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Russia threatened by US missile installations in Europe

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posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 09:14 PM
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It seems that US is all too eager to start utilizing their new NATO partners in Eatern Europe, specifically Czech Republic and Poland. Not a few years passed since these countries became America's allies, and US already has grand plans for them- plans that could potentially destabilize Europe and start a new arms race.

US is considering placing ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) Defense systems in the Eastern European countries. While these systems are theoretically designed for defensive purposes, such close proximity to Russia (with its' still vast nuclear arsenal) is seen as a credible threat. Not only would the operating radius of these missiles reach deep within Russian airspace, there is also a possibility the missiles could alternatively be used as offensive weaponry. But with the Cold War over, and terrorism and the "Axis of Evil" being America's and NATO's main focus, what really is the purpose for these missiles in Europe?

As the US alleges, it has nothing to do with Russia.

Missile shield 'threatens Russia'


Washington says it needs interceptor missiles in Europe to stop attacks by states like Iran or North Korea.

It hopes to build a radar station in the Czech Republic and to site interceptors in Poland.

Poland's Deputy Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski confirmed that Washington has approached Warsaw over the project and said: "We are now waiting for firm proposals."



The arguement US presents is that the ABM system is to be placed in Europe with the sole purpose of security against Iran's nuclear weapons program. However as the following source notes, the actual reason for the placement is completely different.

Who can Europe-based missiles threaten?


Officially, the missiles have been positioned there to thwart a threat of Iran's missile strike against Europe and the U.S. In addition, the U.S. intends to deploy 10 long-range interceptor missiles in Eastern Europe, close to the Polish-Belarusian border, to protect against Iran. But this excuse is beneath criticism. The Iranian Shakhab-3 missiles with a range of 3,500 km can only reach Europe, but not the U.S. The shortest flight path from Iran to Europe lies through the Caucasus, the Black Sea, and Ukraine rather than Russia.



In an article published the other day by the Polish newspaper Dziennik, Yury Baluyevsky, Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, explained: "We are convinced that implementation of the U.S. plans may lead to the deployment of (missile) systems close to the Russian borders. These systems are capable of upsetting the existing balance between the Russian and American strategic delivery vehicles."



Moreover, Europe-based military installations may be used for other purposes. If need be, NATO could install attack missiles in silos after minor adjustments. Neither Russia, nor its CSTO (Collective Security Treaty Organization) allies, Belarus in particular, can ignore these plans.




Now I am not a military expert, and perhaps many people on here know more about ABM systems than me. But the strategic placement of the missiles and the overall actions of the US seem rather threatening for Russia, and somewhat peculiar given current circumstances in the War on Terrorism and Iran.


Why place the missiles in northern Poland of all places in Europe? As the later article notes, Iranian missiles cannot reach the US. Thus the excuse that the missiles are there to prevent direct attacks on US doesn't hold ground.

So the sole purpose of the ABM system would then be to protect Europe from Iran. But again the location for the missiles is puzzling. Why not place them in Turkey and/or Greece, which are long-term NATO members, and lie directly between Western Europe and Iran? Poland is way off if you consider both: an attack against Western Europe, and an attack against mainland US (which wouldn't even be possible untill Iran develops an ICBM capable of reaching the US).



To me it seems that there are deeper implications of this than the War On Terrorism and Iran. US is simply using Iran's nuclear threat as an exuse to position potentially offensive weapons- it is suggested that offense missile installations would soon follow defensive ones- in close proximity to Russia. This could severely destabilize the nuclear power balance between Russia and the US.

Now I see why most Americans wouldn't mind the placement of the missiles. But think about how Russia would be forced to respond. Would it seek new ballistic missile technologies to offset the defensive capabilities of the ABM? Would it again lead to a missile crisis, with Russia potentially seeking to place similar missiles in close proximity to the US (think Venezuela)?

What is the US really trying to achieve here? Does it seek a new Cold War, or is it simply reckless in thinking that no one else in the world is capable to countering it?


Another arguement is what are the implications for Poland and Czech Republic. Some local politicians are afraid that ABM missiles will lead to increased US presence on their homeland, and the subsequent offensive arms placement to complement the defensive ones.

I am afraid this could in turn push Russia to finally make the deal with Syria (which is currently on hold) about comissioning a new Russian navy base in the Syrian port of Tartus. Not only will Russia gain the foothold it needs in the Middle East, but the deal would entitle Syria to receive the new S-300 PMU2 anti-aircraft missile systems. These systems have a very long attack radius, and could be positioned in Syria to monitor the skies over Iraq and Israel, severely destabilizing the situation in the Middle East. So far the plans are on hold, but if US makes the first move Russia could be forced to make its' move.

Russian Base in Syria, a Symmetrical Strategic Move

[edit on 22-1-2007 by maloy]

[edit on 22-1-2007 by maloy]




posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 10:48 PM
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It isn't and for a long time has not been a case of nation against nation, but rather it's a case of 'them' against collective humanity.

It could be likened to several schools and colleges, each with its loyal students, budgets, teachers, Principals and Vice Principals, etc.

Each school has its own motto and flag, grounds, buildings, benefactors, history, etc. (similar to individual nations).

The teachers in each school come and go (similar to politicians). Of these, some are admired or liked or despised or feared.

Each school has its headmaster/headmistress/principal (similar to Presidents, Prime Ministers, etc) and also has a Vice Principal.

Each school has its strengths and weaknessess, resources, etc., just like individual nations.

From the students' perspective, their school is distinct and separate from others (as nations are considered to be by their inhabitants).

The students of each school are aware of other schools of course. They compete against those other schools academically, sportswise and for funding, etc.

Within each of those individual schools (nations) the Headmaster/Principal holds a position of ultimate power (similar to Presidents, Prime Ministers within individual nations).

The Headmaster/Principal often exhorts the students at his school to 'beat' the students at another school.

He tells the students: ' We are inheritors of a long, proud and distinguished tradition. This school has produced some of the best graduates, sports stars, politicians, writers, painters, scientists of anyone in the world. It's up to you now to uphold this proud tradition. You are our ambassadors, our future. So get out there and win -- thrash the competition ! Be the best ! Fight for this school's honour! '

Students at other schools are similarly preached to by their Headmaster/Principal and by individual teachers.

Quite often, students and teachers alike will accuse or suspect rival schools (nations) of dirty-tricks. This breeds suspicion and distrust.

In many cases, the suspicion is based on lies and rumour. These are nevertheless believed and become 'fact' ( think back to atrocities blamed on Nazis, Communists, Germans, Japanese, Russians, Koreans, Iraqis, etc. within the wider world community).

Individual students of course have worries outside of school ( just as the average American or Pole or Russian does within their ordinary life).

These external concerns and problems combine with the students' anxieties at school.

As we know, people often focus on a common-enemy as a way of dealing with their worries. It happens in schools as it does within nations.

When people unite together against a common-enemy (genuine or contrived) it has the effect of 'bonding' the group.

A student's parents may be divorcing. The home is being sold. The student will have to live with one parent in reduced circumstances. The other parent may be intending to remarry and have other children with their new spouse.

The student is distraught, grieving, angry, lost, fearful. His world is falling apart and he's helpless to fix it.

When he goes onto the sports arena though, he forgets his pain by inflicting it on a competing school's team. He bonds with his team-mates. They become his 'new family'. And if his team wins, it is applauded. The student's pain decreases. When he gets drunk during the celebration, he hugs his team mates and all those who cluster around the school 'heroes'.

His school and team and the groupies and admirers become his reason to live. If anyone attempts to point out that there is no real substance to his team-and-school loyalty, he will argue ferociously, to the death if needs be. The truth is, the student is deathly afraid of losing the false sense of security offered by his alliegance to his school. If that goes, what does he have left ?

In the same way, a nation's inhabitants ( for whatever individual reasons)often bond together against a common-enemy. Each individual feels stronger and more secure when surrounded by others.

When they're in a group and all hating and fighting the common-enemy, each individual is able to forget his own personal worries.

People of all nations are encouraged to feel both superior to and also threatened by .... OTHER nations.

People are told horror-stories about the people of other countries.

The people of each nation revere their flag, their national-anthem and their leaders.

This is so whenever their Leader embroils them in conflict against another nation, those people will grasp their flag and throw themselves bodily into the fray in order to defend their Freedoms, their Way of Life, their Religion, etc.

Many of them die. A lot of them didn't expect to die. They expected to Win.

They believed they and their country and President/Prime Minister/Leader were IN THE RIGHT !

They believed GOD was on THEIR SIDE !

Of COURSE they believed that. It's what they'd been told since childhood.

Their fathers and grandfathers and uncles and brothers had died in the same way, believing the same things. Because THEY had been told they were Better, more Good, more Just, more Free, also. And they'd ALSO been told, all of them, that The Other Guy is the Bad Guy.

But what none of the students in all the different schools were NOT aware of .......... and what all the people of all the different countries are not aware of EITHER is ....

.............. that ALL the Headmasters and Principals and Vice Principals and Presidents and Prime Ministers and Vice Presidents are .......

------------ ALL BUDDIES ! ALL on the SAME SIDE ! ALL MAKING PLANS TOGETHER ........ against ALL the students and ALL the people of the world !

They have played us and are STILL playing us ALL for SUCKERS !

They are STILL manipulating you via Divide and Conquer, just as they did when you were a kid at school.

While you and I are festering in fear and hatred of people we've been told are our ENEMIES .....

......... at the SAME TIME, the Prime Ministers and Presidents and their lackeys and controllers are SITTING AROUND in LUXURY, sharing champagne and cigars and JOKES.

Do you REALLY believe that Putin hates/distrusts Bush or that Blair or Howard ACTUALLY had a problem with Saddam or Bin Laden ?

NO ! You are TOO SMART to buy that.



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:22 PM
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It might FEEL good to be provided a common-enemy who'll take your mind off your mortgage and back-ache, but it's a bound to fail, quick-fix.

Think back. Think back to your Grandfathers as they fought like men possessed against the alleged Heathen Jap in the South Pacific.

It was bloody beyond imagining. Your Grandfathers had mould growing up their legs and under their arms from the unimaginable heat, humidity and parasites.

They died in sheer agony, many of them. They begged someone to put a bullet in their brain just so they could escape the intolerable physical pain.

WHY did they die that way?

It was because they had been TOLD that the Japanese were the hated enemy who would STEAL YOUR FREEDOMS.

Your Grandfathers gave their LIVES for you ! They sacrificed their friends, their careers, their girlfriends and wives and children --- for YOU.

Because they'd been TOLD by their POLITICIANS that UNLESS they sacrificed EVERYTHING, America would FALL to the ENEMY !

Poor beggars.

Because LOOK AROUND YOU NOW !

Do you SEE those Japanese tourists walking through New York and Florida and Boston and Disneyland ?

Do they look happy? Sure they do. Why NOT?

The War is OVER, right?

So WE ARE ALL FRIENDS WITH the people YOUR GRANDFATHER was TOLD were HIS and YOUR HATED, DASTARDLY ENEMIES.

So look at those Japanese tourists. They're nice and friendly and normal, right ? Just like you.

And if you've been to Japan or if you know Japanese personally, then you know they ARE pretty much like you. They care, they cry, they laugh, they love, they smile. Just like you. They love their children and family and friends and want a better world -- just like you. They admire the West and are particular admirers of Americans. They LIKE you and what you do and create.

But THEIR Grandfathers were TOLD by THEIR leaders to HATE everything that Americans stood for. THEIR Grandfathers gave THEIR lives to defend THEIR country against YOU. And THEY died horribly and in agony and sacrificed everything they had.

And NOW you know that the Japanese were FORCED into WW2 by Jewish American and other finance cabals.

And NOW you know that the Japanese were LURED into striking Pearl Harbour while YOUR then-President drank coffee and AWAITED the DEATH of thousands of helpless, unaware American servicemen.

ALL SO the LEADERS of the world at that time could DRAG the US into WW2 officially.

ALL for the Power and Control and Profit of POLITICIANS and the ghouls who controlled them.

Look at Germany, same thing --------- you rub shoulders with German tourists and neighbours, either where you live or in Germany.

Remember Korea? Remember Viet Nam? Remember the Gulf War?

People died in those orchestrated killing machines/wars, you know. And it hurt them. They were in agony as they died. They lost everything.

Do you remember ONE POLITICAL LEADER dying in active duty in those wars ? No. Of course not. They died in comfort. They died rich. They lived in luxury. Their decendants are still living in luxury.

So WHO paid the price?

That's right. YOU did. YOUR families did.

Borders changed. The names of countries changed. Money changed hands every step of the way.

Now they're at it again.

And do YOU believe that Bush is squaring off against Putin ? No, you don't believe that.

What you DO strongly suspect is that this LATEST bit of nonsense is just Part 11 or 12 of the GAME they drafted years ago.

It's a GAME !

It's played with REAL bodies. Yours and mine and the so-called 'enemy's'.

They're just dividing up the world, according to plan.

They're just shuffling the pieces around to keep the idiots (you and me) entralled and involved.

They dangle strings and wiggle them, the way you play with a kitten.

Do you feel superior to the kitten? Sure you do.

There's the kitten, fully transfixed on a bit of wriggling string. It's entirely focused on that string.

So focused that it doesn't even SEE the HAND that moves that string.

You think Putin doesn't phone Blair and Bush to arrange some fun for the following weekend? You think they haven't wined and dined and talked about what they'll do when they retire?

You think they don't LIKE and ADMIRE and ENJOY each other?

COURSE THEY DO !

They're ALL multi-millionaires.

They ALL got that way using the SAME methods.

They ARE PARTNERS in CRIME !

And it has ALWAYS been just TOO easy for them !

Crime-Boss One tells HIS people that Crime-Boss Two and Three are BAD.

Crime-Bosses Two and Three tell THEIR people the reverse.

Then the Crime-Bosses laze around the pool swapping sex stories while the 'idiots' (as they refer to them) don their MILITARY UNIFORMS and head off to a bit of waste-land (currently Iraq) and commence to KILL EACH OTHER. Fun, huh?

And EVERY TIME one of the 'idiots' aims a shell or bullet or missile at the OTHER 'idiots' ------------- it translates to another dollar in the Crime Bosses pockets.

BECAUSE, in addition to engineering 'wars' between 'idiot factions', they ALSO own the munitions companies that SUPPLY AMMUNITION etc. to the various 'idiot factions'.

Easier than taking cake from a baby.

There are ALWAYS 'idiots' who'll go to war obediently and even willingly.

Of COURSE there are. Those 'idiots' are created in early childhood, via propaganda that glorifies 'war' at the same time it instills fear and anger. Give the 'idiots' something to protect and they'll dash off on demand to protect it by killing someone else. Animal territorial instinct is being manipulated here, along with the rest.

So this latest little 'provocation' on the part of (allegedly) Bush against Putin/Russia is nothing more than a continuation of the GAME.

In reality, the Politicians get REALLY BORED with this GAME. Because it is just TOO EASY !

The 'idiots' are TOO PREDICTABLE. They fall for it EVERY TIME.

That's why Politicans reportedly indulge in perversion.

They're jaded.

It's boring, you know, being unimaginably powerful and rich and sated and jaded.

For YOU though, DYING will not be boring. You only get to do it once.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:54 AM
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According to their new military doctrine, they will enter any war if a country bordering them is threatening them. But CZ is ``far`` from them, so they over-react... Anyway, what CZ have? Nothing, and it's not a military threat...



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 11:27 AM
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The reason it is in Poland is because they are our only ally in Europe willing to have it. This ABM system can barely destroy SCUD missiles, let alone Russia's more advanced ICBMs. They have nothing to fear.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 03:44 PM
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Maloy you are over-reacting. Especially when you compared the US putting these systems in Poland to Russia putting it in Venezuela. Give me a break.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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This was probably retailiation for giving Iran the new SAM missiles and the TOR-M1. Its a all a chest game with russia and us. They put some missiles near out interests and we put some near theirs. Just like the jupiter missiles in turkey during the cuban missile crisis.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 04:10 PM
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It's not that the missiles are a direct threat, it's the issue that these installations are pointing to more US militarization in Easterm Europe. Radars will be installed, and needed infrastructure constructed. Regular (non-defensive) missiles wouldn't be long way-off as well.

And what happens when the ABM system gets modified? With the R&D going on now one could imagine these systems having the capibility to actually intercept Russia's ICBM's in a decade. This would force Russia to develop more capable ICBM.

How would US react if Russia decided to put a missile-defense system, coupled with radars in Venezuela or Cuba? Sure its' purpose is purely defensive, but a capable ABM system could render both offensive and defensive capabilities (such a retaliatory strike) of the enemy obsolete. This could put a new twist on the arms race.


And it might seen like I am taking about a very minor issue, because these news are nowhere to be seen on American media. But it is a considerable deal for Russia, and it really concerns Russian armed forces.

As I said, Russia has been toying with the navy base in Syria (to stage its' current Black Sea Fleet). What's more troubling for the US, is the newest S-300 missiles Russia would have to sell to Syria. These would likely find their way to Iran in no time. This would be very grave news for Israel (since the S-300 would be able to patrol the skies over entire Israel). I am sure if the US proceeds with constructing a bastion in Eastern Europe (which it is gradually starting to do), Russia would play its' cards as well. And how am I overreacting? Venezuela (and their new buddies in Bolivia, Ecuador, and Peru) is very much interested in developing ties (militarily) with powers other-than-US.


Also what makes you think Poland is the only NATO member willing to "host" the missiles, if they are not offensive? Plus, Poland is probably one of the last countries in Europe to fear any missile attacks. There were already protests held in both Poland, and Czech Republic about this issue. Americans might ignore it as they are doing, but Russia won't. And in a couple of months you will see a huge stink in here and in the media about evil Putin selling SAM missiles to Syria and possibly Iran. This hypocracy is so obvious, and yet so many people even on ATS buy into it. I guess some bias is better left alone.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by maloy]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 04:44 PM
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ITS JUST ANOTHER WAY TO SHOW OUR POWER TO THE WORLD. AND THAT WE EVERY WERE AND CAN ATTACK AND PROTECT AT A MOMENTS NOTICE.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 04:46 PM
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IM SORRY I CANT TYPE I MENT TO SAY ... WE ARE EVERY WHERE



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 07:18 PM
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Maloy, Russia has already sold missiles and defense weapons to Iran and helps them with their nuclear capabilities. So stop the bs about blaming the US all the time like Russia does absolutely nothing. All I hear from you about how poor little Russia is persecuted by the US and how the US is trying to destroy Eastern Europe by spreading NATO (like Eastern Europe was really good to begin with).

And why do you keep comparing Poland to Venezuela and Cuba? lol. Has Poland embarked to create anti-Russian groups full of nations or spoke openly about the destruction of the Russia?



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Maloy, Russia has already sold missiles and defense weapons to Iran and helps them with their nuclear capabilities.


Russia has sold nothing to Iran, that the West hasn't sold to Iran/Iraq as well. It wasn't Russia that helped Iraq develop its' nuclear program. There is no definitive proof that Russian government had any involvement in Iranian nuclear program. And what missiles has Russia sold to Iran? As I know it refused to sell the newest modification of S-300 to them and to Syria.



Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
So stop the bs about blaming the US all the time like Russia does absolutely nothing. All I hear from you about how poor little Russia is persecuted by the US and how the US is trying to destroy Eastern Europe by spreading NATO (like Eastern Europe was really good to begin with).


And all I hear from many people here is about how un-democratic, imperialistic (hah look who is talking), and aggressive Russia and Putin are. Look at the morons in media who innitiated the stink blaming Putin for Litvenenko's murder, with the "trial by media" accusations. Many people here were all too eager to jump on the band wagon. I am just trying to show how Russia's actions could be seen as reactionary to those of US and NATO. Never have I even remotely implied that Russia does nothing wrong, nor that US is trying to destroy anything.



Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
And why do you keep comparing Poland to Venezuela and Cuba? lol. Has Poland embarked to create anti-Russian groups full of nations or spoke openly about the destruction of the Russia?


Yes Poland did embark to create anti-Russian interest groups in Ukraine and the Baltics during the colored revolutions. They openly supported alot of anti-Russian groups, including Chechen separatists. They never spoke about destruction of Russia or attacking Russia, but neither have Cuba or Venezuela spoke about destroying the US.

Poland has reasons to oppose Soviet Union (Russia as its legacy) and has some credible accusations against it. So does Venezuela and Cuba. I am sure many here know how US has been exploiting South America for the last century, and especially during the Cold War and after it. Venezuela is justified in accusations against the US, as Poland is justified in its accusations. Counter to what you may believe Chavez' presidency didn't appear out of nowhere. There are reasons people elected an anti-American regime, and there are reasons the radical left gained popularity through Latin America.



What I was trying to imply in my post, is that US is behaving recklessly in its strategies (supposedly for the War on Terror) around the world. It considers the short-term gains, but ignores the long term consequences. Look at how anti-American sentiments developed throughout South America. Look at how American aid to Afgani mujahadeen in Russia's War in Afghanistan came to harm the US. Revolutions in Cuba and Iran didn't just sporadically occur as well. They were consequences to America's actions and reckless disregard for local interests.

What makes you think that what US is doing in Eastern Europe is in the locals' best interest (and I am not saying that what Russia did there was in their best interests)? What makes you think that aggressive foreign policy towards Russia won't come back to haunt US in the future? There are other countries in the world besides US and Iraq, and they have opinions and views. I am just presenting one of these views.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by maloy]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Dock6
And NOW you know that the Japanese were FORCED into WW2 by Jewish American and other finance cabals.

And NOW you know that the Japanese were LURED into striking Pearl Harbour while YOUR then-President drank coffee and AWAITED the DEATH of thousands of helpless, unaware American servicemen.

ALL SO the LEADERS of the world at that time could DRAG the US into WW2 officially.

ALL for the Power and Control and Profit of POLITICIANS and the ghouls who controlled them.

Look at Germany, same thing --------- you rub shoulders with German tourists and neighbours, either where you live or in Germany.

Remember Korea? Remember Viet Nam? Remember the Gulf War?

People died in those orchestrated killing machines/wars, you know. And it hurt them. They were in agony as they died. They lost everything.

Do you remember ONE POLITICAL LEADER dying in active duty in those wars ? No. Of course not. They died in comfort. They died rich. They lived in luxury. Their decendants are still living in luxury.

So WHO paid the price?

That's right. YOU did. YOUR families did.

Borders changed. The names of countries changed. Money changed hands every step of the way.

Now they're at it again.

And do YOU believe that Bush is squaring off against Putin ? No, you don't believe that.

What you DO strongly suspect is that this LATEST bit of nonsense is just Part 11 or 12 of the GAME they drafted years ago.

It's a GAME !

It's played with REAL bodies. Yours and mine and the so-called 'enemy's'.

They're just dividing up the world, according to plan.

They're just shuffling the pieces around to keep the idiots (you and me) entralled and involved.

They dangle strings and wiggle them, the way you play with a kitten.

Do you feel superior to the kitten? Sure you do.

There's the kitten, fully transfixed on a bit of wriggling string. It's entirely focused on that string.

So focused that it doesn't even SEE the HAND that moves that string.

You think Putin doesn't phone Blair and Bush to arrange some fun for the following weekend? You think they haven't wined and dined and talked about what they'll do when they retire?

You think they don't LIKE and ADMIRE and ENJOY each other?

COURSE THEY DO !

They're ALL multi-millionaires.

They ALL got that way using the SAME methods.

They ARE PARTNERS in CRIME !

And it has ALWAYS been just TOO easy for them !

Crime-Boss One tells HIS people that Crime-Boss Two and Three are BAD.

Crime-Bosses Two and Three tell THEIR people the reverse.

Then the Crime-Bosses laze around the pool swapping sex stories while the 'idiots' (as they refer to them) don their MILITARY UNIFORMS and head off to a bit of waste-land (currently Iraq) and commence to KILL EACH OTHER. Fun, huh?

And EVERY TIME one of the 'idiots' aims a shell or bullet or missile at the OTHER 'idiots' ------------- it translates to another dollar in the Crime Bosses pockets.

BECAUSE, in addition to engineering 'wars' between 'idiot factions', they ALSO own the munitions companies that SUPPLY AMMUNITION etc. to the various 'idiot factions'.

Easier than taking cake from a baby.

There are ALWAYS 'idiots' who'll go to war obediently and even willingly.

Of COURSE there are. Those 'idiots' are created in early childhood, via propaganda that glorifies 'war' at the same time it instills fear and anger. Give the 'idiots' something to protect and they'll dash off on demand to protect it by killing someone else. Animal territorial instinct is being manipulated here, along with the rest.

So this latest little 'provocation' on the part of (allegedly) Bush against Putin/Russia is nothing more than a continuation of the GAME.

In reality, the Politicians get REALLY BORED with this GAME. Because it is just TOO EASY !

The 'idiots' are TOO PREDICTABLE. They fall for it EVERY TIME.

That's why Politicans reportedly indulge in perversion.

They're jaded.

It's boring, you know, being unimaginably powerful and rich and sated and jaded.

For YOU though, DYING will not be boring. You only get to do it once.


Oh wow, did you really have to point out Jewish cabals?

You sound a little paranoid. I sincerely doubt Jews had anything to do with Pearl Harbor...



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 01:21 AM
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Hi!

I'm Dock6!

I can only type one line at a time before pressing enter!

Isn't it cool?

It is, isn't it?

Okay.


Is Dock6 really trying to imply that all the wars ever fought don't exist? I'm not sure whether I should be laughing or crying.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by maloy
Russia has sold nothing to Iran, that the West hasn't sold to Iran/Iraq as well. It wasn't Russia that helped Iraq develop its' nuclear program. There is no definitive proof that Russian government had any involvement in Iranian nuclear program. And what missiles has Russia sold to Iran? As I know it refused to sell the newest modification of S-300 to them and to Syria.


Russia has shipped nuclear fuel to Iran which can be later used to make atomic weapons. And Russia has sold defensive air weapons to Iran, as well as weapons to Venezuela. You just have to google "Russia helping Iran with nuclear plant", "Russia selling missiles to Iran". I don't feel like going and finding a million links.



I am just trying to show how Russia's actions could be seen as reactionary to those of US and NATO. Never have I even remotely implied that Russia does nothing wrong, nor that US is trying to destroy anything.


We can go around in circles blaming who started what first and who is reactionary to whom. It is useless to do so, when the other country is doing the exact same thing.




Yes Poland did embark to create anti-Russian interest groups in Ukraine and the Baltics during the colored revolutions. They openly supported alot of anti-Russian groups, including Chechen separatists. They never spoke about destruction of Russia or attacking Russia, but neither have Cuba or Venezuela spoke about destroying the US.


Both Chavez and Fidel have spoke about bringing the US down to stop its imperialism. Whatever colorful language you would like to use means nothing, it still means that they want to see the US brought down. If they like to inject the world imperialistic empire that is fine. But it doesn't change the fact that Russia is supplying America's enemies. But I know that the US does the same and has done the same! I won't complain. Neither should you though either.


What I was trying to imply in my post, is that US is behaving recklessly in its strategies (supposedly for the War on Terror) around the world. It considers the short-term gains, but ignores the long term consequences.


This is perhaps the only thing I really agree with.


What makes you think that what US is doing in Eastern Europe is in the locals' best interest (and I am not saying that what Russia did there was in their best interests)?



I don't think being a part of NATO does anything for the local population, and the US isn't doing anything "for" the local population really. Housing an American base here and there and installing interceptor missiles isn't hurting the local population either though.


What makes you think that aggressive foreign policy towards Russia won't come back to haunt US in the future?


It probably will. Unless Russia and the US must cooperate with each other against a threat.


There are other countries in the world besides US and Iraq, and they have opinions and views. I am just presenting one of these views.


You present a biased view as you only cheerlead for your own country and president. Even more so than the conservatives in the United States do. At least try and look at things from both perspectives.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 04:02 PM
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I do look at things from all perspectives, but as anyone else I have a view that I favor over others. I could post in forums about Iraq (a war that I partly support actually), Israel, European politics, economy, etc. But I choose to limit my posts to topics about Eastern Europe. And much more often than not, these topics are focused against Russia (especially Putin), and have titles such as 'Russia is Dangerous', 'What can we do to prevent Russia from taking over the world', 'why is Russia trying to spoil our crusade on terror', and 'Putin kills people' (I am paraphrasing of course).

And I don't argue that what Russia does is right, I simply point out that US isn't in a position to criticize it the way it does, because thats purely hypocritical (remember the anti-Russian speach Cheney gave in Eatern Europe a year ago?). Many people are unaware why Russia or Putin are doing what they are doing, and miscomrehend the actions as hostile or aggresive. I don't defend Putin, and some actions are hostile, but simply try to find an explanation for why he is acting the way he does.


And yes Russia (but not necessarily the "government") did provide Iran with certain puzzle pieces to building "the bomb". A counter arguement would be that the whole nuclear situation in the Mid East was first created when Israel gor nuclear weapons, and some credibly believe that US provided them with such. I for one don't argue against this decision, because I think Israel needs the weapons for political purposes. But as a consequences Iran and others started searching for nuclear tech as well (a search on which France capitalized before Russia).

And the defensive SAM rockets provided to Iran recently (just in today's news actually on BBC), are nothing compared to Patriot missiles or the advanced S-400 system. Their operational radius is no more than 20 miles, and they are vastly outdated. The S-400 (400 kilometer range) however would be really bad news for US, and it has already threatened Russia if the sale occurs. BTW could this recent deal have something to do with the missiles in Europe I wonder?

And what is wrong with selling weapons to Venezuela (jets and assault rifles were sold, not missiles or nuclear weapons)? It's not even on the US's official hit list yet. Mexico recently purchased Russian weapons as well. US did place an international "boycott" of Sukhoi aviation company and other Russian defense companies, yet this is purely symbolic and holds no true meaning. The world weapons market is more or less free, so anybody who so wishes can buy weapons from anyone else (political foreign affiliation and consequences are another matter).



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I don't think being a part of NATO does anything for the local population, and the US isn't doing anything "for" the local population really. Housing an American base here and there and installing interceptor missiles isn't hurting the local population either though.


If it does nothing for the good of the population, why is it done then? Isn't the main theoretical purpose of politicians to do what is in the best interests of the people. I just don't see how hosting NATO bases is in their countries, and participating in NATO affairs best interests.

Look at Ukraine. Massive protests were held against NATO exercises in Crimea. Not even the majority of Congress supported the exercises and sharing of military bases, but Yuschenko's approval was enough. Dozens of operational jets and bombers in Ukrainian armed forces were disassembled by NATO. Why? What did Ukraine get in return? New F-35 or F-18 jets? Nope.

And now that they are NATO members, Eastern European countries became involved in the war on terror. This could hardly benefit them, as they did not face any issues with Muslim extremists before. Now they have to be concerned with possible retaliation from terrorists (like Spain and UK already suffered). Many people in Eastern Europe (including Ukraine, Bulgaria, Greece) are also still sore about NATO's questionable involvement in Serbia, which is a slavic country.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by maloy
And yes Russia (but not necessarily the "government") did provide Iran with certain puzzle pieces to building "the bomb".



I don't know about the puzle pieces, what I do know is the nuclear fuel and the helping of building nuclear reactors.


A counter arguement would be that the whole nuclear situation in the Mid East was first created when Israel gor nuclear weapons, and some credibly believe that US provided them with such.



Wrong, France and Britain are your answers to that one not the US.



And the defensive SAM rockets provided to Iran recently (just in today's news actually on BBC), are nothing compared to Patriot missiles or the advanced S-400 system. Their operational radius is no more than 20 miles, and they are vastly outdated. The S-400 (400 kilometer range) however would be really bad news for US, and it has already threatened Russia if the sale occurs. BTW could this recent deal have something to do with the missiles in Europe I wonder?


Listen...you're a smart guy so let's be honest.

The US will probably attack Iran agreed? Through air attacks mostly..agreed?

Russia is selling air defense weapons to IRAN. I am sure the FSB know that the US is preparing to attack Iran eventually.

Unlike Russia...they are not planning on attacking Poland or going to war with Europe. So how can you even compare missiles being placed in Europe when it really doesn't affect Russia at all to missiles being sold to Iran which will be used on an eventual war to kill Americans?

Seriously that is not logical.


And what is wrong with selling weapons to Venezuela (jets and assault rifles were sold, not missiles or nuclear weapons)?


What's wrong with the US selling weapons to Georgia? Weren't you whining about that non-stop recently?

I guess it can be compared to that.

btw I forgot this thread existed and I just found it tonight



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 12:47 AM
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double posted

[edit on 29-1-2007 by RetinoidReceptor]



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 05:39 AM
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Originally posted by maloy
And I don't argue that what Russia does is right, I simply point out that US isn't in a position to criticize it the way it does, because thats purely hypocritical (remember the anti-Russian speach Cheney gave in Eatern Europe a year ago?).


So why don't us all a favor and move there. You are siding with communism, socialism, and dictatorship.

You really need to do better research before you make such posts - Russia - AS A GOVERMNET - has sold nuclear fuel, helped build nuclear facilities andhas sold dangerous weapons to Iran.

Don't you get it man? They are not our friend, they are forming alliances with nations that want to see us dead.

So why don't you take your disinformation elsewhere.

[edit on 29-1-2007 by crisko]




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