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Hugo Chavez: 'Go to hell, gringos! Go home!'

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posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 02:42 PM
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Well, as with any source of infomation, you must also consider the source and whatever agenda they may have. Don't know what that might be for the author(s) of your book, however, a good example of what I'm saying would be all the books on both sides of the global warming issue. Each side claims to tell you what is really happening. SSaying that, it would probably be fairly easy to find books "proving" that the U.S. was leading the world in inventions. People also tend to read books/articles that reinforce what they already believe rather than trying to look at both sides of an issue.




posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Each side claims to tell you what is really happening. SSaying that, it would probably be fairly easy to find books "proving" that the U.S. was leading the world in inventions. People also tend to read books/articles that reinforce what they already believe rather than trying to look at both sides of an issue.


No really this about in the last 20 years of so, our nation has become stagnant when it comes with new ideas, inventions, cures and even space exploration.

I don't believe that it has to do with politics.



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by centurion1211

...SSaying that, it would probably be fairly easy to find books "proving" that the U.S. was leading the world in inventions. People also tend to read books/articles that reinforce what they already believe rather than trying to look at both sides of an issue.


No really this about in the last 20 years of so, our nation has become stagnant when it comes with new ideas, inventions, cures and even space exploration.




The US stopped innovating and producing, and sold off or privatized all its assets some time ago. Now, the nation sells itself as a "consumer market" - which might explain the stagnation.

Many Americans are still in denial, but it's really old news:

America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast





I don't believe that it has to do with politics.



How 'bout economics?

...btw, what's the difference between politics and economics? Where do the two overlap?




posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
No really this about in the last 20 years of so, our nation has become stagnant when it comes with new ideas, inventions, cures and even space exploration.

Marg, how much of that computer you are sitting at was available 20 years ago? Not computers in general, I'm talking about that low cost, high speed. globally connected piece of work on your desk?



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by Dae
..............
Dear me, Chavez must be really getting under the Corporate Machine's skin if people are calling him a socialist, radical leftist, a nazi, communist, dictator, and anti-american. Those words are loaded with terrible negative connotations - what on EARTH has he done thats so BAD?


He has called himself a Communist, and that in order for others to understand his "Socialism", which is red socialism as he has stated so many times before, people have to read the writtings of Karl Marx and Lenin....

He has also called himself "antiimperialist" and the goal of his "revolution" is to replace Capitalism with Communism... Many times has he claimed that in order to "save the planet something must be done right now and through Capitalism the planet cannot be saved"....

He has used every concern that we have these days as a political tool to spread his agenda...

That and more has come direclty from his mouth.... others and i have excerpted what he has said, and more often than not and for some reason the western media does not report everything he says, or the exact words he uses.

I have excerpted many times his speeches in Spanish, and translated them for people to realize what his goals are.


Originally posted by Dae
He has? When did that happen, where? I honestly want to know.

Honestly people, the US needs to mind its own business - oh thats right, it is!



In many of his speeches he has said so. I have posted direct links to his speeches in Spanish where he openly talks to his "revolutionaries" about violence against the United States, and he has even said that "peaceful demonstrations in many cases need more violence from police than violent demonstrations", when refering to what happened on April 11 2002 in Venezuela.


They are right to be worried, because they know what's happening here," Chavez said in a speech lasting nearly three hours after accepting his prize.

"They will forever try to preserve the US empire by all means, while we will do everything possible to shred it."

english.aljazeera.net...

The above link could originally be found in a CNN article, but it doens't exist anymore.....




“I was Chavez’s own presidential pilot, and I know a lot of the inside deals from the presidential palace. With my knowledge, I must now warn Venezuela and the rest of the world: The time for freedom is running out. It is now or never” – Juan Diaz Castillo

JRN: How long were you a pilot for President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela?

DIAZ: I did one year as Chavez’s pilot and another year as operations chief for the Air Force.

JRN: Did President Hugo Chavez offer money to the Taliban? Is that correct?

DIAZ: Yes, that is correct.

JRN: How did this come about?

DIAZ: This came about as the result of a directive from the president who wanted to put Venezuelan troops into Afghanistan [on the side of the Taliban]. Also, in addition, he wanted to bring in humanitarian aid, medicines and clothes, and this was going to be done with the Venezuelan Air Force on top of the financial aid that was offered.

JRN: When was this aid offered?

DIAZ: After the middle of September 2001.

JRN: Chavez wanted to send troops to Afghanistan?

DIAZ: The initial order from Chavez was to send troops in Venezuelan planes [to help the Taliban], but economically this was unfeasible. Also, it was operationally unfeasible because the United States had an air blockade in effect against Afghanistan.

www.financialsense.com...


I find it strange and amusing at the same time that even though statements from Chavez are excerpted direclty from his mouth his supporters claim that "it is his oponents who are claiming this"....


[edit on 22-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by centurion1211
marg, how can you say that when just about anything and everything that western civilization is based on was invented here?


Actually as unfair as it may sound I was reading about how our nation has become stagnat when it comes to iventions and discoveries.


Exactly. We've outsourced everything, have dumbed down science greatly and further because of corporations giving so much money to Universities, they want science to be taught their way.

Example: At the University of Berkeley, the bastion of liberal education, a science teacher was fired for telling his students a fact about genetically modified food. But the corporation who produced this food didn't want anyone to find out and pressured the university to fire him. He told the truth and got fired. Lots of scientists lately that that's happened to.

And: it's not a Communist , totalitarian state. Chavez was elected by the people, and these have been honest elections with international agencies standing watch to make sure everything was honest. Just because he has read Marx and Lenin doesn't make him a Communist, he's talking about socialism, quite a different thing.

Where do you get this is totalitarian? You'll notice the article that was cited has an obvious slant to it, making Chavez look like a loony. That's what the U.S. media has become, a mouthpiece for the administration, who actually vets many articles first.

As for the private corporations, they have outsourced all the decent jobs so that our economy is not real good at the moment. No one has money to buy anything. They may be able to produce things more cheaply, but it's at the expense of the employees, as someone else pointed out. And as for providing better service, I say that's a load. How many times have you called a corporate company and gotten someone on the phone who's in India, hardly speaks English and has such a thick accent you cannot understand them?



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
People can be so blind to anything our government leaders deem evil and wrong . . .


Yes Marg, and you are apparently one of them...

How many times have i said in the past that Chavez is a Communist and he is following every step that castro took Cuba through?.... Now he finally declares who he is, and what he plans to do, and still you try to defend him?....


Originally posted by marg6043
The only reason Chavez is a thorn in the side of the Bush administration and his oil barons cronies . . . is because Chavez kicked them our of his nation for stealing Venezuela resources.

If Venezuela were not an oil nation, Bush would not even care if Chavez were hanging its citizens in the streets.


I guess Chavez announcing that his goal is the destruction of Capitalism and the U.S. is not a reason for the U.S. government not liking much Chavez huh Marg?....



Originally posted by marg6043
To compare Chavez to Hitler . . . please . . . Bush fills that role better in his pursue of the Middle East invasion for control of oil resources.


Actually compare him to Lenin... Because Chavez himself told all of venezuela and the entire world that in order to understand the "new Socialism" of his, people have to read the writtings of Karl Marx and Lenin...

Chavez wants to be the Lenin of the 21st century....



Originally posted by marg6043
Look first to what is happening to us here in our own democratic nation before questioning the motives of other leadders around the world while trying to keep their nations to the property of the people.


"Trying to keep their nations to the property of the people"?.... Chavez has as mentors and teachers castro, Karl Marx and Lenin Marg....

"trying to keep their nations to the property of the people".....


[edit on 22-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
......
And: it's not a Communist , totalitarian state. Chavez was elected by the people, and these have been honest elections with international agencies standing watch to make sure everything was honest. Just because he has read Marx and Lenin doesn't make him a Communist, he's talking about socialism, quite a different thing.


Already quoted from his speech that he declared himself a communist and even tried to claim "Christ was more of a Communist than a socialist".....



Originally posted by forestlady
Where do you get this is totalitarian? You'll notice the article that was cited has an obvious slant to it, making Chavez look like a loony. That's what the U.S. media has become, a mouthpiece for the administration, who actually vets many articles first.


Not when every newspaper in Spanish that covered his speech say exactly the same thing, and in fact as i have mentioned in another thread the news media in the U.S. have not excerpted those parts in his speech where he declared to be a Communist, that Christ was a communist more than a socialist, or that in order to understand his "new socialism" people have to read the writtings of Karl Marx and Lenin...

the only difference between Chavez and Lenin is that Lenin only wanted to spread the "revolution" in Russia, while Chavez wants to spread it around the world...

You do know who Lenin was right?.....

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
"trying to keep their nations to the property of the people".....


Mira, hesiste el punto ya, ok? No es necessario hablarle asi a un miembro. Tu bien sabes que ella no es perfecta con ingles. Porque no le preguntastes en un u2u lo que queria decir, eh? Que barbaro.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Mira, hesiste el punto ya, ok? No es necessario hablarle asi a un miembro. Tu bien sabes que ella no es perfecta con ingles. Porque no le preguntastes en un u2u lo que queria decir, eh? Que barbaro.


It has nothing to do with her English, and btw my English is not that perfect either, it has to do with the fact that she wants to keep claiming Chavez is a good man working for the people.

La verdad es que estoy cansado de la gente que sigen diciendo que Chavez es un buen hombre y no es comunista, cuando el mismo lo admitio en frente al mundo entero, y a admitido que lo que el quiere es el mismo Communismo que Lenin trajo al mundo.

Communism has been the worse economic/political system to be brought to this world and still people want to cheer for a man that wants to bring the same system that killed more than 110 million people and imprisoned millions more?....

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by Orwells Ghost
If the duly elected president of Venezuela wants to nationalise his country's resources and infrastructure, how can any foreign nation, even the high and mighty USA, say otherwise?


They elected him, we were handed a POTUS.

They want to get rid of Corporate bad guys, we can't do anything to stop them ...


... hmmmmm ...



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:32 AM
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Dude, I hear ya. I don't like him either, personally. And I dam sure don't like the idea of ANOTHER country headed into cummunism anywhere near this place. But I tend to be one to side with universal principles, Muaddib. We've lived with Castro on our doorstep for quite some time. But the entire world has had to deal with us on just about everyone's doorstep, in one form or another, for the last even longer time. And as long as we keep it up, we're gonna keep getting Chavez's and Castros thrown right back in our face. Or much worse.

What is it with American government that they feel the need to be up everyone's butt in foreign policy all the time? There's a time to act. Iraq wasn't it. Hitler- yeah, even though in that case we stalled too long. I just wish one damn time- we'd get it right.

So, anyone up for a cruise missile ride into Caracas? Smiles only, please.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:36 AM
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Again here is part of the speech, where Chavez admits he is Communist and how he tries to claim Christ was Communist too , from a website of the government of Venezuela which has the entire speech Chavez did at the beginning of this year.


Y te juro, José Vicente, te juro, que aún sintiéndome al borde de la muerte salí en tu defensa y dije ¿comunista? Bueno, podrá ser comunista, yo también lo soy, y luchamos por la dignidad de los seres humanos.
.............Cristo era comunista. Era un comunista auténtico, antiimperialista, enemigo de la oligarquía y de las élites del poder.

www.pdvsa.com.../design/biblioteca/readdoc.tpl.html&newsid_obj_id=3407&newsid_temas=110

In the above he says he is a Communist and claims that Christ was also a Communist.

In the following excerpt Chavez talks about what socialism means.


Por otra parte, y ante la preocupación expresada por algunos obispos sobre el contenido del "socialismo del siglo XXII", que será el objetivo de su nuevo mandato, Chávez les remitió a los escritos de Karl Marx y Vladimir Lenin y a la Biblia para que "aprendan lo que significa socialismo".

www.terra.com...

in the above Chavez says that in order for catholic bishops to learn about the "socialism of the 22nd century, which is going to be the goal of his new mandate, Chavez told them to read the writtings of KArl Marx and Lenin, alongside with the bible to know what socialism means"...

Most Communists have always claimed to be "socialists", and for years Chavez has said that it is "red socialism" which he is trying to spread around the world.

Since most venezuelans are Catholics he also has to claim to be Catholic...he went as far as claiming that castro is also a "Christian"....

Now trueAmerican, since you seem to understand Spanish a bit, take a look at those sites, since I have given links like the above to Marg before but she dissapears when such evidence is presented, and then tell me Chavez is a good man trying to fight for the people...

Here is another Spanish link where Chavez and the Iranian president talk about a military alliance against the United States.

I mentioned this before that in Spanish news agencies Chavez was filmed saying exactly this, yet for some reason the English speaking newspapers don't mention it.
www.iarnoticias.com...

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by forestlady
......................
He's nationalized oil and has given the profits back to the citizens in the form of completely erasing illiteracy in his country, good health care and a better standard of living.
.................


Actually according to recent studies the claim that "Venezuela is illiteracy free" is not true at all.


Freed from Illiteracy?
A Closer Look at Venezuela’s Robinson Literacy Campaign*
Daniel Ortega
Instituto de Estudios Superiores de Administración
Francisco Rodríguez
Wesleyan University
Edward Miguel
University of California, Berkeley and NBER
October 2006

Abstract
We evaluate the success of the Venezuelan government’s latest nationwide
literacy program, Misión Robinson, using official Venezuelan
government survey data. Controlling for existing trends in literacy
rates by age groups over the period 1975 to 2005, we find at most a
small positive effect of Robinson on literacy rates, and in many
specifications the program impact is statistically indistinguishable
from zero. This main result is robust to time series analysis by birth
cohort, and to state-level difference-in-differences estimation. The
results appear to be inconsistent with recent official claims of the
complete eradication of illiteracy in Venezuela, but resonate with
existing research on other adult literacy programs, which have usually
been expensive failures.

frrodriguez.web.wesleyan.edu...

As for a "better standar of living"... At least 28,000 Venezuelan doctors have had to go on strikes because Chavez lowered their pay and even after that he asked castro to send Cuban doctors who are paid $200 a month.

Chavez is using the Cuban doctors because they are "cheap labor".... nothing more, nothing less, and it is not helping the Venezuelans in the least....

How is it "helping Venezuelans" when Venezuelans professionals have gone on strikes because Chavez is hiring cheap labour from Cuba?...

How is it good for the people when Venezuelans have been laid off en mass for signing a referendum against Chavez?....

How exactly has "the standar of living" gotten any better when there are "political prisoners" who have not resorted to violence but are in prison for their political beliefs?

Here is an example of what has changed in Venezuela.


2005 World Press Freedom Review

By Nayeli Urquiza Haas

The administration of President Hugo Chávez tightened its grip on the press in 2005, while groups close to the government, including the so-called "Círculos Bolivarianos" (Bolivarian Circles), hampered journalists’ ability to report. President Chávez’s government introduced harsher penalties for libel, defamation and "desacato" (insult), which resulted in a growing number of journalists appearing before the courts. The controversial Social Responsibility Law also went into effect in 2005, underlining the decline of freedom of expression in Venezuela.

International organisations condemned the legal restraints used to silence journalists, but President Chávez and his cabinet ministers disregarded them. Instead, they took every chance to verbally attack those not aligned with the official position. Officials at all levels of government found ways to accuse the media of "terrorism, treason, pro-Americanism, and subversive behaviour."

On 10 January, Patricia Poleo, a columnist for the Caracas-based newspaper La Nueva Opinión, was called to testify in the case of former Attorney General Danilo Anderson, who was killed in car bomb attack in November 2004. Anderson was in charge of investigating the coup d’état that briefly deposed Chávez in 2002. According to Poleo’s reports, published in December 2004 and January 2005, Anderson had allegedly extorted several lawyers and prosecutors in exchange for halting the investigation. Poleo was charged with violating anti-corruption laws and the illegal disclosure of documents from an on-going investigation. On 28 January, officers raided her home and seized files from her computer. Poleo, known as one of the government’s harshest critics and an active member of the opposition, vowed not to reveal her sources.

On 12 April, Poleo was sentenced to six months in jail for defaming Interior Minister Jesse Chacón, who accused the journalist of "inciting aggression against him." The political persecution of Poleo reached its climax on 11 November, when the prosecutor accused her of being one of the masterminds behind Anderson’s murder.

Like Poleo, Ibeysé Pacheco, director of Así es la Noticia, a Caracas-based daily, faced more than one trial in 2005 and was criminally charged after testifying as a witness. On 8 April, the Attorney General’s Office accused Pacheco of false testimony because she allegedly told Zeta magazine a different version of her court testimony about a story she published in May 2003 regarding a meeting in which the president, vice president and other cabinet ministers allegedly planned to murder opposition members. Pacheco also appealed a 2004 prison sentence for criminal libel, but it was rejected at the beginning of 2005.

Napoleón Bravo, an anchor for the television network, Venevisión, was charged on 1 March with "incitement to hate" José Vicente Rangel Seijo, the son of Sucre mayor José Vicente Rangel Ávalo and grandson of Vice President José Vicente Rangel. If sentenced, he faced up to six months in prison.

On 29 April, Marianella Salazar, a columnist for the daily newspaper El Nacional, was accused of slandering Vice President Rangel and the Governor of Miranda state, Diósdado Cabello. Salazar wrote two columns, on 11 and 18 June 2003, claiming that Rangel and Cabello received illegal money from a private company. If convicted, she faced up to two and a half years in prison.

In July, Attorney General Isaías Rodríguez Díaz opened a criminal investigation against the Caracas-based newspaper El Universal for "insulting" the national prosecutor in an editorial that criticised his office and the judiciary. In its 25 July edition, El Universal published a front-page editorial titled, "Justicia arrodillada" (Justice on its Knees), which argued that the Attorney General’s Office and the country’s courts were losing their legitimacy.

www.freemedia.at.../KW0001/KW0002/KW0032/

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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Pro or Con I think Chavez has more of a right to determine the future of his country that the US. How many central AmericaN RULERS WERE DEPOSED bt the US(CIA). That is Ameerican goons murdered South American politicians, I would be very wary of the present regime in the US myself. It will take time to know if he has improved things for his country or is a cult personality, but even so it not our resposibility to make things right(Iraq) Latins are more than capable of overthrowing their own undesireables.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 09:25 AM
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Hugo Chavez should be the Minutemen's Poster Boy. Chavez is a threat to national security enough let alone any of his followers. That makes me want to start building a wall immediately.
The US has to start using this rhetoric from the 5 foot tall socialist and countering it with actions of their own, building a wall in the face of a 5 foot tall man would be quite intimidating to him, regardless of what he cries.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican
.........................
What is it with American government that they feel the need to be up everyone's butt in foreign policy all the time? There's a time to act. Iraq wasn't it. Hitler- yeah, even though in that case we stalled too long. I just wish one damn time- we'd get it right.

So, anyone up for a cruise missile ride into Caracas? Smiles only, please.


Sorry but Communism does not exist "because of the United States". Why is it that some people still want to claim that Communism exists because the United States?... Oh i forgot...these days some people want to blame everything on the United States....

Communism exists in spite of the United States. If the United States didn't exist Communism woud have appeared in the scene anyways.

As for Iraq, that is another subject which has been discussed at length before and has nothing to do with this topic...why is it that some people keep wanting to change the subject of threads like this one?...

Communism and Chavez does not exist because of the United States..... That's like saying Hitler existed because of the Jewish people.....but it is known that is not true because Hitler killed and imprisoned millions of people who were not Jewish.... The same goes for Communism, Communist regimes have imprisoned and killed millions who had nothing to do with the United States...


[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by polanksi
Pro or Con I think Chavez has more of a right to determine the future of his country that the US. How many central AmericaN RULERS WERE DEPOSED bt the US(CIA). That is Ameerican goons murdered South American politicians, I would be very wary of the present regime in the US myself. It will take time to know if he has improved things for his country or is a cult personality, but even so it not our resposibility to make things right(Iraq) Latins are more than capable of overthrowing their own undesireables.


Well there is only one fact some people keep trying to ignore, and that fact is that Chavez, alongside some others, want to spread Communism around the world, hence it is a concern for countries which are not Communist.

I am not saying "let's go invade Venezuela"... but it is obvious that it should be a concern when Chavez, like so many revolutionaries before him, want to spread the revolution and have been inciting violence against countries which are not Communist/revolutionary.

Why is it that some people claim "the United States shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other countries", yet when people like Chavez state their goal is to spread Communism around the world, and that includes in the United States, these same people in these forums don't say a peep?.....

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 07:44 PM
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ABCnews.com

CARACAS, Venezuela Jan 23, 2007 (AP)— Blowing whistles and waving flags, hundreds of Venezuelans protested Tuesday against a congressional measure that would grant President Hugo Chavez the power to pass laws by decree in areas from the economy to defense.

Some 400 to 500 protesters stood in a Caracas plaza and shouted in unison: "Faced with authoritarianism, more democracy!"

The protest came as lawmakers in the entirely pro-Chavez National Assembly announced they would postpone until next Tuesday a session to grant final approval of a so-called "enabling law" allowing Chavez to enact laws by decree during an 18-month period. Chavez is seeking special powers to quickly push through changes from nationalizing electrical companies to imposing new taxes on the rich.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Well, enough Venezuelans are opposed to Chavez's potential new powers that they gathered and protested.

How long before Chavez claims the USA was behind these protests today?



[edit on 23-1-2007 by UM_Gazz]



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by polanksi
Pro or Con I think Chavez has more of a right to determine the future of his country that the US. How many central AmericaN RULERS WERE DEPOSED bt the US(CIA). That is Ameerican goons murdered South American politicians, I would be very wary of the present regime in the US myself. It will take time to know if he has improved things for his country or is a cult personality, but even so it not our resposibility to make things right(Iraq) Latins are more than capable of overthrowing their own undesireables.


Why is it that some people claim "the United States shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other countries", yet when people like Chavez state their goal is to spread Communism around the world, and that includes in the United States, these same people in these forums don't say a peep?.....




Erm.

...Because Chavez is not spending $2.2 BILLION dollars a day to help his rich friends steal other nations' wealth and resources?

...Because Chavez is not killing civilians in our name, using our money to do it, and writing off dead babies as "collateral damage"?






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