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Pyramids, thinking out of the box: Water and Clay.

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posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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I refer to my earlier first posts in this forum :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Pyramids at Giza were there BEFORE the Egyptians got there. (Thread closed)
I made clear enough in that thread, that I strongly belief that the pyramids were constructed by ancient Egyptians.

The pyramids construction and the river Nile could have something in common : water and clay.

We all know that the ancient (and present) Egyptian culture was interwoven with the presence of water.
As it was at the same time with the use of rock, clay and sand.

An Egyptian architect, challenged by the task of constructing a giant pyramid of mainly limestone, would probably sometime during his contemplation of the various possibilities, come up with the eventual use of water to assist with, and ease his task.

In first instance, he would draw a rectangular, shaped of single limestone blocks.
Then he would want to fill the huge open space inside with water, and he would want to keep it there, for his idea to work.

So, why not make it watertight with something he surely was aware of from Egyptian agriculture.
whetted clay.
Every year, during the 3 months seasonal Nile floods, an abundance of it, was precipitated in the farmers fields alongside the river Nile, so why not use a tiny part of it. So he did.

He now had a man made dry "lake", zoomed by limestone blocks which then were smeared with a thin layer of wetted clay on the inside.
He first found out that limestone sucks up reasonable amounts of water, if not protected by a thin layer of wet clay.
So he probably protected the limestone base floor also.

As we know by now, through ground radar tests, the center of the floor space was an elevated massive natural mount of limestone, and this greatly reduced the amount of water needed, for the first one third of the total height of the, yet to be constructed pyramid.

He first ordered canals to be digged from the nearby Nile to the base of the Gizah plateau, so he caught 2 flies in one strike :
1. An easy way to transport the limestone blocks from the quarries on the opposite side of the Nile to as close as possible to the Gizah plateau,
2. Have an abundance of water available at the foot of the Gizah plateau, to be transported up by means of waterwheels or screws in tubes, see-saws with animal skin buckets or just plain buckets. Perhaps he even had the notion of the construction of baked clay pipe pumps and baked clay pipes to pump the water up.
The loss of water through cracks between the limestone blocks would be easily been overcome by refilling water during the pyramid construction.

He now ordered swallow wooden barks to be constructed, which were able to bear the load of one limestone pyramid construction block, and one person to push it around by means of a wooden pole, without running the bottom of the bark on ground.

He now had a fast transportation method at hand to deliver his blocks where ever he needed them within the periphery of the limestone block zoomed rectangular man made "lake".
He would fairly early discover that the best method of delivering and placement of the blocks would be, by balancing the upward force delivered by the wooden bark, with the downward weight of the block plus boatsman.
In such a way, that the bark was effectively submerged, with just a small clearing space with the bottom.
This was easily achieved by the boatsman, tare-ing the total weight with a range of standardized small limestone tare stones he took with him during every delivery.
The heaviest blocks needed no tare stones, the lightest blocks needed the biggest tare stones.
These were placed on heaps on both sides of the "loading dock" corners, to be chosen from.

The "lake" would be filled up with blocks from one side, and around the limestone mount, and when the remaining surface would decrease, the amount of barks would also decrease, until only one was left over in the last row to be placed alongside the opposite side of where they started.

This would have a positive effect on construction time compared to common believe "dry" construction, since transport and grinding into position to a high degree of precision would be easier and faster.

Then they constructed the next layer, smeared the bottom and the sides again with a thin layer of wet clay, and performed the same operation, and so on, until they reached about one third of the ultimate height of the pyramid.

To transport the pyramid blocks up the various layers, they either used ramps whetted with clay to facilitate the gliding of those blocks on the ground, or sleds pulled by pairs of oxen, or wooden see-saw poles to lever the blocks up alongside the already constructed pyramid layers.

When they reached one third height, (and had layed more than 3/5th of the total amount of construction blocks), they switched to smaller construction blocks (as is actually observed), which were delivered via the existing ramps to that level, and then transported higher up by means of the already mentioned see-saws.


One observed fact to substantiate this thesis is the presence of the so called huge "sand chambers" inside the pyramid, also discovered by the recent ground radar tests. Perhaps they are remnants of a mix of washed out clay and grinded down limestone.
Which offers perhaps another explanation of the existing small square shaped passages leading down from the outside walls The ones explored lately with the remote wheeled robots plus camera. They could be drainage passages for the grinding slurries produced during the grinding in place of the upper 2/3th of the pyramid blocks.
However this I see as a tiny bit far fetched, since simply letting the slurry drip down the sides and wash the ultimate remains off the sides at the end of the construction period would be a more simple solution.

Another positive effect of the usage of water would be the possibility of grinding the raw limestone blocks in the water of the "lake", on the existing floors, so they would fit exactly in the delivered position.
This could be achieved by attaching one or two "pi" formed clamps with a long pole on top of the pi-shape, on the top of a block, and 2 or 4 workers slid the block so long over the bottom and then along the side of the adjacent block until it fitted perfectly.
Then the two blocks were pushed in place, and the next pair would be grinded in place.


I came up to this thesis because I am still contemplating the intention of the many, circa 1 meter deep round holes drilled in the bedrock, found around all 4 sides of the Great Pyramid.
My first thought was that they were used as pumps, fitted with greased round stoneblocks with two holes in them, covered with one leather valve on top of one, and one at the bottom of the other one, and fitted in the center with a wooden pole, so one man could pump up water through baked clay pipes or leathered animal intestines up the pyramid.
Those clay pipes would have been connected to the top hole by means of a piece of leathered intestine, to facilitate a flexible connection to the clay pipes.
The pump hole would have been surrounded with a small high dike, and that space filled with Nile water brought up from the canal at the bottom of the Gizah plateau.
With that many pumps around all sides, the "lakes" would have been quickly filled and kept filled when water was leaking out during grinding of the limestone blocks in place.

The inevitable conclusion of that "pump holes" usage was this thesis, or at least the limestone grinding part of it.
Since I have wondered already for a long time how they managed to fit a square block into an L-shaped block sidewise, so perfectly. Grinding with lots of water would be the only possible sane conclusion.




posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by LaBTop
An Egyptian architect, challenged by the task of constructing a giant pyramid of mainly limestone, would probably sometime during his contemplation of the various possibilities, come up with the eventual use of water to assist with, and ease his task.


Remember that this is a research area, not a speculation area. Can you provide a source for how you know what an ancient Egyptian architect would have done?



In first instance, he would draw a rectangular, shaped of single limestone blocks.
Then he would want to fill the huge open space inside with water, and he would want to keep it there, for his idea to work.


Tell us about your specific research.

What sources are you using for this conclusion? What kind of underwater equipment were they using? Please link to images and texts (because, as was said, this is an area for discussing material backed up by other sources.)


Every year, during the 3 months seasonal Nile floods, an abundance of it, was precipitated in the farmers fields alongside the river Nile, so why not use a tiny part of it. So he did.
He now had a man made dry "lake", zoomed by limestone blocks which then were smeared with a thin layer of wetted clay on the inside.
He first found out that limestone sucks up reasonable amounts of water, if not protected by a thin layer of wet clay.

Tell us about your research here -- what sources you found that tell you that he did this. Can you point to some examples of watertight structures that were built this way by ancient Egyptians?

Which of the 110+ pyramids in Egypt show this kind of evidence and are there other temples and monuments in Egypt that show this same kind of construction?


As we know by now, through ground radar tests, the center of the floor space was an elevated massive natural mount of limestone, and this greatly reduced the amount of water needed, for the first one third of the total height of the, yet to be constructed pyramid.


We need to know more about this as it's backed up by artifacts and sites. Link?

All pyramids and temples or only a few or...?


He first ordered canals to be digged from the nearby Nile to the base of the Gizah plateau, so he caught 2 flies in one strike :


Could you point to your research that shows evidence of the canals and their length?


1. An easy way to transport the limestone blocks from the quarries on the opposite side of the Nile to as close as possible to the Gizah plateau,

The blocks came from the quarry on the south part of the plateau. No rivers were crossed.
en.wikipedia.org...


2. Have an abundance of water available at the foot of the Gizah plateau, to be transported up by means of waterwheels or screws in tubes, see-saws with animal skin buckets or just plain buckets. Perhaps he even had the notion of the construction of baked clay pipe pumps and baked clay pipes to pump the water up.

Do you have links to examples where the ancient Egyptians made pipes and screws (as far as I know, this device was invented by Archimedes in 300 BC or thereabouts.)? What research are you using that shows this to be an older device?



This was easily achieved by the boatsman, tare-ing the total weight with a range of standardized small limestone tare stones he took with him during every delivery.
The heaviest blocks needed no tare stones, the lightest blocks needed the biggest tare stones.
These were placed on heaps on both sides of the "loading dock" corners, to be chosen from.


Do you have a map of the plateau and its area that shows the field of leftover "tare stones"? Remember, this is a research section, and we want to look over the evidence.


Then they constructed the next layer, smeared the bottom and the sides again with a thin layer of wet clay, and performed the same operation, and so on, until they reached about one third of the ultimate height of the pyramid.


I'm not familar with any material that shows the presence of clay between the blocks or clay and silt in the lower chambers, which were built before the pyramid was finished. Could you cite a source, please?


One observed fact to substantiate this thesis is the presence of the so called huge "sand chambers" inside the pyramid, also discovered by the recent ground radar tests. Perhaps they are remnants of a mix of washed out clay and grinded down limestone.

What do you know about the texture and composition of the sand in the chambers? Clay silt has a very distinct profile, and so do rocks. Could you link to a good source on the material in the sand chambers?

I didn't find any link, but I didn't look hard. Do you have a source for the texture of the material?


Which offers perhaps another explanation of the existing small square shaped passages leading down from the outside walls The ones explored lately with the remote wheeled robots plus camera. They could be drainage passages for the grinding slurries produced during the grinding in place of the upper 2/3th of the pyramid blocks.


...could you point to the passages that slope down and out of the pyramid rather than down and into the King's Chamber and Queen's Chamber?

Or if you're not talking about the Great Pyramid, could you link to the other pyramids that have these exit shafts pointing down and out of the pyramid?


I came up to this thesis because I am still contemplating the intention of the many, circa 1 meter deep round holes drilled in the bedrock, found around all 4 sides of the Great Pyramid.


Source? Links? What's the age of these holes?


My first thought was that they were used as pumps, fitted with greased round stoneblocks with two holes in them, covered with one leather valve on top of one, and one at the bottom of the other one, and fitted in the center with a wooden pole, so one man could pump up water through baked clay pipes or leathered animal intestines up the pyramid.
Those clay pipes would have been connected to the top hole by means of a piece of leathered intestine, to facilitate a flexible connection to the clay pipes.


Could you provide a link to ancient Egyptian pumps? And pipes?


The pump hole would have been surrounded with a small high dike, and that space filled with Nile water brought up from the canal at the bottom of the Gizah plateau.
With that many pumps around all sides, the "lakes" would have been quickly filled and kept filled when water was leaking out during grinding of the limestone blocks in place.

Remember that this is a research and discussion area... we would like to see links to the grinding techniques or experiments by other researchers that show this technique.


Since I have wondered already for a long time how they managed to fit a square block into an L-shaped block sidewise, so perfectly. Grinding with lots of water would be the only possible sane conclusion.

Can you show the links that show this is the only possible way to grind limestone perfectly?

Again, remember that this is the "research and scholarship" area, where we discuss evidence with links to sites and articles.

The "I'm doing a thought experiment" type of reasoning goes in Skunk Works.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 02:18 AM
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How about some references for that?

I don't think it's possible... I mean, have you actually looked at how high some of those pyramids are?



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 06:15 PM
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Since I am basicly a chaotic thinker, I will try to address the various questions in an order of most intrigueing answers, as they come up in my mind, and as they appear to me as attractive pathways to my own thought processes and those of the questioners. I'll try to answer them all in due time, since I am easily derailed by additional interesting complications submerging during any online discussions. I apologize for that in advance. Bare with me.

Quarry sites also situated on the Eastern shores of the river Nile :


Many of the pyramids were built with a number of different stone materials. Most of the material used was fairly rough, low grade limestone used to build the pyramid core, while fine white limestone was often employed for the outer casing as well as to cover interior walls, though pink granite was also often used on inner walls. Basalt or alabaster was not uncommon for floors, particularly in the mortuary temples

The finer, white limestone employed in the pyramids and mortuary temples was not as easy to quarry, and had to be found further from the building site. One of the main sources for this limestone was the Muqattam hills on the west bank of the Nile near modern Tura and Maasara. This stone laid buried further from the surface, so tunnels had to be dug in order to reach the actual stone quarry. Sometimes these deposits were as deep as fifty meters, and huge caverns had to be built to reach the quarry. Generally, large chunks of stone were removed, and then finely cut into blocks. The blocks were then moved to the building site on large wooden sledges pulled by oxen. The path they took would be prepared with a mud layer from the Nile in order to facilitate the moving.

Pink granite, basalt and alabaster were used much more sparingly. Most of this material was moved from various locations in southern Egypt by barges on the Nile. Pink granite probably most often came from the quarries around Aswan.

Basalt, on the other hand was not as far away. Only recently have we discovered that most of the basalt used in pyramid construction came from an Oligocene flow located at the northern edge of the Fayoum Depression (Oasis). Here, we find the worlds oldest paved road, which led to the shores of what once was a lake. During the Nile inundation each year, this lake made a connection to the Nile, so at that time, the basalt was moved across the lake and into the Nile for transport.

Alabaster is quarried from either open pits or underground. In open pits, veins of Alabaster are found 12 to 20 feet below the surface under a layer of shale which can be two or three feet deep. The rocks have an average height of 16-20 inches and a diameter of two to three feet. Much of the alabaster used in the pyramids probably came from Hatnub, a large quarry near Amarna north of modern Luxor.

However, it should be pointed out that by even the end of the Old Kingdom, there were hundreds of various types of quarries scattered across the western and eastern deserts, the Sinai and southern Palestine.

Source.

This, I hope, sufficiently proves my one sentence from my first post, about the 2 flies caught in one catch.
There were stone quarries on the opposite shore of the Nile, seen from the Giza plateau.
And their products were shipped over and used in the Giza pyramids.
And as I have pointed out already ; in one of my posts in the thread of the very first link I referenced to in my above first post, (somewhere in the first 15 pages of that 47 pages long winding thread) ; the bulk of the raw limestone used for the main core of the Giza pyramids were quarried between 300 and 500 yards away from them. I was fully aware of that and linked a source for that knowledge.

I also gave quite a lot of links to highly interesting Egyptology sites, and I don't see the need to repeat myself 'ad infinitum', as that is becoming a senseless art form lately at Internet forums.
My teachers gave me a precious gift : Always Read Other Authors References.
The data mining of the Internet still can not compete by far with the oldfashioned way I learned my part of the collective human wisdom : BOOKS.

Googling and linking is not the sole wisdom at hand.

Books you can hold onto and save for hundreds of years.
One liner links you loose in a decade in the grinding mill called the Internet.
The adagio of the modern internet researcher : "Links please", is mostly worthless already after 5 years.
Ofcourse they are damn handy at the time of discussion, but later readers can not depend on them too long, most will vanish fairly fast.
I lost myriads of links favourized in my various browsers, from the beginning of the public Internet in 1986 up till now.
I do save them now as full webpages, so I don't get cut off from wells of wisdom anymore.
Thus I have the full texts, not only hidden in soon to be lost one-liner links.

Interested readers will find out soon that the old wisdom is still mostly in the books.
And in visiting on site, the many ancient treasure troves, and experience the ambiance, see it with your own eyes, feel the textures of the stones, measure your tiny self against the gigantic art works of myriads of ANCIENT human hands. Perhaps our own forefathers. Feel the touch of Time.
And ask yourself, " How did they do it.? "

Facts :
www.touregypt.net...
The bulk of the core's of the Giza pyramids were made up from very irregular stones, set in a crude way.

Nevertheless, there are simply many assumptions, particularly about the Great Pyramids of Giza, that are not true.


Read this reference carefully, it shows that a lot of "facts" written by various members in this forum are not facts at all.

[edit on 23/1/07 by LaBTop]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 06:25 PM
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A common mistake some readers often make is to hold on to the present geography frames.
As you can read above, there -once- ( 5,000 yrs ago ) was a lake, facilitating the transport of quarry blocks to the Nile and then to the Giza building sites.
So it isn't that far fetched to suppose a different flow pattern of the river Nile 5,000 years ago.
And please let the weight of that one word "once", sink in.
It means that now it is dry, thus not inundated every year by the river Nile anymore, which inevitably leads us to the conclusion that the average maximum flood levels of that river Nile 5,000 years ago reached higher than nowadays.

Giza plateau orientation and possible higher Nile river beds nearer to Giza 5,000 year ago :

Over a 5,000 year period, substantial erosion of the Nile river bed will have taken place. Causing the Nile to flow lower at present day near Giza. The Nile is a flood river, fed by the Blue and White Nile in the southern mountains, where enormous seasonal rains cause downstream the inundation of farmland and erosion of the Lower Nile river beds in the northern regions.

Have a look at this picture of the Great Pyramid, shot from the west, overseeing Cairo and the Nile :


The Great Pyramid of Khufu in Egypt

The floodplains of the Nile are fairly flat, up till the foot of the Giza plateau, on which the Great Pyramid stands.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 07:31 PM
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Ah! Now, adding references makes your posts a lot more interesting!

And please don't fall into the "I posted this before and I don't want to repeat myself" mindset! Remember that there will be many people who haven't read your previous posts, who would like to see the supporting material. This section really serves to educate a lot of people who may not be reading other sections.



Originally posted by LaBTop
There were stone quarries on the opposite shore of the Nile, seen from the Giza plateau.
And their products were shipped over and used in the Giza pyramids.

Check! And thanks for the reference!


The adagio of the modern internet researcher : "Links please", is mostly worthless already after 5 years.

Quite true... however, most folks don't have a library or the option to buy the books. In places where books are cited, authors and titles and page references are given. That's a bit unwieldy at this point.

Anyway, thank you for the references! Please continue with the other evidences you find that support your ideas.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Byrd]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 07:45 PM
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Massive limestone bedrock knoll inside Khufu's Great Pyramid :

www.touregypt.net...

Creating the Ground Plan

After the primary coordinates were determined, the ground plan would be marked out. Some of the methods used to do so varied from pyramid to pyramid. Here, we examine the means by which the ground plan of the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza was determined.

Initially, a reference line along true north was constructed from the orientation process. The next step would be to create a true square with precise right angles. Within Khufu's pyramid, there is actually a massif of natural rock jutting up that was used as part of the pyramid's core. Therefore, measuring the diagonals of the square to check for accuracy was impossible.


The "pump" holes :

www.touregypt.net...

However, at Khufu's pyramid, there are a number of post holes dug that might have been used to draw such circles,


They were actually hacked out in the bedrock stone material, and not dug, which word, in my mind, connects to sand and not rock.

This is a drawing of the "pump" holes, surrounding the levelled Great Pyramid base platform with the core on top of it :



The author contemplates that these holes were used to put poles in, for measurement purposes.

I proposed the use of them as pump plunger housings, since I would never needed such fat holes for measuring, just a tiny diameter hole for a thin branch to tie a thin rope to, would have sufficed.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 08:45 PM
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but I referenced to posts in the ONLY thread I ever posted to in this specific forum (section as you call it), and in my opinion, if one is truly interested, they will and should read offered references, especially these, it cost me a lot of research and the links in there are worth every minute it took me to find them.
It took me actually a full week of research, with ample sleep since I got quite exited by the subject at hand. See :

And please don't fall into the "I posted this before and I don't want to repeat myself" mindset! Remember that there will be many people who haven't read your previous posts, who would like to see the supporting material. This section really serves to educate a lot of people who may not be reading other sections.


In any sane discussion, I expect my serious readers to read my references, otherwise we are not at the same speaking terms.
It cost us more time to repeat the same reasoning, than time we could spent on a sound discussion.
Sorry for the rambling, as a present another ref :
www.touregypt.net...
Egypt: Building and construction in Ancient Egypt.

It contains a lot of recent essays, with some fairly new insights.
Have fun reading and learning about the latests theories.

I read your links, all of them, and Marduk's and some other serious posters, in that second pyramid thread from Mondogiwa which you moved to another forum (Skunk Works perhaps?), in which you and Marduk gave quite a lot of good links, but I can't find it any more.
The one you and Marduk doubted his credentials as an anthropologist.
I liked the links, but had no time to bookmark them, otherwise I would have linked to the photo of the Temple site with the huge perfectly grinded stones.

In that thread you or Marduk gave a link to a Temple site, in which I saw a photo of a reddish temple wall made of huge stone blocks, without a roof, in which you could see 2 immense stone blocks perfectly fit together, the right one was J shaped, and the left one a square block, slightly lower in height, but it fitted neatly in the short leg of the J shaped block. So tight that you can't get a knife blade between them. And both tops were perfectly aligned.

That's why I thought the ancient Egyptians used water to grind these two blocks into each other, so long first till the tops were level, and then till the adjacent walls were smoothly fitting. Then the third next stone would be rubbed against the second one until both sides fitted, etcetera.

This they probably also used to grind only the outer ring blocks of each step of the pyramids, to get a watertight connection.
Only the outer blocks were so well fitting, the inner core blocks were much less fitting, better said plain roughly put together, with a lot of debris and sand in between, as you can read in my link from above named 'Source' :
www.touregypt.net...



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by LaBTop
The author contemplates that these holes were used to put poles in, for measurement purposes.

I proposed the use of them as pump plunger housings, since I would never needed such fat holes for measuring, just a tiny diameter hole for a thin branch to tie a thin rope to, would have sufficed.


I find that a bit hard to swallow (that they're pump holes.) Would you give some citation on what kind of pumps they were actually using at the time?

And... although YOU would have "never used such fat holes for measuring purposes", what references do you see that indicate they would not be used for lining up the pyramid?



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by LaBTop
In that thread you or Marduk gave a link to a Temple site, in which I saw a photo of a reddish temple wall made of huge stone blocks, without a roof, in which you could see 2 immense stone blocks perfectly fit together, the right one was J shaped, and the left one a square block, slightly lower in height, but it fitted neatly in the short leg of the J shaped block. So tight that you can't get a knife blade between them. And both tops were perfectly aligned.


Yes, that was my link.


That's why I thought the ancient Egyptians used water to grind these two blocks into each other, so long first till the tops were level, and then till the adjacent walls were smoothly fitting. Then the third next stone would be rubbed against the second one until both sides fitted, etcetera.


Far too cumbersome! Those things weighed a ton or more!

There's pictures of stone grinding work and evidence of slabbing saws at work (along with finding those saws).
www.gizabuildingproject.com...

Rather than attempt to rub stones together, they used pounding and polishing/abrading with sand:
nefertiti.iwebland.com...

And they had some fairly standard carpentry tools such as levels and plumbs.

Here's a picture of one of their funearary pieces that depicts a craftsmans workshop. Notice that it's really kind of a small factory:
homepage.powerup.com.au...



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 06:37 PM
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Concerning the tight fit joints between blocks, I refer everyone to the amazingly tight joints in the stone block structures created by the Incas. Some of them are at the tops of mountains and no way could they have been fitted in place in the water/flood method. Stone masonry is an old skill and a good craftsman can make a superb joint, in massive blocks. While these are not in Egypt, they are worth considering in relation to this thread.

Inca Stone Masonry

Massive stones of considerable weight; Joints so tight you can not slip a playing card inbetween the stones; Hard granite, not soft limestone; And not made in a flooded river plain. If the Incans could have done this using only stone tools, then the Egyptians could have done it also without resorting to flooding massive areas. I see no evidence that flooding was required to make the Pyramids.
Just my two cents. I'd like change back please.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 10:30 PM
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First some factual information from various sources :



An impression of the size of the lower blocks.

touregypt.net...
The measurements taken by Petrie, a great Egyptologist from the 1800th.

Second, some thougts of mine :
Source :

The descending passage led only to a subterranean chamber. This descending passage that leads down is set at a 26 degree angle that descends down 345 feet (105m) into the earth under the pyramid. The passageway is only 3'6" (1.1m) wide and 3'11" (1.2m) high. The chamber is closed to the public. The chamber itself is a room that measures about 46' x 27'1" x 11'6" (14 x 8.3 x 3.5m). There is a passage that leads 100 feet horizontally to the western side. The purpose of the pit is uncertain. It is possible that it could have been the burial chamber, but after a change of plan, it was abandoned.


touregypt.net...



Could the purpose of the lowest chamber, dug into the rock beneith the base platform of the Great Pyramid have been to first dig a water well?
I strongly believe so. Men need water first when working hard during all daylight !
How is it possible that not one Egyptologist has thought about this most basic need of us humans.
Remember, the level of the Nile 5,000 yrs ago was substantially higher (see my above posts about the dried out lake recently discovered where the builders quarried their basalt blocks), and even much higher during the seasonal floods during the months from July to November each year. Which was the exact period that the bulk of the pyramid workers was employed. The rest of the year's months, a much lower amount of workers would have been contained at the pyramids, to perform much needed refinement work and preparations for the next flooding season.
This well at site, will then have been perhaps also, the source for the filling up of each artificial outer block lake at each next level constructed.
The thin black line going up from near the underground well chamber to the Great Chamber could have been a clay pipe corridor, extended up to every new higher level.
The pit chamber could have been a pumping station, beside its use as a workers water well.

www.touregypt.net...

Another theory is that it was built by peasants who were unable to work the land while the Nile flooded between July and November. They may have been paid with food for their labor. The flooded waters would have also aided in the moving of the casing stones. These stones were brought from Aswan and Tura and the water would have brought the stones right to the pyramid. This pyramid is thought to have been built between 2589 - 2566 BC. It would have taken over 2,300,000 blocks of stone with an average weight of 2.5 tons each. The total weight would have been 6,000,000 tons and a height of 482 feet (140m). It is the largest and the oldest of the Pyramids of Giza.
The base of the pyramid is 754 feet [230m] and covers 13 acres.


Note:Lately it is unveiled that the actual amount of stones were nearly half as much, and most of the inner core stones, especially higher up, were much smaller and weighted less than advertized above.
See Petrie's block measures for every level, a foldout page at the back of his book. :
touregypt.net... (a big one)
It were 4 drawing pages. Plate 8b and 8d are missing, 8c is there :
touregypt.net...



Obviously, Petrie was a meticulous precise man, the first layer of outer blocks was about 60 inches (1.542m) high (1inch= 2.54cm), the second layer was 54 inches high (1.37m), the third was 48 inches high (1.22m) and the rest quickly declined in height, as you can see in Petrie's drawing.
Layer 35 was suddenly again 50 inches high (1.27m)
Perhaps that's where they switched to the dry method.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 10:54 PM
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I wanted to address the extremely tight joints later on, and also the Inca ones in harder stone.
As you have now addressed it, I would like to point at the joints between the Grand Gallery blocks :

www.touregypt.net...

Grand Gallery. The gallery is 157 feet (48m) long and 28 feet (8.5m) high and is at the same 26 degree angle as the passages. The roof of the gallery is corbelled. It is said that not a piece of paper or a needle can be inserted between the stones making up the roof. The gallery is only 62 inches (1.6m) wide at the bottom and is only 41 inches (1m) wide at the top of the incline.


If you visit a grave yard stone mason these days, you will see his use of water to grind 2 stones together, to get such a tight fit.

Of course the flooding was not needed to achieve the same effect, the flooding as I propose, is to facilitate the transport of building blocks on small thin wooden or papyrus reet floats around in an artificial lake of to begin with, 230 x 230 meters! That's 52,900 square meters!
To fill that up needs a lot of time, but the ancients had much more patience then we are used to in modern times.

The grinding into place of various blocks is just an additional feature of this method.

I have always been amazed by the Inca temples stone masonry. and I don't believe the tight joints can be achieved by precise mason work on individual blocks.
It could only been done in those days, without electricity and lathes, by grinding 2 surfaces onto each other, with the help of minute amount of water.
Not a lot of water is needed. Only constant wetting of the grinding joint, to transport the grinding powder out of the to be fixed joint.
This is the only way known to me to achieve such tight joints without modern aids.
And handling these huge blocks is not so difficult as most think, in that thread I hinted at to Byrd, a film was posted about a guy who single handed moved multiple ton blocks, with the sole aid of some clever levers or clamps from wood. A real eyeopening film.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 10:58 PM
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Remember that this is a research area, not a speculation area. Can you provide a source for how you know what an ancient Egyptian architect would have done?


They can't tell us anymore, and their notes on papyrus are not available anymore, 5,000 yrs have wrecked all ev. existing paper sources. And the Alexandrian Library where we perhaps could have found some manuscripts from the Great Pyramids era, was burned down long ago.
There are some scribblings in slates and in and on other stone artifacts, but they were clearly meant more as artworks than as meticulous book keeping. The real architectural writings will have been on papyrus rolls.
We can however try to imagine how a modern architect will solve the same problems if challenged to work with the same tools and materials. And yes, that is some sort of speculation, but not a wild guess however.
If we seriously implement our todays knowledge about the ancient Egyptians tools and resources, we can come close to the truth of it.


What kind of underwater equipment were they using?


They didn't need any. Look up the size of the lower levels blocks above. The grinding worker gangs worked on top of the outer blocks, while the filler blocks moving gangs only stood in the water which came up to their wasts, to work the stones. Because after leveling all the outer ring blocks, they lowered the water level to a height, which kept the barges with the blocks, which were moved around to their various positions, just floating.
First they would flood the open space totally with water, untill the first water would pass over the lowest stone block.

And here is the huge advantage : they now had the best water-level at hand, known at that time, to keep their pyramid steps perfectly leveled.

All the higher up pyramid-step levels would be perfectly level also, up till the level where they had to stop using this water level method for labour-economic reasons.
No need for complicated mathematics, the pyramid builders simply grinded the top of all the outer ring blocks down to the level of the lowest block, and their outer ring of building blocks would be perfectly level. All the while during grinding work, the pumpers would keep pumping small amounts of water up in the "lake", and the surplus would keep streaming away over the lowest block's rim.
And the same goes for all the higher pyramid step levels.
They would stop using this artificial lake method combined with massive ramps, when they reached an equilibrium between total labour needed for the "lake" method, and total labour needed when switching to the dry method, at about 2/3rd height, with see-saws and small ramps. Probably they had to stop earlier, depending on the method they used for their pumping, use of buckets etc.
The architect would have chosen pumps on every step of the pyramid, to transport water up multiple levels, thus needing the lowest pressure in his clay pipes.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by LaBTop
How is it possible that not one Egyptologist has thought about this most basic need of us humans.


You're making a false assumption, there. In fact, they know a lot about how food and water was put there because of the titles of the workers (Carrier of Water) and other material. Building a picture of civilization from archaeological material includes investigating what made it possible for them to live and work in that area.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 07:59 PM
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"Carrier of Water" doesn't implement "from where".
Could be just as well from a well.
I know from other research fairly well how big the worker settlements were at the pyramids, and the huge bakeries and meat and fish factories, to feed the worker masses.

I expected you to contemplate on the idea of the deepest chamber to be constructed as a well, and hoped to get a discussion started on the 150 meter deep position of it, since I do not see that depicted in the Petrie drawing above.
It looks more like 60 meter, since we know the height of that pyramid, 240 meter.

And why the horizontal corridor was hacked out to the left of it for about 30 meter length, then ending in a dead end.
Were they trying to find a new water artery?

Also I would like to discuss my proposal of ancient Nile river beds much closer to the Giza Plateau, and the much higher seasonal flooding.
Can we find any geological surveys regarding this thesis?
Aerial photography from the region, ground radar photo's, infra red photo's (wet soil gives away former river beds). Clay and sand deposits will indicate former river beds, etc.

I fairly well realize how far fetched inundation of the first layers of a pyramid sounds for the laymen reader. However, I am used to this kind of out the box thinking, since I come from a line of men threatened by water every now and then, and then you get a damn deep respect for the possible effects water can have for your tribe. It's anchored "in your blood", just as it was "in the blood" of the Egyptians, before the Assuan Dam Project.
However, you also learn to use the force and help of water for your own benefit.

I can't imagine ancient Egyptians not having found solutions for facilitating transport of water horizontally and vertically.
They must have devoted quite some time to that problem.

And there are many inventions forgotten in time, to be re-invented hundreds and thousands years later again.
I don't think Archimedes was the first one to invent the water screw, for instance.
That, and water wheels with buckets, and simple pumps will have submerged in the mind of the ancients, when challenged with the same problems.

They will have recorded their ideas, but if it was solely on paper sources, it can't have survived the teeth of Time.

[edit on 25/1/07 by LaBTop]



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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Source Post nr 10
(Please propose numbering of thread posts to your administrators, it will greatly reduce that irritating quoting/repeating of whole posts, and anyone can remember a post number they want to reference to, but when you are in the post window, you can't copy that long "this post" url, it's not there anymore)

LT : That's why I thought the ancient Egyptians used water to grind these two blocks into each other, so long first till the tops were level, and then till the adjacent walls were smoothly fitting. Then the third next stone would be rubbed against the second one until both sides fitted, etcetera.

Byrd : Far too cumbersome! Those things weighed a ton or more!

LT now:
You're making a false assumption, there. In fact, in all engineering branches, the first thing you try is to let the weight of an object do most of the task at hand.
You will be surprised to see how easy it is to rub a one ton stone over another one ton stone, if you use f.i. some whetted slate powder, carborundum powder etc. in between.
And of course you take advantage of the aid of a wooden clamp with a long pole on top, so two workers can easily move the upper stone.
Or any number of clamps and workers extra, to move much heavier stones.
Or any other idea, I have more of them.

Byrd : There's pictures of stone grinding work and evidence of slabbing saws at work (along with finding those saws).
www.gizabuildingproject.com...

Rather than attempt to rub stones together, they used pounding and polishing/abrading with sand:
nefertiti.iwebland.com...

LT now : That's mostly work in quarries, I think the actual refining work at the pyramids was done my proposed way.

Byrd : And they had some fairly standard carpentry tools such as levels and plumbs.

Here's a picture of one of their funerary pieces that depicts a crafts mans workshop. Notice that it's really kind of a small factory:
homepage.powerup.com.au...

LT now : As you can see clearly in that miniature, it is a workshop solely used for wood working and small stone working, like hollow out of vases and cutting and sawing of small stone objects.
The preparing of already quarried huge stone blocks was done on site, just like the medieval stone masons prepared the pillars for the cathedrals they build.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 10:05 PM
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LT : He first found out that limestone sucks up reasonable amounts of water, if not protected by a thin layer of wet clay.

Byrd : Tell us about your research here -- what sources you found that tell you that he did this. Can you point to some examples of watertight structures that were built this way by ancient Egyptians?

LT now : The dikes they build in the flood plains, the canals in the sand, lined with clay, dams to keep the water in the flooded lakes after the Nile retracted in its winter bed, the Osiris temple where the floor slabs still keep the water after rain. Under them must be a layer of clay to get this effect, since the bedrock under it is limestone which easily sucks up rain water. The floor is build from raised blocks with lower slabs under them, which forms small ponds which originally kept water. Probably they planted their sacred water plants in there.
The temple has no roof anymore nowadays, so rain and sunshine can come in freely. That's why rain water stays on the floor today. I'll find you a picture of it. It was buried under sand before they found it btw. It's excavated, but the former roof line is level with the surface sand now.
---------------------------

Byrd : Which of the 110+ pyramids in Egypt show this kind of evidence and are there other temples and monuments in Egypt that show this same kind of construction?

LT now : I concentrated on the Gizah pyramids, so that's only a few to consider now. No one to my knowledge ever proposed this possible construction method, so there will be no specific evidence in the annals of Egyptology. But we know lately that the inner layers of every level of the Great Pyramid were filled with fairly rough blocks with much less precise fit, compared to the outer "skin". And were stuffed with a lot of bits and pieces of broken stones and a lot of sandy material. (see touregypt pages)
Of course that can also be an effect of 5,000 yrs of earthquakes, sandstorms, time related wear and inner pressure of the total weight of upper layers onto lower layers, and not to forget the hands of all the curious men and women living after the pyramid builders.
It will be quite difficult for me to proof from behind my keyboard that dust and sand inside the pyramid also contains traces of Nile clay. Even for a researcher at site it will be a very difficult task, since dr. Awass doesn't like intruder actions upon the inner workings of the pyramids, based upon so many years of chaotic and ruining actions of early 1800 and 1900th "scientists".
---------------------------

LT quote: As we know by now, through ground radar tests, the centre of the floor space was an elevated massive natural mount of limestone, and this greatly reduced the amount of water needed, for the first one third of the total height of the, yet to be constructed pyramid.


Byrd : We need to know more about this as it's backed up by artifacts and sites. Link?

LT now : Petrie pyramid plus chambers drawing up there. And the ground radar test results I read before somewhere, I'll find it back and report later, I think it was in that German site from the other thread link by me. Same one with the carbon dating results.
---------------------------

LT quote: He first ordered canals to be digged from the nearby Nile to the base of the Gizah plateau, so he caught 2 flies in one strike :


Byrd : Could you point to your research that shows evidence of the canals and their length?

LT now : I found one in a link you gave in that lost thread, do you know where that thread is now ? The length was not given, but it stated that an architect, probably Imhotep ordered canals to be dug.
---------------------------

LT quote: This was easily achieved by the boats man, tare-ing the total weight with a range of standardized small limestone tare stones he took with him during every delivery.
The heaviest blocks needed no tare stones, the lightest blocks needed the biggest tare stones.
These were placed on heaps on both sides of the "loading dock" corners, to be chosen from.

Byrd : Do you have a map of the plateau and its area that shows the field of leftover "tare stones"? Remember, this is a research section, and we want to look over the evidence.

LT now : They probably used just rocks laying around, with varying sizes, and used them later to fill up spaces in the inner core, or just threw them away. You will not recognize them as tare stones, they're just rocks.
---------------------------

Lt quote: Then they constructed the next layer, smeared the bottom and the sides again with a thin layer of wet clay, and performed the same operation, and so on, until they reached about one third of the ultimate height of the pyramid.

Byrd : I'm not familiar with any material that shows the presence of clay between the blocks or clay and silt in the lower chambers, which were built before the pyramid was finished. Could you cite a source, please?

LT now : same answer as just above, no one will have looked for it.
---------------------------

LT quote: One observed fact to substantiate this thesis is the presence of the so called huge "sand chambers" inside the pyramid, also discovered by the recent ground radar tests. Perhaps they are remnants of a mix of washed out clay and grinded down limestone.

Byrd : What do you know about the texture and composition of the sand in the chambers? Clay silt has a very distinct profile, and so do rocks. Could you link to a good source on the material in the sand chambers?
I didn't find any link, but I didn't look hard. Do you have a source for the texture of the material?

LT now : I hope you see the problem, we can't physically handle or test the material in those chambers, they are deep inside the pyramid.
And I don't know yet if the radar tests also included a USGS material data test.
---------------------------
LT quote: Which offers perhaps another explanation of the existing small square shaped passages...

Byrd : ...could you point to the passages that slope down and out of the pyramid rather than down and into the King's Chamber and Queen's Chamber?
Or if you're not talking about the Great Pyramid, could you link to the other pyramids that have these exit shafts pointing down and out of the pyramid?

LT now : used the (3rd) word "perhaps".
---------------------------

This is a thought exercise.
This is a conspiracy board, and a forum of it.
Not one conspiracy in these forums is been proven without doubt, yet.
Bare with us.
For the time being.



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 10:59 PM
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www.touregypt.net...

This is the temple with the ponds :




Monolithic blocks of the Osireion.


The structure was built in an excavation in the sandy clay stratum of the desert, with almost vertical sides. Two parallel limestone walls running over the eastern room of the structure served as retaining walls for the sand bed upon which the temple was built. The foundations is cut many feet below the current level of the water table.
-snip-
A channel about three meters across then surrounds this island. It contained water and thus the interior of this structure was symbolic of the primeval waters of creation from which an island arose. At either end of the island stairways lead down into he water channel about 3.5 meters.


It was build upon a sand bed. But rain water keeps standing.
Watertight construction. Clay under it, I suppose. Can't go to check yet.
Can see the water now. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Another interesting fact :



Please take note of the Absolution Wells.


The temple, in the shape of an L, once had a landing quay, a ramp,---


Another indication of higher levels of the river Nile some 4 to 5,000 yrs ago.


One approaches the temple through its outer courts, now ruined but with the huge tanks for the absolution of the temple's priest still visible. This was the first temple we know of in Egypt that incorporated these structures.


Tanks need to be watertight. They had lots of clay delivered in front of the doorstep.

This structure was was begun by Seti I and finished by his son, the great Ramesses II. In fact, this structure built of fine white limestone is actually one of the most impressive religious structures in Egypt.
It is thus from a later period, when the Judeans were enslaved in Egypt, but we may assume that water tightening was still not forgotten.

I still remember the story of the reet basket, watertighted with clay, which held Mozes, when he was picked up by the Princess and her slaves when he drifted past on the Nile.

[edit on 25/1/07 by LaBTop]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 12:15 AM
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www.touregypt.net...


the nomarchs often enlarged and embellished their provincial capitals, from which they supervised the maintenance of irrigation canals and dams, the local distribution of the Nile water---


Proof of knowledge of watertight dams and irrigation canals, where they for sure used clay deposits from the Nile.




The number of provinces in Upper Egypt seems to have been constant from the Old Kingdom onwards, whereas the number and position of the provinces in Lower Egypt varied, growing over time as marshes were converted to cultivated land and as the river branches of the Nile Delta shifted over the centuries.


Giza is situated nowadays just south of the huge Nile Delta.



When the level of the Nile was higher 5,000 yrs ago, the Delta would have been spread more south. Which gives more weight to a Nile branch passing in front of the Giza Plateau. It will have been one of the factors for the architects to propose the plateau to their Pharaoh's as a new construction site for their burial tombs or artifacts.

Here is a map of the Giza pyramids and an aerial of them :





Here is a link to the Khafre pyramid data, with again lately discovered facts, that the inner core of this pyramid was also build over a big limestone knoll and that there was a Nile canal and drain at the foot of the Giza plateau :

www.touregypt.net...


The temple was fronted on the east by a large terrace paved with limestone slabs, through which two causeways led from the Nile canal. Just about in the middle of the terrace, fragments of what may have been a small, simple, wood and matting structure was unearthed that may have been the location of a statue depicting Khafre. However, others believe that this was a tent used for purification purposes, though known examples of such a structure are only found in a few private tombs.

In 1995, Zahi Hawass re-cleared the area in front of the Valley temple and in doing so, discovered that the causeways passed over tunnels that were framed with mudbrick walls and paved with limestone. These tunnels have a slightly convex profile resembling that of a boat. They formed a narrow corridor or canal running north-south. In front of the Sphnix Temple, the canal runs into a drain leading northeast, probably to a quay buried below the modern tourist plaza.

The causeways connected the Nile canal with two separate entrances on the Valley temple facade that were sealed by huge, single-leaf doors probably made of cedar wood and hung on copper hinges. Each of these doorways were protected by a recumbent Sphinx.


The limestone core knoll :


However, modern scholars with considerable expertise on this pyramid, such as Lehner, doubt this assumption. Like the pyramid of Khufu and others in Egypt, Khafre's structure takes advantage of a rock outcropping to both increase the stability of its core, as well as to conserve the amount of necessary building materials needed for its construction. In fact, the lowest levels of its southwest corner are actually hacked out of the rock subsoil. The bedrock surface to the northwest had to be cut down some 10 meters by its ancient builders, while the southeast corner had to be built up using mammoth blocks of masonry. However, by far the substance of the pyramid core is made up of locally quarried limestone blocks of approximately equal height. Nearby to the north of they pyramid, one may still clearly see the traces of how these blocks were quarried. The blocks were not laid with the care that was given to the core of Khufu's pyramid, for the layers do not always run exactly horizontally, and the joints are at times very wide. Often, there is no mortar between the blocks. In fact, because the four corner angles were not quite aligned correctly to meet the pyramid apex, there is a very slight twist at the top.


Seismic activity over the thousands of years :


However, because it is clear that the remaining casing is eroding, recent investigations by Italian experts have shown that the remaining corner edges of the mantle are not completely straight. Individual blocks are slightly turned in various directions. An analysis of this peculiarity suggests that this was the result of seismic activity. Small earthquakes were not uncommon in ancient Egypt, as they are likewise known to occur in modern times.


Indication of a much more humid area than the arid dessert we see now :


However, later work by Lehner and Hawass seem to suggest that that this facility, rather than a settlement, was instead a storehouse as well as the workshops for the pyramid complex. Interestingly, the great number of mollusk shells that were found here also suggest that the surrounding area was, rather than arid desert as it is today, a kind of savanna with the corresponding flora and fauna.


So there was much more water around the building sites then now.


The Great Sphinx

Outside perimeter walls may have extended around the entire Khafre pyramid complex, including within it the great Sphinx. Close study by geologist Thomas Aigner of the geological layers of the Sphinx show that it was closely related to the quarrying and building of the Khafre complex.

Hence, there is some indication that it was a part of Khafre's pyramid complex. However, the latter is by no means certain, so here we have avoided the issue for the time being, electing rather to discuss the Great Sphinx separately.


We shall also refrain from commenting on this revelation, it's a subject for a whole new thread.


[edit on 26/1/07 by LaBTop]

[edit on 26/1/07 by LaBTop]




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