility to care for our children, and to teach them the right way to act in society. As citizens, we have a responsibility to society to mitigate the impact of our children.

I'm simply in awe at the number of parenting guides that counsel parents to ignore temper tantrums.



Maybe that works for the parents, maybe it even works for the kids, but it doesn't work for the rest of us. Ignoring the child's misbehavior does not seem like a good strategy from where I'm sitting - it might work at home, but in public?!

Physically pick the kid up, and leave. Show a little respect for the rest of us.

That said, I don't think ignoring the tantrum is a viable strategy. If it was, I suspect we would be in a much better position in this country, in terms of well-behaved children. Getting angry doens't help either, that just provides a terrible example.

The best advice I have read in cases where the child is uncontrolled, running around, hitting, shouting, and so on - HOLD THEM. Grab onto them and hold them until they cease the behavior. No anger, no beatings, no shouting, no repetetive requests ("sit down, sit down, sit down, listen to me, sit down, sit down.."), just hold them and don't let go until they've calmed down.

We both read the same story about this incident. The kid was loose on the plane, climbing under seats, hitting mom, screaming and crying, and after fifteen minutes the parents were still unable to control the behavior. What the Hell were they doing all that time? Reasoning with their three year-old?

Sorry, but that speaks to a shocking lack of discipline in that household. I can only wonder at the sort of relationship those parents have with their child.

WyrdeOne

I feel like we are holding two entirely different conversations.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
loam

Once they get older you can have a much more interesting relationship with them, but in the meantime, you need strategies to get their attention, divert their attention, and warn them away from dangerous/inappropriate behaviors - in other words, you have to manipulate them. Failing that, you need to save the rest of the people in the area the frustration of having to be passively involved in your discipline problem by picking up the child and leaving.

In most public places, I agree. It’s the courteous thing to do.

But where mass transportation is involved, does this really make sense? As a matter of public policy, do we really want to encourage a no tolerance policy for the normal crying behavior of very young children?

Even the other passengers in this story seemed more understanding about the situation than the Airlines (or the many others not witness to this particular incident).

The passengers, meanwhile, were quite understanding and one of them offered the toddler a lollipop, which she rejected.

Link.

Why was the child even upset in the first place?

Why do you, or anyone, even assume this is about poor discipline? Poor planning?

Maybe she hurt herself in some real and unrecognized manner….pinched a finger…twisted a leg…

What if, as in the following example, she was developmentally challenged in some manner:

Christopher Tatro of Hopkinton: “Your piece about Elly Kulesza and her family interested me greatly, because the exact same thing happened to my family on an AirTran flight from Atlanta to Logan on Jan. 1, 2006. My wife and 4-year-old autistic son were flying home from visiting relatives in Florida and when he was crying as their connection in Atlanta was boarding, the crew immediately threw the two of them off the plane. We never received any offer of compensation from AirTran, so I’m glad the Kulesza family did. But I do wonder if this has happened to many more families.”

Link.

How reasonable is that?

It’s unfortunate Mr. Tatro does not realize AirTran’s decision with regard to his child potentially violates the law.

In particular, the disabled traveller is permitted carriage, regardless of whether their disability may affect his of her involuntary behaviour, or annoy, offend or put out any member of staff or fellow passengers…

Link.

But let’s face it… What most people are really saying is that a crying child should NEVER be welcome on an airline. End of story.

It also seems likely to me, AirTran is a lot less concerned with any reason for a crying child and a lot more concerned for their reporting requirements to the Department of Transportation:

The U.S. Department of Transportation's (DOT) Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) tracks the on-time performance of domestic flights operated by large air carriers.

Link.

A flight is counted as "on time" if it operated less than 15 minutes later the scheduled time shown in the carriers' Computerized Reservations Systems (CRS). Arrival performance is based on arrival at the gate. Departure performance is based on departure from the gate.

Link.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
You hear the word discipline, and assume I'm some sort of authoritarian monster, but that's not the case.

I did? Where?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I just take the notion of responsibility very seriously.

Which by implication, and because I disagree with you, indicates that I must not?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
As parents, we have a responsibility to care for our children, and to teach them the right way to act in society.

True. No argument from me on that point. But what does that have to do with this situation? Is your standard of proof that these parents failed in that responsibility based solely on this one 15 minute example…and as described by the airlines?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
As citizens, we have a responsibility to society to mitigate the impact of our children.

Mitigate or eliminate? I think it’s clear that many would prefer eliminate.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I'm simply in awe at the number of parenting guides that counsel parents to ignore temper tantrums.

That’s because the technique, when used correctly, very often works. ( See, for example, www.kidshealth.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Tantrums. )

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Maybe that works for the parents, maybe it even works for the kids, but it doesn't work for the rest of us.

Ignoring the child's misbehavior does not seem like a good strategy from where I'm sitting - it might work at home, but in public?!

And this relates to the Kuleszas how?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Physically pick the kid up, and leave.

Show a little respect for the rest of us.

What would you suggest in flight?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That said, I don't think ignoring the tantrum is a viable strategy. If it was, I suspect we would be in a much better position in this country, in terms of well-behaved children. Getting angry doens't help either, that just provides a terrible example.

The best advice I have read in cases where the child is uncontrolled, running around, hitting, shouting, and so on - HOLD THEM. Grab onto them and hold them until they cease the behavior.

WyrdeOne, I’m surprised you think that’s the magic bullet. In fact, after that statement, I can only assume you have either forgotten the nature of very young children or never understood it to begin with.

Every child…and every situation is different.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
No anger, no beatings, no shouting, no repetetive requests ("sit down, sit down, sit down, listen to me, sit down, sit down.."), just hold them and don't let go until they've calmed down.

I’m sorry, I’m still laughing… And this would help with the crying how?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
We both read the same story about this incident. The kid was loose on the plane, climbing under seats, hitting mom, screaming and crying, and after fifteen minutes the parents were still unable to control the behavior. What the Hell were they doing all that time? Reasoning with their three year-old?

Sorry, but that speaks to a shocking lack of discipline in that household. I can only wonder at the sort of relationship those parents have with their child.

That’s part the airline’s version and part your assumptions. Where does it say they were responsible for the full 15 minute delay? The parents also have a different view.

Moreover, I notice that you are quick to disclose some facts, but make no comment on the airline’s subsequent decision to ban the family for 24 hours as a safety risk.

The funny thing is, even the airline initially believed they over-reacted:

AirTran, meanwhile, has apparently had a change of heart. After the airline received a phone call Thursday from yours truly, an AirTran customer service rep called the Kuleszas, apologized profusely for the incident and refunded them the $595 cost of their tickets.

“We do believe the situation could have been handled differently,” said AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver. “We will use this case as a means to train our agents on dealing with this type of situation on our flights … While there are FAA regulations that mandate all passengers have to be securely fastened in their seat belts before a plane can depart, we need to work with our customers in situations like this to help them — and that is what we will focus on.”

Link.

Given AirtTran’s alleged treatment of the mother with an autistic child, AirTran’s decision to ban the Kulesza family from flight for 24 hours as a safety risk, and AirTran's inconsistent position on this story, I’d say AirTran's description of the events in this case is more than suspect.

But like I said, even more disturbing to me is the very hostile reaction so many are prepared to dish out without even being sure of all the facts.

The mere presence of an emotional outburst from a small child is all that is required for so many to judge the family a failure.

Good grief!

:shk:

[edit on 27-1-2007 by loam]

(Edit to add: that source you posted cracked me up, the one that had two different opinion pieces about the incident, written by the same woman, including reader feedback. This bit especially stuck with me...)

link
On this newspaper’s Web site, the column ranks as one of the most-viewed stories of all time, second only to a story last year about a two-headed cat from Millbury.

Anyway, moving on...

In most public places, I agree. It’s the courteous thing to do.

But where mass transportation is involved, does this really make sense? As a matter of public policy, do we really want to encourage a no tolerance policy for the normal crying behavior of very young children?

Even the other passengers in this story seemed more understanding about the situation than the Airlines (or the many others not witness to this particular incident).

I don't see why mass transporation should be any exception.

I think that the reaction to this story speaks volumes about how often we deal with this situation in our daily lives. I can't remember a single Greyhound trip, a single flight, or very many trips to the movies where a misbehaving child didn't cause problems.

We weren't witness to this event, but we've seen it a thousand times before.

My parents didn't take me out to public places, like theaters and restaurants, until I had learned to behave myself. Why are other parents having such a hard time with this concept?

Why was the child even upset in the first place?

Why do you, or anyone, even assume this is about poor discipline? Poor planning?

I don't think it matters much why she was upset - being upset and causing a scene are two different things. The poor discipline, in my mind, shows in the failure of the parents to remedy the situation.

'We're trying'



Uh-huh. Yoda has some advice. "Do or do not, there is no try."

What exactly were they doing, what efforts were they making? Probably trying to reason with the kid, like I see every other parent in this situation doing. It doesn't work. That's not a peer, on the ground there, flailing and screaming her head off, that's a child. So be a parent, take control of the situation and end it. Pick the kid up, place them where they need to be, and let the plane take off.

Maybe they're doing everything right, and this was a freak occurence, but it seems to me that if the child is acting out like this in the first place (nevermind their inability to stop the behavior once it began) then something is wrong.

I can't possibly be the only child in the world who never threw a tantrum. In fact, I know I'm not, because my in-laws say the same for my significant other - she never threw a tantrum. Why not? Are we better than everyone else? Of course not. We were trained properly.

Just as children have to be trained not to go to the bathroom in the living room, they have to be trained how NOT to display their anger and their frustration in the form of a tantrum.

Do parents potty-train their children by ignoring them? Of course not. So why do they think this strategy is going to work for tantrums?

What if, as in the following example, she was developmentally challenged in some manner

Nothing I've read indicates that, but if you're interested in debating the hypothetical, I'm game.

I have a very low tolerance for behavior of this sort, and I don't particularly care what the child's problems are; we've all got problems.

If the problems are so severe they lead to outbursts in public places, produce violence or uncontrollable mood swings (opening a big old can of worms here..) perhaps the parents should take it upon themselves to reduce their impact on society by limiting their child's exposure to situations likely to set them off.

I went to High School with a girl who had Down's Syndrome, she was in special classes but we ate in the same lunchroom and I often saw her in the halls. She had the habit of randomly punching people, other girls mostly, she did it three times in my three years there, that I'm aware of, and for no apparent reason.

One time she bit a girl and pulled a good chunk of her hair out, again for no apparent reason. Another time she punched a guy and chased him around - he was noble enough not to hit back, so he basically just had to run in circles. It was funny for bystanders at the time, but in hindsight it wasn't cool at all. This girl was a menace, but because of her special needs she was immune to punishment.

I don't think her parents' right to state-funded babysitting services outweighed the students' rights to a safe and sane learning environment, but that's just me.

In the same vein, air travelers' right to a safe and sane commute outweigh little what's-her-name's right to throw a tantrum when and where she chooses. If her parents had simply restrained her, physically, none of this would have happened.

We've all dealt with crying babies. It's an annoyance, but hardly a hill to die on. But when the kid is crawling and climbing and hitting and screaming, and the parents are trying to reason with them, or worse yet, just ignoring them, it drives me nuts. Grab the kid and don't let go until you get where you're going or the behavior stops, whichever comes first.

But let’s face it… What most people are really saying is that a crying child should NEVER be welcome on an airline. End of story.

No, I just think people are tired of uncontrolled children. Ever been on an airplane or a bus where there's a kid running around totally free, parents sleeping or staring out the window while their child rampages around unchecked?

It's far beyond annoying...

Which by implication, and because I disagree with you, indicates that I must not?

No, we can probably disagree as to the scale, or the particulars, without disagreeing on the fundamentals, and that's what seems to be the case here.

True. No argument from me on that point. But what does that have to do with this situation? Is your standard of proof that these parents failed in that responsibility based solely on this one 15 minute example…and as described by the airlines?

My appraisal of their failure in this situation is not a judgement of them as parents. I don't think one situation is going to make or break the chances of the kid growing up to be a productive and respectful member of society.

But, I do see their inability to control their child on the plane as a failure on their part, in this one situation, at the least. Doesn't mean they're bad parents, but it does mean they've failed to excercise good judgement in this situation. My guess is that it's not the first time, and probably won't be the last. We all fail from time to time, but that's no reason to be content with it.

They could learn from this fiasco. Sounds to me like they don't have any interest in doing that though, they would rather get indignant and shift the blame for their child's behavior elsewhere.

Mitigate or eliminate? I think it’s clear that many would prefer eliminate.

I don't think that's possible, unless you keep them inside until they're twenty, and then we've got even worse problems.

I really think that people are reacting strongly because they see a shift in the standards of parenting, and in the behavior of children in general. This one situation is a catalyst for people to vent some anger about the general state of the country.

What would you suggest in flight?

Well, they hadn't taken off yet, so that's not an issue. If the plane had taken off, and the kid went haywire, I would suggest holding onto them, phsyically restraining them until they calmed down or the plane landed, whichever came first.

You don't just let a 3 year old child run amok on an airplane, no matter what the internet parenting guides say.

WyrdeOne, I’m surprised you think that’s the magic bullet. In fact, after that statement, I can only assume you have either forgotten the nature of very young children or never understood it to begin with.

Every child…and every situation is different.

Yeah, but we're talking about one situation - small child freaking out on an airplane full of passengers. Restrain the kid to prevent them from harming themselves or anyone else.

If nothing else, holding onto the kid will reassure them and hopefully calm them down.

It's not like I'm advocating a headlock here, I'm talking about a hug.

I’m sorry, I’m still laughing… And this would help with the crying how?

The crying isn't the issue, it's the climbing, running, crawling and hitting that pose a serious problem. Like I said before, we've all dealt with crying children. It sucks, but it's manageable.

That’s part the airline’s version and part your assumptions. Where does it say they were responsible for the full 15 minute delay? The parents also have a different view.

That's according to the airline, and it hasn't been disputed by the parents, to my knowledge.

Moreover, I notice that you are quick to disclose some facts, but make no comment on the airline’s subsequent decision to ban the family for 24 hours as a safety risk.

Well, that seems silly to me, but it's neither here nor there. I don't see a problem with letting them on the next flight if the kid is under control.

AirTran, meanwhile, has apparently had a change of heart. After the airline received a phone call Thursday from yours truly, an AirTran customer service rep called the Kuleszas, apologized profusely for the incident and refunded them the $595 cost of their tickets.

They were anticipating a negative PR nightmare, little did they know how much support they would receive.

Seriously, people are fed up because kids are out of control.

Whether it's three year olds or thirteen year olds, kids are freakin' nuts in this country, and the parents want to blame everyone but themselves.

Given AirtTran’s alleged treatment of the mother with an autistic child, AirTran’s decision to ban the Kulesza family from flight for 24 hours as a safety risk, and AirTran's inconsistent position on this story, I’d say AirTran's description of the events in this case is more than suspect.

You may be right, time will tell.

But like I said, even more disturbing to me is the very hostile reaction so many are prepared to dish out without even being sure of all the facts.

I think it's safe to say that most people have ample evidence from their own experience that creates bias. Lord knows I've had enough experience with uncontrolled kids to last me a lifetime. So, it's only natural to assume that this incident is in line with all the others. If info surfaces speaking to another conclusion, then it will add a tiny weight to the other end of the balance beam.



[edit on 27-1-2007 by WyrdeOne]

As a mother I got this worlds for you people.

Children get cranky, they cry, scream and get into tantrums.

So what people wants to do with such troublesome littler human beings?

Lets put them on Ritalin or prozac and have a happy, happy time and lets forget that adults were once littler screaming troublesome small people.

Our society is going on the wrong way when it comes with making each other too comfortable.

BTW airplane rides are not suppoused to be comfortable or each one of us will be enjoying private rooms within the plane.

Loam love you too.!!!!!!!!

How disappointing…

WyrdeOne:

I have read your response, and throughout much of it, I again feel we are talking about two separate issues.

A few things are clear to me…

You do not acknowledge the fact that very young children are NOT physiologically or psychologically capable of consistently controlling their behavior. If you change the age of this child by a couple of years (and assuming no abnormal developmental issues), then I’m more inclined to suspect the poor parenting problem you believe is the case. But given the age of the child…this situation is not so clear.

Unlike you, I also see a distinction between restaurants/movie theaters and mass transportation. If you’d like to discuss the public policy reasons why this should be the case, then I’d be glad to do so.

Please don’t be offended, but I also think you have either never had very young children, you have forgotten the experience altogether, or never really understood them to begin with. Not all tantrums equal “misbehavior”. They are, in fact, a natural consequence of a child’s physical and psychological development. I see two “classes” of tantrums…you only see one.

You are also converting this story into something it is not.

If you want to discuss poor parenting skills, and the plethora of examples of it, fine. I’m right there with you. It is a very serious problem and needs to be addressed.

But some of what you write, blows me away…

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I think that the reaction to this story speaks volumes about how often we deal with this situation in our daily lives. I can't remember a single Greyhound trip, a single flight, or very many trips to the movies where a misbehaving child didn't cause problems.

You must have terrible luck then. My experience isn’t so universal. Moreover, I suspect the real problem here, as I mention above, is that you equate all “tantrums” with “misbehaving”. Believe what you will, but where very small children are concerned, they are not the same. Your denial of it does not change the fact of it.

We will obviously not agree here.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
We weren't witness to this event, but we've seen it a thousand times before.

If you weren’t witness to the event, then how have you seen it a thousand times before? You just assume you have.

See, the problem is that in your book NOTHING justifies the tantrum of a child. Even Mr. Tatro’s autistic child would not receive your understanding or sympathy…

:shk:

Since I hardly believe you undertook a thorough investigation of your “thousand” examples, I can only assume you prefer the summary judgment method of assigning blame to the poor parenting skills of the parents.

AirTran didn’t care why, and neither apparently do you. All that matters is the presence of the behavior. It becomes a strict liability offense…

Beware those with young or developmentally challenged children…they are not welcome in public society. Period.

Nice world view.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
My parents didn't take me out to public places, like theaters and restaurants, until I had learned to behave myself. Why are other parents having such a hard time with this concept?

These parents weren’t taking their child to the theater or a restaurant. They were on a plane. You may see that as a wholly discretionary choice, but as I said before, I think as a matter of public policy it should be viewed as otherwise.

Incidentally, when you say “public places” would that also include grocery stores…lodging…other forms of public transportation?

Think this one through, WyrdeOne. What precisely are you advocating?

Again, you will receive no argument from me where the child is developmentally capable of restraint and the parents fail to address inappropriate behavior. That drives me as insane as the next guy.

But like I said before, I feel like we are talking about two different matters.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I don't think it matters much why she was upset - being upset and causing a scene are two different things.

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Again, I just find it hard to believe you have any experience with young children.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The poor discipline, in my mind, shows in the failure of the parents to remedy the situation.

'We're trying'

Uh-huh. Yoda has some advice. "Do or do not, there is no try."

Same comment as above.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
What exactly were they doing, what efforts were they making?

You don’t know, do you? But you’re completely comfortable assuming the worst.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Probably trying to reason with the kid, like I see every other parent in this situation doing. It doesn't work.

Let’s be clear. There is a difference between negotiating with your child and explaining what behavior is unacceptable, explaining the consequence of noncompliance and executing accordingly.

But I guess you would see that as “trying to reason with the kid”.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That's not a peer, on the ground there, flailing and screaming her head off, that's a child. So be a parent, take control of the situation and end it. Pick the kid up, place them where they need to be, and let the plane take off.

If your version of the facts are correct, then I may not disagree. But that isn’t clear now is it?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Maybe they're doing everything right, and this was a freak occurence,

But you already decided otherwise… And, btw, the parents do assert it was a freak occurrence.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
…but it seems to me that if the child is acting out like this in the first place (nevermind their inability to stop the behavior once it began) then something is wrong.

Again, in your view, the behavior becomes a strict liability offense.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I can't possibly be the only child in the world who never threw a tantrum. In fact, I know I'm not, because my in-laws say the same for my significant other - she never threw a tantrum. Why not? Are we better than everyone else? Of course not. We were trained properly.

Define tantrum. Because if you are trying to peddle the notion that you or your significant other never had a meltdown under the age of 3 or 4, you WOULD be abnormal…and extremely so.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Just as children have to be trained not to go to the bathroom in the living room, they have to be trained how NOT to display their anger and their frustration in the form of a tantrum.

Yes, I quite agree. But could you kindly share what secret technique needs only be deployed once to permanently solve such behavior for a child of any age? With such effectiveness, you could make a fortune and resolve the matter altogether for society.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Do parents potty-train their children by ignoring them? Of course not.

So why do they think this strategy is going to work for tantrums?

First, they are not equivalent problems.

Second, “ignoring” is not the same as withholding stimulus in response to the behavior. One is done with purpose, the other is not.

Moreover, I got news for you. When I compare my 3 yr old son’s behavior to others who have not used this technique properly, the difference is night and day. Again, THE DIFFERENCE IS NIGHT AND DAY.

My son does not throw tantrums. (I can only really think of two in the last year…and they lasted less than 15 min. – It occurs to me that that might not be good enough for you. ) The other parents, who have not followed that strategy, do not fare as well in terms of frequency or duration…and I mean by a LONG SHOT!

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

What if, as in the following example, she was developmentally challenged in some manner

Nothing I've read indicates that, but if you're interested in debating the hypothetical, I'm game.

What hypothetical? Mr. Tatro’s example happened with the same airlines. Is he lying?

Christopher Tatro of Hopkinton: “Your piece about Elly Kulesza and her family interested me greatly, because the exact same thing happened to my family on an AirTran flight from Atlanta to Logan on Jan. 1, 2006. My wife and 4-year-old autistic son were flying home from visiting relatives in Florida and when he was crying as their connection in Atlanta was boarding, the crew immediately threw the two of them off the plane. We never received any offer of compensation from AirTran, so I’m glad the Kulesza family did. But I do wonder if this has happened to many more families.”

Link.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I have a very low tolerance for behavior of this sort, and I don't particularly care what the child's problems are; we've all got problems.

And this is where I get sick in my stomach.

If you have ever wondered how we got where we are today in this country, and elsewhere, you need only to look at that sentence above. I think it explains much.

...

[edit on 27-1-2007 by loam]

(cont.)

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
If the problems are so severe they lead to outbursts in public places, produce violence or uncontrollable mood swings (opening a big old can of worms here..) perhaps the parents should take it upon themselves to reduce their impact on society by limiting their child's exposure to situations likely to set them off.

In the absence of violence, the rest of your statement is chilling to me…

Did you hit your head? I’m having real trouble reconciling your view on this subject and your apparent view on so many other topics found on this board.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I went to High School with a girl who had Down's Syndrome, she was in special classes but we ate in the same lunchroom and I often saw her in the halls. She had the habit of randomly punching people, other girls mostly, she did it three times in my three years there, that I'm aware of, and for no apparent reason.

One time she bit a girl and pulled a good chunk of her hair out, again for no apparent reason. Another time she punched a guy and chased him around - he was noble enough not to hit back, so he basically just had to run in circles. It was funny for bystanders at the time, but in hindsight it wasn't cool at all.

What does this have to do with the AirTran stories?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
This girl was a menace, but because of her special needs she was immune to punishment.

I don't think her parents' right to state-funded babysitting services outweighed the students' rights to a safe and sane learning environment, but that's just me.

Show me the law that requires that type of accommodation and immunity to punishment. Your example speaks to yet another entirely different issue.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
In the same vein, air travelers' right to a safe and sane commute outweigh little what's-her-name's right to throw a tantrum when and where she chooses. If her parents had simply restrained her, physically, none of this would have happened.

If you’ll recall, they asked to hold her and were denied the option due to regulation.

The couple had purchased a seat for Elly because FAA rules require all children over the age of two to sit in their own seat and wear a seatbelt for takeoff and landing. Julie Kulesza asked the cabin crew if she could sit Elly on her lap, but the flight attendants said no.

So, in other words, absent the regulation, you’d be fine with Mrs. Kulesza’s request.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I just think people are tired of uncontrolled children. Ever been on an airplane or a bus where there's a kid running around totally free, parents sleeping or staring out the window while their child rampages around unchecked?

It's far beyond annoying...

I agree. But then again you are discussing an entirely different topic. Why can’t you see that?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
My appraisal of their failure in this situation is not a judgement of them as parents. I don't think one situation is going to make or break the chances of the kid growing up to be a productive and respectful member of society.

But, I do see their inability to control their child on the plane as a failure on their part, in this one situation, at the least. Doesn't mean they're bad parents, but it does mean they've failed to excercise good judgement in this situation. My guess is that it's not the first time, and probably won't be the last. We all fail from time to time, but that's no reason to be content with it.

Who said anything about being content? Of course these situations are difficult and annoying. But do you really believe you are entitled to an annoyance free existence?

Moreover, what I object to is the intensity of the language and the broad brush used to denounce all parents and children in similar situations as pariahs of society.

We are talking about annoyance here…not threats of bodily harm.

People need to get a better sense of scale. Sheesh… :shk:

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
They could learn from this fiasco. Sounds to me like they don't have any interest in doing that though, they would rather get indignant and shift the blame for their child's behavior elsewhere.

Your opinion.

Here’s mine:

These parents will fear for their safety.

This child will learn she has the power to “mobilize the universe", if necessary.

The relationships in this family will suffer because of the experience.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I really think that people are reacting strongly because they see a shift in the standards of parenting, and in the behavior of children in general. This one situation is a catalyst for people to vent some anger about the general state of the country.

I’d prefer people put away the pitchforks and discuss those issues more rationally then. Why convert this story into something it may not be? Does anyone really think these parents wanted this outcome?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

What would you suggest in flight?

Well, they hadn't taken off yet, so that's not an issue. If the plane had taken off, and the kid went haywire, I would suggest holding onto them, phsyically restraining them until they calmed down or the plane landed, whichever came first.

Well, at least you wouldn’t kick them of the plane.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
You don't just let a 3 year old child run amok on an airplane, no matter what the internet parenting guides say.

Which internet parenting guide said this?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
…we're talking about one situation - small child freaking out on an airplane full of passengers. Restrain the kid to prevent them from harming themselves or anyone else.

If nothing else, holding onto the kid will reassure them and hopefully calm them down.

It's not like I'm advocating a headlock here, I'm talking about a hug.

I think I’ve already established that they made that precise request and were not permitted to do so.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The crying isn't the issue, it's the climbing, running, crawling and hitting that pose a serious problem. Like I said before, we've all dealt with crying children. It sucks, but it's manageable.

Until now, your position wasn’t clear on that.

In case you haven’t noticed, many others hold a more extreme view.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

That’s part the airline’s version and part your assumptions. Where does it say they were responsible for the full 15 minute delay? The parents also have a different view.

That's according to the airline, and it hasn't been disputed by the parents, to my knowledge.

That depends on the specific account you read of the story.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne

Moreover, I notice that you are quick to disclose some facts, but make no comment on the airline’s subsequent decision to ban the family for 24 hours as a safety risk.

Well, that seems silly to me, but it's neither here nor there. I don't see a problem with letting them on the next flight if the kid is under control.

It speaks to the airline’s judgment. If it was poor in the one example, then what makes you so certain it wasn’t in the other?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Whether it's three year olds or thirteen year olds, kids are freakin' nuts in this country, and the parents want to blame everyone but themselves.

Three year olds are freakin’ nuts?

Man, that view is hopeless.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by loam]

Originally posted by marg6043
So what people wants to do with such troublesome littler human beings?

Lets put them on Ritalin or prozac and have a happy, happy time...

Exactly.

Originally posted by marg6043
Our society is going on the wrong way when it comes with making each other too comfortable.

I'm beginning to think you are quite right.

Originally posted by marg6043
Loam love you too.!!!!!!!!

I'm on cloud 9, marg6043.

Originally posted by loam

In most public places, I agree. It’s the courteous thing to do.

But where mass transportation is involved, does this really make sense? As a matter of public policy, do we really want to encourage a no tolerance policy for the normal crying behavior of very young children?

As it was described this is not normal crying behavior of a 3 year old ... it is an out of control 3 year old. If the childs behavior is unmanageable to the point that he cant be contained in a seat between mom and dad and is under seats, wandering around, throwing a fit and hitting his parents this is a little beyond what passengers and flight staff should be expected to live with. I wouldn't expect people in the grocery store to be subject to that sort of outburst let alone someone in a cramped quarters for 5 hours or more.

Crying is to be expected during flying from small children ... it's loud and the altitude change can affect their tummies and mainly their eardrums popping bother them. They're confined to a small space, which I myself hate and definitely toddlers hate. But crying, running around and not being able to be contained by 2 parents is a little different than just a little fussiness. I would be worried about safety on takeoff/landing and during flight if these parents couldn't corral their child during 15 minutes.

My son is 5 ... he has flown a handful of times ... during his terrible two's and when he was 3. It was almost constant work to keep him occupied in his seat for a 5 hour flight ... but he never wandered down the aisle or climbed under the seat. But some days it seems that parenting is basically constant work. Maybe we're just lucky that he loves to fly ... but he also knew how to behave in public at the age of 3 ... as much as you can expect a 3 year old to behave

If we had been kicked off a plane because he was out of control (as described in the article) I would be more embarrased than outraged at the airlines. I would never expect a airplane full of passengers to put up with that sort of behaviour. I agree the 24 hour ban was a bit much ... the little tyke probably just needed a few hours to wind down or take a nap in the airport and catch another flight out. But then I think the airlines offer of a free travel voucher wasn't neccessary either ... it wasn't the airlines fault the kid was out of control.

posted by loam:

Why was the child even upset in the first place?

Why do you, or anyone, even assume this is about poor discipline? Poor planning?

Maybe she hurt herself in some real and unrecognized manner….pinched a finger…twisted a leg…

What's with all the "what ifs"?

The airline was in the right. A child was misbehaving to a point that it delayed a flight by 15 minutes.

We have to think of the other passengers, what's more important, making sure that the other 200 passengers make it on time and maybe catch their transfers...or should the airline have said screw you guys and your connection flights...this family is returning from vacation...so you all just have to wait.

There's nothing more annoying than a screaming toddler on an airplane.

carslake...

thankyou for re-reading my post and I accept your apology.

I know it is very hard when little children 'chuck wobblies' and frustrate the hell out of the parents and those in the immediate vicinity who are a captive audience. And we know how most children love a captive audience.

I know lots of little people that are well behaved and might whine a little but would never dare do the full tantrum scenario because their parents have clearly defined ground rules with consequences like no tv, no park visits, no food treats and taking away certain toys.

It is not hard to set the rules and maintain consistency in regard to disciplining children...granted you get sick of your own voice a lot
but they soon get to know that bad behaviour does not get rewarded, they actually realise they will lose something temporarily. Some people may say that is cruel...Methinks not as cruel as beating, slapping and punching other sick, depraved behaviour.

I used this method on my own children as I did not want to physically abuse them like I had been as a child. I think their are lots of us who were victims of parents who could not control their anger and have strived to be better parents and create a more loving, respectful relationship with our children.

I feel sorry for the slack, lazy ignorant parents who have no clue and they need to be told


peace to you

As the parent of a real wing-nut (now 18) i can tell you I got used to having to drag the kid from restaurants, shopping malls and stores...at no point would I ever make anyone listen to it...eventually after several sessions of being dragged out and taken back home and not allowed to partake of funstuff, the kid figured it out. By the time she was 2 and a half I could take her on a 22 hour greyhound ride and she was the best behaved passenger you've ever seen. Restaraunts...she minds her Ps & Qs or she knows she'll be taken out of the situation. On the plane when she was older...not a peep. Even on city buses she was good after being made to walk after throwing a temper on the bus.

Yeah it made life miserable for a bit and I had to pay for a few meals I didn't get to eat - but I'll be damned if I wanna listen to someone elses miserable kiddo so why would they want to listen to mine?

Kids can share in a great many things with their parents, like flying and eating out...but the parents have to lay down the rules and enforce them. Otherwise leave the kiddos at home...

No parent is perfect but I am sure that had the parents been on the ball and offered to miss the flight to sort out their kid...the airline would have been most grateful and issued refunds on the tickets for a later flight....

Too many parents try to skirt the issue of responsibility by blaming the kid. It's just a kid...still in the learning stage...it's the parents who were wrong.

Good for the airline for sticking to their guns. The parents should be embarrassed for THEIR lack of parenting skills. Kids need boundaries and rules. They love to push and see what they can get away with...sadly the parents wind up being punished too but hey...that's the joy of kids.

Originally posted by marg6043
Our society is going on the wrong way when it comes with making each other too comfortable.

I'm beginning to think you are quite right.




Loam, I have been following this thread since inception the other day, and will offer this comment as an observation as to why there is such outward hostility towards this family. I am a married parent for over 30 years. My children are well adjusted, with good jobs, and stable relationships. They were never abused or mistreated in any way. BUT ---------> and I mean this in the most respectful tone possible--------> Parenting is NOT, I repeat, NOT a DEMOCRACY! My spouse and I worked together, and share the same belief structures. 3 year olds cannot be reasoned with (the majority of the time), they can only be shown. Negotiation is useless in most combative moments. The parents MUST have the final say, and have the capability to bring order to the moment. Laws in North America have removed most of those rights from the parents to use any worthwhile disciplinary measures (including a spanking), and unfortunatley society is getting what the vocal few have asked for. I believe that people in general are just tired of the loss of their abilities to act. Sorry Loam, on this one I think you are way off base, as much as I admire your stand.

What's the big deal?

It's not like she was praying or anything scary like that.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
What's the big deal?

It's not like she was praying or anything scary like that.

That is funny! You actually had me laughing out loud.

For the others:

I do not do exercises in futility well. If you can't bother to read what I have written, then so be it.

My positions on child rearing have been made clear enough.


[edit on 27-1-2007 by loam]

Children should never dictate how adults live. The airline acted properly by considering the needs of the majority.

Bravo Airtran.

Originally posted by marg6043...Children get cranky, they cry, scream and get into tantrums...

I recommend the cargo hold. The overhead bin will do if the kid is a carry-on.

Well I guess your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If the parents don't discipline the child they get dirty looks and complaints, if they do wack the child on the A$$ a couple of times they get put in jail for child abuse or maybe get their child taken away from them.

I society is freakin mess with people meddling in others lives. Personally, I think that they should have taken the child in the restroom and paddle their little behind so no one could see what was happening.

I know how kids are because I have them too, but sometimes a good wack on the a$$ does wonders.