Web Site Kicks GI's when their Down Sleeping on the Ground

Originally posted by JIMC5499
I think Spawn's post violates the T&Cs but on one seems to care about that.

File a complaint then, and the moderators will decide if it is against the terms and conditions, not you. That's the SOP: file here

Personally, I think a lot of hate gets misdirected. That baffoon at the mattress company isn't responsible for the soldiers' welfare in Iraq, and we should wonder why they have to go thru civilians for essential items.

Meanwhile, summer is coming:
www.coolourtroops.com...


[edit on 24-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
That's quite enough.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how wrong-headed, cruel, or illogical that opinion might be, but the instant you start attacking your fellow members, that all goes out the window.

My contribution was both genuine and sincere, and it was not my intention to come off being sarcastic.

If my post was interpretted that way, it was not meant that way.

You are not entitled to attack your fellow members. Period. Review the T&Cs if you're unclear about any aspect of the rules. Here's the Link

But, Spawwwn attacked me personnally with his rhetoric .....

Originally posted by Spawwwn
It's not our fault ppl in the military were to stupid or to poor to get any other job then killing people.

I was called stupid, poor, and a killer.

If we can't violently overthrow the government, at LEAST we can protest and not send them supplies and help them.

I was called stupid, poor, and a killer by someone who sounds dissapointed that they can't violently overthrow the government.

don't feel sorry for these soldjers, they brought it apon themselves.

I was called stupid, poor, and a killer by someone who sounds dissapointed that they can't violently overthrow the government, and views the american people who re-elected the policy maker as blameless and devoid of any responsibility for what they are putting the military members through.

Originally Posted by WyrdeOne
If you disagree with someone's point of view, then say so. Attack the argument, not the person making it.

I agree with you WyrdeOne.
thanks,
john

My earlier post wasn't aimed at you Esoteric Teacher, sorry for the confusion. It was a general simmer down message meant to prevent the thread from unravelling into a flame-fest.

As to your claim that you were attacked by his rhetoric, I disagree. Your group was attacked - 'soldiers' in a broad way, were attacked.

If he had attacked you, ATS Member, Esoteric Teacher, I would feel differently about the subject. I feel very strongly about personal attacks, because I feel they are the point of no return when it comes to discussion.

As it is, while I disagree with anti-soldier rhetoric on a personal level, I don't consider it a personal attack demanding mod action any more than I consider negative comments about a particular religion to be personal attacks against practictioners who happen to be ATS members, or comments disparaging Republicans/Democrats or politicians in general to be targetted remarks against ATS members who fall into those categories.

Obviously, with a board this diverse, any disparaging comment about any group is going to be felt by someone. The key, in my mind at least, is to talk about the issues and not our fellow members, it's the only way to preserve the integrity of the discussion.

I realize the comments in question were offensive to soldiers, but as long as he doesn't start calling you names, and as long as there isn't a pattern of abusive posting - I'm fine with the discussion. My interpretation is open to question, and obviously I'm not the only member/mod on the board. I encourage you, or anyone else who thinks I acted inappropriately, to complain using the proper channels. Thanks.

Good points WydeOne.

And, no. I don't think your contributions were out of line at all. I just felt a need to elaborate on my own post, and justify why i offered a rebuttal for Spawwwn

Keep up the good work, and the great posts WyrdeOne.

Thanks for sharing,
john

Just a reminder:

Argue the facts. Don't argue a blanket condemnation of everyone in a group -- that's the kind of prejudice you don't want leveled against YOU, so don't do it to others.

There are jerks in every race and country and faction. There are also good people in every race and country and faction (including some very good and very kind but very fundamentalist Muslims.) Remember that an attack against the ones directly involved is fair and just, but to tar everyone with the same thing no matter if they're involved or not is NOT a principle endorsed by America ("Innocent until proven guilty") or any other free nation on this globe.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by BlackOps719

You are a pathetic, ungrateful excuse for an American citizen and a human being and I truly hope that you aren't as ignorant and pathetic in real life as your comments portray you to be .... blah blah blah....

Land of the free, home of the brave?

Or more like freedom of speech as long as it suits the administration of the time and convinient thinking?

This post went beyond the pale. The poster to whom you refer is as entitled to his opinon as you are.

Is this really how you would like to see your country portrayed on an international message board?

The reason I ask is that it appears that you want to choke this persons right to have an opinon, and think it is a good idea to remove him from your country if he has a different opinion to yours.

Is that what the United States of America is about?

Are you leading by example there?

If so, what makes you any different from the radical Extremists that you are fighting who also refuse to see any other way and think that those who disagree with them need to be removed?

[edit on 24/0107/07 by neformore]

I typically don't overeact or let words get to me, and generally speaking I do not react in such a hostile manner toward people with a differing opinion from my own, but I tend to get a bit sensitive when someone makes a statement that is so vile that it is an afront to virtually everything that I hold dear. I love this country and I love my brothers who are fighting right now over seas and I feel that what he said was unforgivable and unbelievably disrespectful toward my home land and the thousands of men who have toiled and sacrificed and died so that we could have the freedoms that we take for granted. For those of you who choose to ignore people like this and turn a deaf ear to such statements that is your right to do so, but I refuse. You are entitled to your opinion and so is this Spawn person ...but so am I and I gave it and I don't apologize for it. Best regards

It's funny how you can all attack Spawwwn over his post, and start showing off with your stories of supposed military experience (which is slightly irrelevant in this topic btw). But in 2 pages of personal attacks against him, not one of you could answer the valid point he was making

So why couldn't the mighty rich US Military just give this [poor] soldier a sleeping mat like they're meant to?

You're all blinded by your patriotic ignorance, slagging off this mat company. But you're forgetting that your great military which looks after its men must also have declined him one in the first place!

Originally posted by Spawwwn
in the military were to stupid or to poor to get any other job then killing people.

Your grammar stinks. Lousy spelling too. Who are you calling stupid again?

Originally posted by Wazaki
I don't see what the fuss is all about. They deserve to be treated like this.

No they don't.

Originally posted by sky1
IMHO, when men and women join the military, they are fully aware of the possible consequences.

Well .. the recruiters sure don't tell you. You have to know it going in. My recruiter didn't tell me squat and even lied to me saying I could go airborne. When I got in (1981) I found out that airborne didn't want women. I got screwed.

But yes, common sense does say that someone going in the military should know that it won't be a picnic.

Originally posted by lee anoma
Sounds bogus to me. All the tax dollars being poured into this war and they can't get sleeping mats?

Recently our soldiers were seen scrounging for scrap metal in the streets of Baghdad because they couldn't get enough armor in their jeeps to protect them from snipers, etc. I think I remember these being National Guard units. It is entirely possible, and rather probable, that this story is true.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
the door is always open and you are more than welcome to leave this country at any point and time that you see fit.

AMEN.

Originally posted by malganis
and start showing off with your stories of supposed military experience

I was in the US Army for FIVE years. That's not 'supposed'. And we have a right to be proud of our service. What's the matter .. guess you obviously don't have anything to be proud of. How sad for you.

(which is slightly irrelevant in this topic btw).

WRONG. It's highly on topic. Our experiences in the military are first hand experiences - experiences with supplies and conditions in the field and in the theatre.

not one of you could answer the valid point he was making

He didn't make any valid points.

You're all blinded by your patriotic ignorance,

patriotism isn't ignorant.

your great military

It IS great. Our military keeps us free. The people in the military are serving this country and ensuring our freedoms. You betchya is a 'great military'.

which looks after its men

... and women. Don't forget us women. Yes, the military looks after those who enlisted, but there isn't always enough to take good care of everyone. It happens. So our military sometimes look outside of channels for items to get things done. It's no big deal.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

not one of you could answer the valid point he was making

He didn't make any valid points.

Er he did, and I clearly re-stated it in case you missed it the first time. You've just chosen to ignore it again, and even acknowledge yourself ignoring it!

I'll ask one more time :Why wasn't the soldier issued a mat by his military?

It's a simple question, I don't see why you need to try and avoid it yet still see it correct to personally attack people!

(which is slightly irrelevant in this topic btw).

WRONG. It's highly on topic. Our experiences in the military are first hand experiences - experiences with supplies and conditions in the field and in the theatre.

It doesn't matter how many years you've been in the military, you still can't seem to explain why they couldn't issue the soldier a sleeping mat any more than the rest of us.

which looks after its men

... and women. Don't forget us women. Yes, the military looks after those who enlisted, but there isn't always enough to take good care of everyone. It happens. So our military sometimes look outside of channels for items to get things done. It's no big deal.

It wasn't meant in a sexist way btw, just a general term. As in 'manpower', it doesn't just mean men.

ok fine, you want a direct answer to your question, ill give it an objective shot.

for the purpose of this post, im going to assume youve never been in the military so all you know of it is what you see on tv or movies. its ok, we'll forgive you this time.

the reason this soldier doesnt have a mat starts at the top in most cases. now, its possible that he lost the one he WAS issued and that supply simply didnt have anymore, OR its possible that he simply didnt like the one he had and was trying to buy one he did like for himself. we dont have enough info on that. all the letter he sent said he was tired of sleeping on the ground and he didnt really say WHY he was sleeping on the ground. personally i always preferred the back of a humvee or my little corner in the TOC, but thats just me, i liked to be close to where i worked 24/7.

anyway. assuming that he simply was NEVER issued one, like i said, it usually starts at the top. the govt passes the military's budget and then that budget is broken up between every unit in the army. each unit is authorized X number of people in the unit and therefore supplies are issued to that unit based on that. but, what most dont know is that the govts budget is dispersed and each unit has its own budget and if soldiers lose thier stuff or its damaged, replacements come out of thier budget. if they expend their budget then they are boned.

sometimes supplies are moved around within larger units. sometimes the suppliers for the govt dont deliver on time. sometimes supplies are simply stolen, lost w/e. do you imagine if this guys unit was on patrol, sleeping and came under fire and had to either engage or bug out, you suppose his sleeping mat was real high on his priority list of things to grab on the run? not likely.

so in answer to your question of why the military didnt give him one, its pretty much impossible to answer without more data. in all likelyhood he WAS given one but just because he was issued one doesnt mean he still had it or liked it very much. sometimes supplies are scavenged for other things. we were all issued mosquito netting in a unit i was with. we got deployed to an area where the bugs were so bad we cut them up for head covers. so if i had tried to buy one to replace it would everyone be all like "oh why wasnt he given one?" for all we know the guy took his issue sleeping mat and cut it up for knee and elbow pads. who can say?

hope that helps answer your question.

but for the record, i did 12 years and i dont consider myself stupid in the least, i was never that poor, and i had plenty of other options. but i guess thats 'irrelevant'.

Originally posted by Damocles
for the purpose of this post, im going to assume youve never been in the military so all you know of it is what you see on tv or movies. its ok, we'll forgive you this time.

but for the record, i did 12 years and i dont consider myself stupid in the least, i was never that poor, and i had plenty of other options. but i guess thats 'irrelevant'.

Just because i've never fought in the military it doesn't mean I haven't studied it, so don't patronise so quickly. And I don't mean watching TV and movies.

But thanks for addressing the question I was asking rather than automatically spurting out personal attacks like most other people on here.

And for the record, i'm not the one who said soldiers were stupid or poor.

Yes in your case being in the military IS relevant because you've shown that your experience has helped you to answer my question. What I meant by 'irrelevant' was all the other people who were just posting their military history to try and look big and justify personal attacks, while not even contributing to the discussion.

Originally posted by the_sentinal
This could be likened too spitting in the faces of the Vietnam era GI's and is the lowest form of protest over this war

I don't think so. They were requesting free mattresses, its perfectly permissible for the company to explain why they're not going to give them away.

@malganis: ya know, i just reread my post and i did NOT mean to come off as such a dick. sometimes i just get the 'old man syndrome' tend to think of everyone else as 'kids'. for this i can simply offer my most sincere and humble apology. i guess the point i was attempting to make is that MOST people base their knowledge of the military on sources other than first hand experience and no matter what source you may have used, until you live it you just cant KNOW. again, that didnt come through as intended and for that i apologize.

@nygdan: not trying to nit pick, but i dont see where he was asking for freebies. he clearly states he wants to order some mats, but gives teh impression, to me at least, that he doesnt want to waste time with a company which doesnt ship to APO's.

Do you ship to APO (military) addresses? I'm in the 1st Cavalry Division stationed in Iraq and we are trying to order some mats but we are looking for ships to APO first."

now if he was asking for a freebie id agree that the company can say no and thats all well and good. even if the company as a whole disagreed with the war for them to say 'no, we dont ship to apo's but thanks for your interest in our product" would have sufficed. at issue is the tone of the response in my opinion.

but, thats why we signed up for the military. protect peoples rights to speech even when we disagree. but since i also have that right, im simply saying i disagree with the way it was handled.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by the_sentinal
This could be likened too spitting in the faces of the Vietnam era GI's and is the lowest form of protest over this war

I don't think so. They were requesting free mattresses, its perfectly permissible for the company to explain why they're not going to give them away.

IMO the mattress company employee showed enough verbal distain for the military that, had the GI showed up in person to make the order he might have gotten spit on. either way the act of the empoyee was insulting and rude.