creationists/IDists, admit your defeat

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by MrXYZ
We cloned sheep from scratch, and nothing but laws stops us from doing the same with humans.

You mean to tell me that you took parts that were not from sheep and made sheep? How were these embryonic sheep supported and nurtured till they were developed enough to stand on their own and feed themselves. Did they have an umbilical chord? Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. There's no such thing as "from scratch". I challenge anyone to make sheep without using a sheep and a sheep's uterus.

Dolly was born 5 July 1996 to three mothers (one provided the egg, another the DNA and a third carried the cloned embryo to term)
en.wikipedia.org...(sheep)

So using 3 sheep to do what normally takes only 2 sheep to do is an advancement?

edit on 24-5-2011 by dbates because: (no reason given)

I'm saying we can create life from base components. What started life in the first place is unknown (FACT), and you can't just substitute a gap in knowledge with magic (aka god).

Of course creationists or intelligent design inclined people can point to the complexity of just the human body as proof (or what we thought to be proof) of design.

How does that prove an intelligent being designed us??? Natural forces are far more likely given that they are responsible for everything we see around us that we can explain...hell, NOTHING has ever been proven to be god's work. In ancient times they claimed meteorites are a "sign of god" (they were wrong), or that plagues are made by god (they were wrong again), and the list goes on. The "god did it" track record is beyond awful

People seem to think of God as a Character in a book written thousands of years ago.

People need to start thinking of God in a way that's more realistic.

The way I see God is that God is an unknown consciousness that Human Beings lack the comprehension to Understand.

reply to post by swoop1234

The way I see God is that God is an unknown consciousness

I don't wanna attack you, because you're obviously free to state your beliefs...but what's the logical basis for your claim?? What's your objective evidence that there is such a thing as a conscious creator??

Originally posted by MrXYZ
You might wanna read up on transitional fossils before posting more nonsense

I read your link. Quite interesting as they basically said the same thing I've been saying. You can't use the fossil record to determine ancestry or prove evolution.

it is almost impossible to be sure that any form represented in the record is actually a direct ancestor of any other. In fact because evolution is a branching process that produces a complex bush pattern of related species rather than a linear process that produces a ladder like progression, and because of the incompleteness the fossil record, it is unlikely that any particular form represented in the fossil record is a direct ancestor of any other.

And my favorite part:

the number of species known through fossils must be less than 1% of all the species that have ever lived

Now we're right back to where I was a few posts ago. Scientist will tell you that they can't produce fossils because conditions are not right for fossils but they have lots of thoughts about how things happened that they're more than happy to tell you about. Again is this science or philosophy?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

The way I see God is that God is an unknown consciousness

I don't wanna attack you, because you're obviously free to state your beliefs...but what's the logical basis for your claim?? What's your objective evidence that there is such a thing as a conscious creator??

The way I see it is the Universe is so vast that there is literally Vast amounts of life in all of existance. And to think that Human beings understand all with science does not make sense to me. We don't know the answers to all questions through science.

On Earth there are Human Beings, but there are also beings like Ants. An Ant would not be able to comprehend the thought of a Human Being. What is impossible to imagine for an ant is easily possible for a human. With that in mind, when you take the whole universe into account, there has to be a species where things that we humans can't comprehend is easy to understand.

The concept of God to me is much more than just a conscious creator.

Originally posted by dbates
Hey, you got to have faith. The Bible is up-front and direct about that part of the deal. No denial from me on that one.

Maybe science requires a bit of faith as well... no?

Of course creationists or intelligent design inclined people can point to the complexity of just the human body as proof (or what we thought to be proof) of design.

Ah... the middle ground! The buffer zone where science and theology meet. Question: Why is it that the simplest organisms seem to have the longest time on this planet and the more complex ones seem to not last quite so long?

And speaking of 'design', why is Golden Geometry used to such an extent in religious symbolism? Isn't geometry responsible for such fundamental church design as the mandorla and vesica piscis for pillar placement, window, roof and door arches?

Why do all three of the main 'One True God' religions use the science of geometry as invented by such luminary scientists as Pythagoras of Samos, a pre-Christian scientist.

The holes in the fossil record supports my position.

There is a large hole in common theories of creationism as well, even though I DO believe in a Creator. I have no knowledge of just what the Creator is, nor do I expect to understand until I return to the vesica piscis myself. Meanwhile, it might be best to smoothe over the holes in both theories of creation and evolution with 'clean faith fill'.

reply to post by dbates


And the quotes you posted is one of the reasons why scientists don't only rely on the fossil record, DNA analysis (which can prove heritage without doubt) as well as migratory trends also fully support the theory.

Also...you might wanna watch these clips




To say the fossil record doesn't support the theory of evolution is beyond hogwash

reply to post by swoop1234

And to think that Human beings understand all with science does not make sense to me. We don't know the answers to all questions through science.

But that doesn't mean you can just fill a gap in knowledge with whatever random, non-proven hypothesis you want...and that includes ALL religions

Well...you can, but claiming it's the (only) undeniable truth makes people look incredibly silly in the 21st century

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

And to think that Human beings understand all with science does not make sense to me. We don't know the answers to all questions through science.

But that doesn't mean you can just fill a gap in knowledge with whatever random, non-proven hypothesis you want...and that includes ALL religions

Well...you can, but claiming it's the (only) undeniable truth makes people look incredibly silly in the 21st century

edit on 24-5-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

Actually you can fill a gap in knowledge with a non-proven hypothesis. It's only a theory. But It's not something that is random. It's something that I have thought long and hard about over the majority of my life. And I'm not claiming that it's the only undeniable truth.

reply to post by swoop1234

Actually you can fill a gap in knowledge with a non-proven hypothesis. It's only a theory.

You're obviously fine to believe whatever you want if it makes you happy....but a hypothesis isn't a theory

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

Actually you can fill a gap in knowledge with a non-proven hypothesis. It's only a theory.

You're obviously fine to believe whatever you want if it makes you happy....but a hypothesis isn't a theory

Then what is a "non-proven hypothesis" ?

reply to post by swoop1234


Hypotheses aren't proven at all. They are claims that have to be tested before being called a theory. It's all part of scientific method.

What I have problems understanding is why people have the NEED to make up stuff at all, instead of admitting we just don't have the answers (yet). I mean, in many cases, you can completely debunk many religions...like the Genesis account, it's demonstrably wrong

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

Hypotheses aren't proven at all. They are claims that have to be tested before being called a theory. It's all part of scientific method.

What I have problems understanding is why people have the NEED to make up stuff at all, instead of admitting we just don't have the answers (yet). I mean, in many cases, you can completely debunk many religions...like the Genesis account, it's demonstrably wrong

Okay. I have a question for you now.

In this vast universe, is it possible that there is a form of consciousness that Human Beings currently do not have the comprehension to Understand?

Is it possible that our planet Earth is A living thing?

Also, do you think that you have a soul?

reply to post by swoop1234


Of course it's possible...but we have ZERO evidence supporting those claims. It's also possible the big bang happened when a giant purple space unicorn farted matter into existence, but I don't see anyone running around claiming it...but I guess we have enough other crazy theories.

The fact remains, you are making stuff up that has no evidence behind it. If it makes you feel good, fine. But claiming it's "how it happened", or that you "know" that's how it happened is ridiculous. Why would you believe in something that has zero objective evidence as support? Why the need to make something up simply because we don't have the real proven answers (yet)?

As for the soul, it's really just a collection of memories and experiences. It's what makes you as a person "you". But if you think about it rationally, it's just like a computer that also is the product of its experiences and memories. Doesn't mean computers have souls either.

I try to look at things rationally, and maybe that's because I'm simply not scared of death...and I don't worry about it. Probably because I had my heart stop a few times already

As I see it, there's 2 options:

1) There is a god, in which case the majority on this planet followed a wrong belief. If that's the case, there's nothing I can do to change it...and I wouldn't live my life any other way than I am currently doing. If that deity wants to punish me because of that (assuming he/she/it even cares), I still wouldn't change anything because I don't respond well to illogical demands in scriptures. So if case 1) is the true, I'd probably end up joining the rebel forces

2) There is no god, in which case nothing changes. I'd still live my life as I am now, trying to be good. And if when you die that's it, and you don't go to heaven (or whatever other hypothesis you believe in), and you're just gone...then why worry? There's nothing you can do to change it. Imagine all that time people spend in churches. The average church-going believer spends a full year (!!!) following a belief that's blatantly wrong and illogical during his entire lifetime. And when I say a year, that assumes you're awake for 24hrs for an entire year. Using normal sleep rhythm, it's closer to 2 full years. No thanks!

The Gods/God/Creator/Big Kahuna/FSM must have been a scientist.

What else could have come up with a successful formula such as the Golden Ratio which is repeated a million ways throughout all of nature?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

Of course it's possible...but we have ZERO evidence supporting those claims. It's also possible the big bang happened when a giant purple space unicorn farted matter into existence, but I don't see anyone running around claiming it...but I guess we have enough other crazy theories.

The fact remains, you are making stuff up that has no evidence behind it. If it makes you feel good, fine. But claiming it's "how it happened", or that you "know" that's how it happened is ridiculous. Why would you believe in something that has zero objective evidence as support? Why the need to make something up simply because we don't have the real proven answers (yet)?

As for the soul, it's really just a collection of memories and experiences. It's what makes you as a person "you". But if you think about it rationally, it's just like a computer that also is the product of its experiences and memories. Doesn't mean computers have souls either.

I try to look at things rationally, and maybe that's because I'm simply not scared of death...and I don't worry about it. Probably because I had my heart stop a few times already

edit on 24-5-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

I never claimed that what I think is "how it happened" or that I "know" that's how it happened at all. There's no guarantee that I'm right at all. In fact, I'm probably wrong. Compared to other beliefs, this just makes sense to me.

There's religion which tries to teach good morals but is run by corrupt individuals. There's science where there is evidence, but fails to explain the questions that are most important in my life. And there's what I believe. The reason that I believe these things is because I think that one day we could have the real proven answers, and they wouldn't be too far off from what I believe.

Let me try to summarize a little bit of what I think.

-There is Life all over the universe. (this is considering that the universe is so massive).
-There's life that we are unable to comprehend. Similar to how ants are unable to comprehend us. Could this be god? Maybe, but I don't know.


And what about the idea that there is a God, but that all religions on this planet just got it wrong?

reply to post by swoop1234


Doesn't change the fact that your belief is based on pure speculation without any objective evidence backing it up. That's why I asked why people feel the need to make stuff up

As for life in the universe, you might enjoy this video...it goes along well with your ant analogy:



Obviously that doesn't mean life beyond our comprehension is a creator...but it would be incredible if we were the only life given the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE^100000000 size of the universe

Originally posted by masqua
The Gods/God/Creator/Big Kahuna/FSM must have been a scientist.

What else could have come up with a successful formula such as the Golden Ratio which is repeated a million ways throughout all of nature?

No.
This is your brain at work, that thing inside your head that evolved by natural means.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by swoop1234

 

Doesn't change the fact that your belief is based on pure speculation without any objective evidence backing it up. That's why I asked why people feel the need to make stuff up

As for life in the universe, you might enjoy this video...it goes along well with your ant analogy:

Obviously that doesn't mean life beyond our comprehension is a creator...but it would be incredible if we were the only life given the HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE^100000000 size of the universe

How do you know that my belief is based on pure speculation? If I were to sit down and explain what I believed to you it would take hours. I haven't explained my belief to you at all really. Do you realize that I'm not a Creationist? That I'm not religious? That I'm not an Atheist either?

reply to post by LikeDuhObviously


No... this is nature showing us what perfection is. My brain, although it physically has some sacred geometry within its structure, does not equate my mind, which has zero structure.

But thanks anyway.