To Spank Or Not To Spank

It seems to me chissler that you somehow equate a smack on the butt as punishment and abuse. A smack on the butt or hand is not punishment, it is an attention getter when simply talking doesn't work, or an effective way to focus the child's attention on what you are saying when they don't want to listen or are too preoccuppied with something else to pay attention. Repeatedly smacking a child on the butt is spanking. Spanking is seldom needed with most children and never with some. When you spank a child you don't hit them hard enough to raise welts or leave bruises (that would be abuse), you simply smack them enough to get their undivided attention and make them realize you are serious. If you have to spank a child more than a very few times as they grow up then you are probably doing something wrong in the parenting department.

I have seen parents that repeatedly spank their children and all I can say is most of them just did not give their children enough attention, affection, love, etc. It seemed like they just didn't want to be bothered being a good parent or with the children at all. People like that shouldn't have had children to begin with as the kids are going to grow up badly and end up being a problem for society later.

Originally posted by stumason
She stopped crying (after some snivelling) and walked home. She even apologised for being naughty when we got back and gave me a hug.

I'm glad it worked for you. But it is teaching your child that sometimes it is appropriate to give a little "smack" from time to time. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I am saying there are far greater ways to deal with it.

Originally posted by stumason
May I suggest you actually have kids before lecturing others on how to bring up theirs? It's all very well "working with problem kids" (I have done the same when I was younger), but that is not the same as dealing with your own from the age of 0-18, every day of their lives, is it?

Actually, No. This is a "Discussion" board. I am highly opinionated on the subject and I feel I am within my own right to express them. If you feel I am attempting to step on your belieifs, I apologize, because that is not my attentions. We all have our opinions, my intentions are to merely bring light to the situation at hand and discuss alternative approaches for parents to take.

If your "smack" serves your purpose, by all means.

If you reread my previous posts, you will see that I actually disagree with this piece of legislation.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
When you spank a child you don't hit them hard enough to raise welts or leave bruises (that would be abuse)

So if you don't leave a mark, it isn't abuse?

Before I delve into this comment too much, I will wait for a follow up from the member.

Originally posted by stumason
Ahh, now it comes to him telling me how to raise my kid without even knowing me! Haha, expected, I suppose.

You know, when I typed that.. I actually had you in mind. ...Right. I love those little digs.

Originally posted by stumason
As I said, you can reason till your blue in the face, but if the child knows this is all your going to do, then, pray tell, what exactly else have you got in your arsenal to isntill behaviour?

Well, my "arsenal" would change from child to child. You need to evaluate each child and determine what this child craves. If it is their favorite television show, you take it from them if they misbehave. Insert time outs at home with a chair and a clock. Like you said, I can reason until I'm blue in the face, but none of it matters unless individuals are willing to try. You believe your approach is effective, and I wholeheartedly agree that it probably is. But it is MY opinion, that alternatives may be more effective in the short and long term.

Originally posted by stumason
Paper tiger, my friend.

Spend 5 minutes and read all of my posts. You can see there is no "paper tiger" about this whatsoever. Quite the opposite actually.

Originally posted by stumason
However, if they know that if they continue to escalate, the punishment will get worse, this instills in them a sense of behaviour and a dislike of pushing the ante.

Do you realize you rare criticizing me, while posting the same message as I am? I've said that we need to continue to further the process if they do not begin to behave appropriately. Escalate does not equate physical abuse.

Originally posted by stumason
In contrast, her cousin, who's mother (apart from being a Benefist scrounger....) uses the tactics you elicit, is possibly the worst behaved child I have seen in a long time, as she is fully aware that no serious punishment is ever coming her way.

Exactly. If we are not consistent, then the child is going to run hogwild. If you believe in spanking the child, at least be consistent with it.

I'm not attempting to judge you, or anyone else here, I am merely expressing my opinions on the subject with happen to be a different approach. Anyone who feels I am "judging" their parenting tactics, well your construing my words to suit your needs.


[edit on 23-1-2007 by chissler]

chissler

Children and parents has been in this earth since man walk the earth, we are still here and we will be here after our time of children, parents and grandparents is over.

Get it.

Spanking is not new and it will no go away. Children are just getting worst as society try to take away the role of the parental unit and their jobs.

It is dangerous times we are facing when the government wants to tell us how to deal with our own children, while jailing parents for disciplining their children.

I wonder if next we women will deliver the babies and the state will keep them unto they are over 4 years of age to make sure that they are not spanked.

You are making the whole issue look like spanking is new and something of our generations.

Guess what it is nooot.

Children of today with all the stupid laws to protect them, while some are necessary they are making Children challenge authority.

If you think children are strong willed wait when they turn teens and that is when the lessons of the early years will dictate how well they will be in their formative years of adolescent.

I know I been there and have deal with it.

Well said Marg, if a child learns early that it can do as it please, it'll only get amplified with age.

Not to get Medieval or anything but didn't the bible say, "Spare the rod and spoil the child?" Now I'm not advocating "beating" a child, I lived through that and it had dire consequenses but "spanking" a child is a different thing. It shows them there are consequenses to behavior that is bad for them. Better to learn that early, with minimal dicipline than later, say, like a cop shooting them.

Side note: NEVER spank your kids in anger. That's sending the wrong message and could actually harm them.

Was a spanking indicated here?

3 year old Girl Kicked Off Plane After Tantrum

The parents said they needed more time to calm her down.
Reasoning, or spanking? I wonder which would have worked in this case?

I agree intrepid.

One thing is a cute littler baby then the toddler, this are the years that children learn who is the authority.

But when the toddler goes from child to teen, that is when parents learn that the beautiful littler cute once a baby then a strong willed toddler is not longer malleable, it has a mind of its own and the hormones to match.

And the real parental challenge begin. without an early beginning base of respect to parental authority you either win the teen battler or lose you child.

Hard times the teen age years, by then spanking, tap in the butt is a thing of the past, discipline and control falls in deaf ears.

And beating, slapping and smacking is abuse.

Originally posted by marg6043
It is dangerous times we are facing when the government wants to tell us how to deal with our own children, while jailing parents for disciplining their children.

Here is my dilemma.

I continue to say how I am openly against this legislation. I do not wish to see the government intervene on issues which are strictly between the parent and child. The government would be in tough to govern this new legislation, and I overtly oppose it.

However, I do believe there are several ways we can approach behaviour modification without having to resort to "spanking" a child. This belief of mine has opened the door to some ridicule. Comes with the territory, and I enjoy the discussion. But I wish to make it clear, I do oppose what this Democrat has proposed. I just believe parents can resort to simple tactics which do not include spanking.

My opinions on behaviour modification are apparently clouding the fact that I am in agreement with you marg. The government has no business poking it's nose in places it does not belong. I am well aware that spanking is not a new trend, but as we evolve, I believe the "possible" effects of spanking are beginning to surface.

Again, I disagree with this legislation. Merely have a difference in opinion on behaviour modification.

Thank you.

Originally posted by chissler

Again, I disagree with this legislation. Merely have a difference in opinion on behavior modification.

Thank you.

You use of words remind me of when I was taking child psychology in college, I had not idea then what it took to raise children.

But I survived with great results.

I agree Chissler legislation is not the right way to take care of problems specially when they are targeting the parental choices.

What works for you and work for me is great as long as we get the same results.

But as a parental choice. the rest is just a matter of opinion.

depends on if she likes it or not

Originally posted by intrepid
Side note: NEVER spank your kids in anger. That's sending the wrong message and could actually harm them.

That is one point that should be never too far from our minds. Spanking can be effective on a short-term basis, if done appropriately. Spanking your child in a fit of rage is teaching him/her all of the wrong things.

Parents who do this, I believe are guilty of a criminal behaviour. Spanking in a fit of rage is child abuse.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by intrepid
Side note: NEVER spank your kids in anger. That's sending the wrong message and could actually harm them.

That is one point that should be never too far from our minds. Spanking can be effective on a short-term basis, if done appropriately. Spanking your child in a fit of rage is teaching him/her all of the wrong things.

Parents who do this, I believe are guilty of a criminal behaviour. Spanking in a fit of rage is child abuse.

I agree but what is your view on pressure points?

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by intrepid
Side note: NEVER spank your kids in anger. That's sending the wrong message and could actually harm them.

That is one point that should be never too far from our minds. Spanking can be effective on a short-term basis, if done appropriately. Spanking your child in a fit of rage is teaching him/her all of the wrong things.

Parents who do this, I believe are guilty of a criminal behaviour. Spanking in a fit of rage is child abuse.

I agree but what is your view on pressure points?

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
I agree but what is your view on pressure points?

Pressure points gives me the serious impression it is a small form of torture. I do not condone any sort of physical contact with the child, but it is an ongoing debate with spanking. But pressure points, I see little positive coming from them. Just my opinion though.

If parents feel their approach work, and do not see any long-term effects coming from it, well power to you.

It is your decision to make.

I am part of the generation that grew up being spanked and I am from the south which meant if I got in trouble I had to go down and cut my own switch, and it better be a good one.

I really don't think that spanking your child is all that big of a deal. Doing it too often can be but not spanking when it is deserved.

AND I am an old hippie liberal

Originally posted by chissler
Why would we ever condone physical abuse? To display dominance? To teach the child it is ok to strike another?

Radekus, you say that this is acceptable. Lets say you have a daughter, now this daughter has just found a new boyfriend. To teach her some manners and respect, he likes to smack her around. Is that acceptable? No. It is not. We expect them to deal with issues through words, not fists. This double standard that it is ok for parents to strike children but not for children to strike their peers, or lovers, is absolutely ridiculous.

Grant it, I don't think parents should be fined or thrown in jail, but they should be forced to take some sort of training to educate them on how to properly handle these situations.

If parents would spend one day listening to very basic techniques, they would realize how absurd it is to strike their child. Not to mention the damage they are inflicting.

It is never good to strike a child.

Umm, yes, it's acceptable, if she's an idiot, I wouldn't mind her boyfriend smacking her a bit, but to a reasonable degree, I don't condone physical punishment when it gets out of hand though, I'd brobably smash his face in if my girl had visible bruises.
Oh please, I was beaten as a child, were you? Being beaten teaches the child that there's things that he/she cannot control. The fact they're getting beats and there's nothing they can do about it makes the more compashinate. I rather prefer a society of beaten but caring people, than a bounch of big mouthed idiots who don't think twice before opening those said mouths (present day society). Beats teach consequence, if that is not learned you get alot of narcisism, people screw people over without a second's hesitation. I agree on the fact that parents should talk with their kids. My strategy would be to talk it over, use logic. If the kid uses tantrums and behaves like an idiot a smack is in order.

By the way, I'm 19.

Originally posted by chissler

I fail to see the difference. Striking is abuse, yes I agree. A smack in the butt, this is not striking? Whether it is a little slap, or a closed fist, both are acts of physical violence towards the child.

No apples and oranges here, they are one in the same.

I'll smack you accross the head, then I'll punch you, I wonder if you'll notice the difference...

Originally posted by chissler
There is no "American" about this. Pure Canadian my friend.

What of the child that is faced with physical punishment and still does not care? We assume that the child is actually afraid of the physical beat down the parent is about to lay on them. What if they are not?

Are you serious? Have you ever been spanked?

Originally posted by chissler
Now if you make a stride and attempt to reinforce this positive behaviour with no success, then you rework the program and try again. If it is not working, it is because the variables are not effective. Remove something that the child needs. Do not threaten anything. Empty threats are completely useless and only undermine the parent.

I agree, the best my father used was a combination of physical with emotional. Made me the man I am today. If a kid is not resposive with the physical, use emotional. A combination of both is usually highly effective. I'm personally just sadenned and sick of all the spoiled brats I see all around me when I walk down the street. The fact that the government is interfering with parent's ways of bringing their kids up has this as a consequence. a Bounch of carless narcistic sheepole.

Originally posted by chissler
It's like the small child in the candy store. "I want, I want, I want!" Maybe before entering the store, you could of warned the child of the behaviour you expect, and if they abide by it, they will receive a small reward for it. Your not punishing their bad behaviour, you are attempting to reinforce a positive behaviour. If they fail to abide by this code, they do not get the reward and you instill the proper punishment.

You're not serious? you're teaching the kid that everytime they'll do something good they'll get a reward, that's idiotic, it doesn't prepare them for the real world, in the real world, you don't just not get the reward, you get screwed, what better way to educate Timmy than the reward of not geting a smack? I though that was good reason for me to obey my parents.

Originally posted by chissler
The process itself is very simple. The problem is actually sticking to it and not letting up. Slipping up once will leave every effort a complete waste. A child needs to know that the parent is in charge. Sadly, we feel that physical punishment is the only way a parent can show their dominance.

What are you gonna do when they have tantrums in the middle of a store? Keep asking them politely to stop? That's how you teach them that they can get away with it. And promising and then giving a reward when they do makes them more suseptible to have tantrums, cuz they know that if they stop they'll get rewarded.

Another one here who grew up with spankings and even a few beatings.

When I was in my teens I said I'd never spank my kids, that's so mean..blah..blah..blah...
as a I got older and actually had kids, and tried the different behavior modification methods, I have come to the realization that spanking is a very effective and necessary method to add to your list as a parent.

With children, there can be no one or singular method for dealing with tantrums and bad behavior, there has to be a combination of methods, including time out, reasoning, etc.

I find today that parents are much more prone to verbal abuse to their kids which imo can do as much if not more harm than a spanking. And let me just say for the record, there is spanking and then there is beating..there is a difference. Spanking involves open hand swats, Beatings involve foreign objects such as belts, extension cords and the occasional pot spoons.

I have two very different sons (10&8), one is quiet, studious, good on all accts except he is sneaky and quiet when he does his dirty deeds. The other son, is outwardly the complete opposite of his brother, his thing is that he has to have the last word even when he is in the wrong. I can't dole out punishment the same way to these kids. Reasoning doesn't work with either one, as with most kids, once they have their minds set on something, or have formed an opinion about something, they are very reluctant to change. I could talk till I'm blue, 5 -10 minutes later, they're back at the same stuff. It affects my older son more to have me take away things from him, toys, priviledges etc. My younger son would just move on to the next thing...he can entertain himself facing a blank wall with no one in the room, but he understands and gets it when he gets swatted on the butt.

I have major problems with the government telling me that my methods are wrong or can't be done. Not everyone can afford behavior therapists, get on reality shows like babysitter nanny or want their kids to be drugged up to get them to "behave". Most good law abiding parents do their research, they spend time with their kids, they know what works and what doesn't work.

Instead of getting involved on such a scale in our private lives and saying we can't spank our children, the government should be figuring out ways on how to better the parents lives so that they are not coming home so tired and overworked, or seeing less and less of their kids because schools, daycares and tvs are now suitable babysitters.

My biggest critique of spanking is it is based on the assumption that it will be effective. Other behaviour modification techniques are criticized because it will not spark any sort of reaction from their child. But they presume that spanking will. What about when one open palm slap on the behind does nothing to deter the target behaviour? Is it two next time? Maybe a little harder?

With behaviour modification, you always have the option rework the program. Always attempt something else from another angle. You always have another option. With spanking, it either works or it doesn't. When it doesn't, parents with poor communication skills are going to escalate to full blown abuse. If one slap does not work, two will. If two doesn't, three will. When three doesn't, maybe a fist will.

I think it takes a certain type of child and a "special" parent to be able to properly use spanking as an appropriate choice for behaviour modification. It is a fine line to walk but combined with good parenting, I do believe it can be effective.

[edit on 1-2-2007 by chissler]