If No ATS Meeting Place... an Intel NET Maybe?

When I saw the thread pop-up regarding a potential real-world meeting place for ATS'ers following some Sit-X scenario I realized that it would be highly unrealistic --- even assuming that any amount of travel were possible following Sit-X.

Still, many of us find ATS in general a very valuable information center. Sure, we have our share of chuckle-heads and mad-maxx-wannabes but there is a core of very good people here that have an understanding of what will be important in that post Sit-X environment.

Surviving Sit-X is going to require a great deal of tactical planning and decision making --- at exactly the time when the availability of information outside our immediate neighborhoods is going to likely be scarce and/or highly controlled/centralized. Good planning and decision making require good information. Otherwise it's a crap-shoot. It's going to be difficult or likely impossible to get man-on-the-street observations.

My question for this thread is: Are there enough communications savvy and equipped ATS'ers here to establish a post Sit-X communications NET? It would, of course, require a number of people appropriately equipped and geographically diverse. We'd need to set up schedules, a multi-band plan and traffic protocols. This wouldn't be a 'rag chew' as many if not most would be operating on alternative power.

Is this do-able?

Ime thinking Ham would be probly the best way. Orangetom is the best to ask about that. All I have is reguler CB radios and a 10 meter not real ggod for long distance inless you can hit the right repeater. but like I said ime not a ham expert. If there was internet Email would be good. Otherwise I dont know how else we would do it. Its a great idea if we can figure out how to get it to work.

You volunteer for a "flight" team.
A flight team leader is chosen, via ATS.
You are U2U'd, and told the specifics of your team, based on your location.
You can, if you wish, follow the latest "hook-up" choices of your flight team.
Or, you can decline and head out on your own.
But now you have an option to meet up with fellow,like-minded ATSers, or
not. ( Flight=Flee )
Maybe somewhere in your area you'll meet. At that time an assessment
will be made, to determine what avenues of communication still work and
what doesn't. If you're lucky, the people that show up will have the strong
character shown here on ATS. They will be more of an asset to you than
the ordinary, un-prepared, uninformed Joe Survivor. And you in turn will
be an asset to them. Together, you are better. And so it begins. SIT-X!

See, this is my point. Everyone is predicating this on either being able to physically move from place-to-place or the even less likely possibility that the internet will be 'up'. You have to assume the internet and/or electrical utilities are down. Hence my suggestion for a radio net. Yes, Angry I'm thinking HAM as that is our only viable option (ample equipment available). There must be enough of us out there that have or are willing to get HAM equipment to establish a NET. BTW, there are 10m repeaters out there??

Yes, I think that it is safe to assume that "moving" is necessary. Will be
necessary. Staying around in a disaster area any longer than you have to
is foolish and dangerous. There's looting, there's intimidation, there's
trouble. Having a plan to move to help or safety seems logical.
And I doubt seriously if the internet will help, as it will probably be down
in the "zone".
As far as radios are concerned, wouldn't it be nice to know that someone
on your "flight" team has knowledge of same, or access to it?

As a ham radio operator I am seldom without information for long
an example of this is during katrina we were taking messages from other hams
in the New Orleans area I am close to St. Louis so we were passing these messages
onto the coast guard locally so they could notify there command center in new orleans
we were passing along addresses cross streets and the numbers of people needing to be rescued and I feel to a great extent we were successful.

If any one is interested in this you can go to
www.arrl.com

This is the national Association for amateur radio
they can hook you up with all the info you need to become a ham or at the very least become informed about where to listen for info on the amateur frequncies.

I have radios for HF and VHF which you will find most of your info on.

At the very least you should consider the GMRS or family radio service radios
a weather radio (in times of emergency they broadcast info other than weather)
I hand held CB would be a great investment it is portable runs on AA's and many people have them, they are usually only good for local talk 10-20 miles usually even less but something is better than nothing.

Oh and just to clear up and confusion on the repeater thing there are repeaters in most cities for 10M 2M and 440 in some there are repeaters at 222Mhz 902 MHZ and even 1.2 GHZ and if they are down there are always the amateur radio satellites to talk throug. also digital and packet networks for ham radio all over the world
most of us hams have grid independent setups just for these emergencies.

Thanks
Geocom

[edit on 1/23/2007 by geocom]

[edit on 1/23/2007 by geocom]

That's pretty much what I had in mind when I started the thread geocom. I'm also a HAM, am set-up for HF, VHF and UHF. What I hoped was that there would be enough ATSers similarly equipped or at least interested in becoming so that we could establish a 'disaster net' in the event of Sit-X.

geocom near STL? I'm in KCMO. Something to note should this idea of networking progress.

HAM has definitely been an interest of mine. All I have is CB though. I'll have to dig through that website. Thanks.

As I posted in another related thread, the FCC just recently eliminated the Morse Code requirement. This has almost always been the greatest impediment to people getting into radio (most especially on the HF or 'long-distance' frequencies). A little book study, a multiple choice exam and you get your license.

jtma508 on your begining post here. I agree..You would need some kind of band plan. Frequencys/ times for which to meet.

Concerning times to meet you would of course have to be aware of the diffrent time zones of the various operators.

Members on this thread are so spread out across country and some even in other countrys that it would be impossible to get all together.

A band plan would be best. Those who have shortwave sets could monitor the frequencys if reception is possible.

I keep a Radio Shack DX 398 around and sometimes turn it on in the kitchen with the telescoping antenna and monitor the 75 meter band in the evenings and this one has SSB functions on it. I also own two of the Grundig FR200 wind up type radios with short wave on them too in addition to the AM/FM bands.

Most people not familiar with this kind of communications do not know that for long range effeciency many use Single Side Band(SSB) transmissions necessating a different kind of receiver/transmitter.

How many would know CW or Continuous Wave...what we call Morse Code.

In transmitters most people would have access to some kind of CB radio...or only a FRS/GMRS type rig. THese would work out locally for family transmissions and security within a quarter to a half mile or so of the group. Those of you dependent on this mode need to have members trained and familiar with what frequency or channel you would meet on to find and connect with the others.

Never the less a band plan with what frequencys to monitor or meet upon would be in order...even for those only using CB radios. Those with CB rigs and not to far from each other would benifit by planning what frequencys to meet on in case of emergencys. For example you would want to have this on say ...a 3x5 card and coated in plastic...mounted or taped to your radio.
With a amateurs you would want this plastic card in your mobile with all the frequencys or on your base station or in your log book. Also if possible programmed in your rig for fingertip usage.

My rig for my truck is a Yaesu FT 100 D. I have three antennas on my truck for 70 and 40 meters. Another for the 30 through 10 meter band. The last is a dual band magnetic mount for 2 meters and 75cm.

Base Station use is a Yaesu FT890 to a 300 foot long wire delta loop. it is nothing but those 75 foot lengths of Radio Shack copper wire soldered end to end to make up about 300 feet and I have laid it up in the tops of the trees in my yard. It was fished up there with a fishing pole and then drawn into place with the reel. It is up about 80 feet at the highest point.
It is my habit to have about four lengths of this 75 foot wire on hand all the time...stowed in my garage.

I have a Ameritron 811H amplifier but I seldome need to run it over 200 watts. What I want to get eventually for my truck is a 500 watt mobile amp....though once again I dont think I need to run that much but can crank it back to around 250 to 300 watts. This has not been a high priority to date but eventually it is on the "I want someday list."

For those who work the long range bands you want to have a pre arranged set of meeting frequencys on selected bands. In otherwords a band plan.
This is the advantage of Ham radio in emergencys. It is not dependent on phone lines. Hams can go portable and set up emergency equipment in field conditions. These emergency scenerios are often a standard exercise with many hams...batteries with solar chargers ...etc...generated power ..emergency antenna set ups.

If you notice the news reports carefully about and around emergencys you will often hear how it is the hams across the country which are covering certain communications for the brief time it takes to get the phone and computer systems and also the electricity systems back up and operating. They often fill the gap when everything else has gone down.

Just my thoughts on the topic.

By the way..4 land here ..Chesapeake Bay, Virginia.

Thanks to all for their posts.
Orangetom

I'm in New England. FT-897D base rig (modified for expanded xmit freqs), VR-5000 RX, PK-900 TNC. I'm also using a wire antenna for HF (a mystery ant) and a discone for VHF/UHF. I also have 3 VX-5's (exp TX mod), 6 MX-340's, 2 MX-350's (enough to equip my neighborhood for security/patrol work) as well as 2 PRC77's.

In addition to a 5.5kW generator I have a custom built hand-crank re-charging system for all radios. Besides the two internal bats in the 897D I have a portable 20AH battery pack.

I suppose in a pinch I could get by with morse (CW) but I'm not proficient in any sense of the word. Given the dearth of people (especially non-HAMS) that are morse-conversant, t would seem essential to establish an SSB net. Orangetom, your suggestion that people with RX-only could benefit is right on-target. Even ATSers that are not equipped could benefit by simply locating a nearby HAM. If our NET was established they'd only need to find a HAM and provide that information to receive information.

In the event of a serious Sit-X, getting fresh information will be very difficult. Imagine being suddenly cut-off from family. How would you check on them or coordinate redezvous (assuming that possible)? HAM emergency nets are capable of moving traffic over great distances when normal means are interrupted. As orangetom points out, during hurricanens and other disasters HAM is how communication continues. We have the capability of establishing a net to provide one another vital survival info in the unlikely Sit-X event.

So here is a question. I have a converted HR2510 10M I never really used it before it broke except to moniter the local CB bands. Is 10M good for distance or is that only good for near. What is the best radio for distance. From my understanding about 10M it is mainly for repeaters. Reapeters run on electricty. In an emergency ware the power grid goes down no reapeater. Is my 10M then of no use for distant use? Or have I got this all wrong. Ime mainly interested in State to state commincation. but over sea's would be awsome.

One more question If I set up a web site on my server for the ATS emergency cominucation team would any of you use it?

Originally posted by angryamerican
So here is a question. I have a converted HR2510 10M I never really used it before it broke except to moniter the local CB bands. Is 10M good for distance or is that only good for near. What is the best radio for distance. From my understanding about 10M it is mainly for repeaters. Reapeters run on electricty. In an emergency ware the power grid goes down no reapeater. Is my 10M then of no use for distant use? Or have I got this all wrong. I'm mainly interested in State to state commincation. but over sea's would be awsome.

One more question If I set up a web site on my server for the ATS emergency cominucation team would any of you use it?

Good question you have here.

10meters locally is not really very good. 11meters or CB is actually more condusive to local trafficking. What 10 meters does when the band is open or the skip is running ( as they say on CB)so to speak is reach out long distances. When the skip is not running CB is to me much better than 10 meters..for local traffic. What 10 meters offers to those who know how to utilize it is alot of frequency spread..verses CB.
Your talking about CB at 26.965MHZ at channel 1 to 27.405 MHZ Verses 28.000MHZ to 29.700MHZ. That is quite a spread of frequencys.
The key is knowing how the band can react when it is open. Sometimes this is called DXing.
I am not authorizing you to bootleg or pirate operate on 10 meters..but in a Situation X you are going to take whatever you can get to make contact outside your area of operations..AO..and get help.

By the way...going radio station to radio station ..one to one is called "simplexing"
Going through a repeater then on to the person or station you are contacting is called "duplexing."
Just a bit of information for when you decide to monitor certain conversations on the amateur bands. When you unkey from certain repeaters you can hear it make a tone to indicate the repeater has stopped retransmitting...or dropped off.

For long distances in the day time many like the 20 meter band which begins at 14.000 MHZ to 14.350 MHZ. It is often to crowded for my liking and I often prefer the 17meter band or what is 18.068MHZ to 18.168MHZ. Not as crowded here though the frequency spread is much smaller than on 20 meters.
Night time I like 40 and 75 meters...where the wavelengths are long. When I am able to make the schedule I like to catch up with some olde timers who moved from here on the Chesapeake Bay of Virginia to upstate New York for thier retirement in the Fingerlakes area. VEry easy for me with this 300 foot wire antenna to make this connection with about 100 watts. IN heavy traffic times I amplify it up to 200 watts.

Im going to offer you a suggestion Angry American and it was done to me by Elmers or older hams back when I was still in the CB bands only. THey showed and taught me how to fabricate antennas cheaply and pretty easily. Basic antennas ..nothing fancy but portable. Mind you now ..the ones I made were basically dipoles for the CB bands but they worked and I still use one when I catch the friends I know on these same CB bands. I am grateful to these olde Elmers for helping me in this manner. In process of time I went on to get my license or ticket as it is sometimes called.
My poinit here is to encourage you to learn..to teach yourself how to build a emergency antenna with basic skills. A roll of that Radio Shack Copper wire at 14 gage will do and some wood for insulaters. I did it with a simple SWR Meter. Hams have more sophisticated tools to accomplish this but you can still do it with the basics of a inexpensive SWR meter. The idea here is to be as self sufficient as possible. Trimming or adjusting an antenna takes time and patience. Lots of patience Grasshopper.
As much as possible self sufficiency is the key here. It is so in many of the threads here on the Survival Forum....self sufficiency. Amazing to me what some of the posters come up with.

My homemade 11 meter dipole is made from olde Moonraker parts. My 2 meter J-pole antenna is made from copper pipe on my base station. On my emergency 2 meter antenna it is some coaxial cable connected to some of that 300 ohm olde flat wire TV or FM antenna wire like they used to use so much before cable television.
I will have to post what it looks like in a photo..when you see it you will laugh your behind off at how simple some of this stuff is. I am not saying anything new to the other Hams on here but if you have never seen one you will laugh your head off. First time I saw one surely I did until I heard for myself how effeciently it would operate for as little as it was. Especially if you can get some altitude on them when you hoist them up. But this is true of any antenna...altitude if you can get it.

I am planning to acquire the parts to try one of those Firepistons. I am very curious about this gadget for starting a fire. You can fabricate lots of things if you work on it...and think it through.

I gotta shove off now ..thanks to all for thier posts here.

Orangetom

[edit on 25-1-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 25-1-2007 by orangetom1999]

Here is the photograph of the emergency antenna I promised you .

This thing looks rediculous for as littel as it actually is and I must admit even as a Ham when I first saw one I laughed my head off until I found out how effeciently it can work for as little as it is.

The antenna is actually the dark brown flat wire on the end of the coaxial cable. The cable came from a yard sale as did the flat wire. The connectors I had in some olde boxes in my garage. The polyester string is 1/8 diameter from Home depot.

The fishing pole is a olde piece of bamboo pole with two hose clamps and a cheap yard sale reel. The eye on the end hand mounted from an olde broken down fishing pole. I use it to throw up over a tree limb and reel up the polyester rope attached to the red wire sticking through a hold drilled in the end of the dark brown flat wire.

I have another set up similar to this used on my 2 meter set in my garage except that I have mounted the whole flat wire portion of the antenna in a 1/2inch PVC pipe with the end capped off ..the red wire sticking through a hole drilled in the end and sealed up with RTV silicone. This PVC just keeps the whole rig more waterproof.

My base station in the house is a copper pipe J-pole soldered together and tuned for a match.

Here is the photo...enjoy.

Thanks,
Orangetom


external image


Mod Edit: Convert large image to link.

[edit on 21-4-2007 by UM_Gazz]

The H/T type radios in the amateur radio world are what are called Handi talkies..or walkie talkies.

I have one in my garage with the battery removed and hooked up to a car battery which is also hooked up to a battery charger.

THe antenna hooked up to it is the antenna I pictured in my last post but is the one mounted inside of a PVC pipe.

Unfortunately this antenna was damaged by the recent and very windy storms which passed through this area. Fortunatelly they did not bring the ice and snow as was done further south and to the west. I will be adding these repairs to my list of things to be done. This little nothing of an antenna works amazingly well for as little as it actually is both physically and monetarily. I hope to get the next replacement up higher in the trees to some 35 or 40 feet up with my fishing pole also pictured.

I have just today ordered myself two of these walkie talkies in 2 meters and 70 cm. THese are what is called a dual bander. This is also sometimes called the 144/440 MHZ bands. THese walkie talkies also have a pretty wide receiver range. I have been putting this purchase off for some years now ,having other prioritys, but decided just today ..no more procrastination.
I intend to change the antennas to something more effecient in walkie talkie designs as most antennas for these units tend to be pretty generic when coming from the factory. Better antennas of the rubber ducky type are availalbe through catalogues/on line or at the varioius hamfests. I also intend to get longer lasting batterys for them than is factory issue.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 21-4-2007 by orangetom1999]

Great thread. Many of us are begining to see this as the only future option for info junkie's. Could you tell me please what the basic cost of getting set up would be including the test? If it is not feasible, the suggestion about seeking out Ham's in your local area and connecting now is sound advice. Good ideas and important suggestions. One more thing, it would be good if you have both CB and HAM, because getting long range info you could ideally send info to those closer with only CB. Also what channel do you suggest to check on and don't they have the ability to block even HAM waves?And what might identify an operator associated with ATS after Sit-x was it? I would feel good to know some of you here if it does come down to worst case scenario. Sorry this is so long.

Originally posted by antar
Great thread. Many of us are begining to see this as the only future option for info junkie's. Could you tell me please what the basic cost of getting set up would be including the test? If it is not feasible, the suggestion about seeking out Ham's in your local area and connecting now is sound advice. Good ideas and important suggestions. One more thing, it would be good if you have both CB and HAM, because getting long range info you could ideally send info to those closer with only CB. Also what channel do you suggest to check on and don't they have the ability to block even HAM waves?And what might identify an operator associated with ATS after Sit-x was it? I would feel good to know some of you here if it does come down to worst case scenario. Sorry this is so long.

YOu are correct here in the idea of using or having both CB and Ham Radio. Three of my radios will work on both ham and CB bands. They were purchased with this in mind. I also have pure CB radios but dont use them much anymore. Most of the radios you see sold on sites which are billed as 10 meter Amateur radios can also be modified by knowlegable individuals to function on the CB bands. I had two of these types of radios before I even got my license.

Any radio signal can be blocked. Morse code is a bit more difficult to block than voice transmissions but it too can be blocked by the right equipment.
One of the greatest aids I have found in getting by deliberate blocking is an antenna in which the polarity can be changed from vertical to horizontal and back again as desired by the skills of the user. Combined with single sideband or morse code transmissions and good filtration you can get by. There is another more skillful method of transmission and it involved transmitting on one frequency and receiving on another. THe other partys recieves on one and then transmits back on the other ..just the opposite of the first party. IT takes some skill with most radios but it can be done. Newer radios have this feature electronically built in by automatic switching. It is called split frequency. On CB...we would often use channel 1 and then channel 40..just switching back and forth ...transmit and receive ..the other party just the opposite. This is often how we got through on heavy traffic days.

As to identifying other ATS members this is something you could verify on the air. Or you can work out a system. Nationwide there are actually not many of us and most certainly not many of us involved mostly in the survival thread. Compare this to how many people just like to use chat rooms nation wide. In a survival situation you would be primarily intrested in reliable informations. In come cases ..just in listening.

No your post is not long and your questions and concerns not unreasonable or unfounded.

As to costs..this is up to you to determine how much you are willing to spend. You can go anywhere from inexpensive to very espensive.

Try this on the web..for radios and antennas...just to get an idea..mind you now this is new equipment not used...for used check E-bay and such.

Ham Radio Outlet.
Amateur Electronic Supply.
MFJ Enterprises.

I use these but I am not specificially promoting these merchandizers. I merely offer this as information. It is up to you to make up your mind..to educate yourself.
This started out as a hobby ..entertainment to me..but I realized over the years that it could entail much more. I am grateful to the older Hams for giving me guidance over the years. The name for the person to whom one attaches ones self for guidance and encouragement is an "Elmer." It helps to have good Elmers.

Listening to Coast to Coast Radio as I type this. I am not particularly a fan of Art Bell but I know he is also a Licensed Ham.

Keep up the good work and thinking...
Thanks,
Orangetom

Thanks orange tom I will keep this in mind and at least take a look at what I would need and the cost. I will get back to you at another point. I am concerned that I am not particularly intelligent, just very intuitive. Could I pass the test? I did make a 4.0 average in the 2 years of college I played with, but I think that was just because I took subjects that I could relate to. I have lived a rough lifetime since then. and just don't have a whole lot of confidence. I have heard Art bell talking about it before and he makes it seem very elite and very difficult to obtain and not cheap.

Originally posted by antar
Thanks orange tom I will keep this in mind and at least take a look at what I would need and the cost. I will get back to you at another point. I am concerned that I am not particularly intelligent, just very intuitive. Could I pass the test? I did make a 4.0 average in the 2 years of college I played with, but I think that was just because I took subjects that I could relate to. I have lived a rough lifetime since then. and just don't have a whole lot of confidence. I have heard Art bell talking about it before and he makes it seem very elite and very difficult to obtain and not cheap.

Antar,

Dont let anyone BS you. I know ham radio people who think they are so much better than CB people. I could debate this easily with them. I dont like this kind of class division. Where do you think alot of Hams have come from ..the CB bands. It doesnt make good nonsense to look down ones nose at someone else on CB and then expect them to make the jump to ham because it is "elitist." See what I mean??

It is not difficult ..especially now that they have removed the requirement at all for having any morse code skills. Just a written test.
It is just like any other written test...know the material. You only have to pass the various grades once to get that grade of license. You can fail as many times as you want. I failed my General Class first time around. Went back later that day and retook it and passed.

Dont let anyone pull your leg here. If you can pass college you can pass this too. I dropped out of college.
Confidence is something you work at. I had to work on confidence alot. I taught myself to put a ship in a bottle. I messed it up several times before I got it even close to right but I didnt quit. Your horse throws you ...you get back on it. You may have to catch your breath but you get back on it.
I spent over a year figuring out electronically what was wrong with the engine on my truck ..but I figured it out ..I didnt let the horse throw me and get away with it. I got back on ...Understand??

I too like subjects to which I am intrested..but often have to deal with things I dont like. You learn here too..you also learn about yourself here.
These are just facts of life.

Good luck and dont let the horse throw you and not get back on. You ride the horse..you dont let the horse ride/throw you!!

Thanks,
Orangetom.

I have just today ordered myself two of these walkie talkies in 2 meters and 70 cm. THese are what is called a dual bander. This is also sometimes called the 144/440 MHZ bands. THese walkie talkies also have a pretty wide receiver range. I have been putting this purchase off for some years now ,having other prioritys, but decided just today ..no more procrastination.

My two Icom dual band walkie talkies came in the mail today. I have been charging up the batterys and going over the instruction manuals. It has been awhile since I have used a HT type radio so the programming of the frequencys and other features will take some time with which to be accustomed.

I dont like the ni cad type batterys which came with them and will be looking for after market batterys of a different type and also for another more effecient dual band antenna than the one furnished. Homework will have to be done here before purchasing. I will be consulting other hams on different sites on line or via the airwaves.

These two Walkie Talkies are Icom Brand IC-T7H models. I have never used Icom brand equipment. Mostly I have stuck with Yaesu gear and some radio shack HTs which I still have.

Status repor to follow some days hence.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 25-4-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 25-4-2007 by orangetom1999]