Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton Announces White House Bid

In The Land Of The Blind...

Let's please try to express our opinions on the issues without casting aspersions on other members simply for having different opinions or not following every thread in every forum.

Thanks.

Originally posted by RANT
Make a thread explaining fairtax and said votes for and against. Should prove a valuable contribution.

PS - Explaining why you hate this economy so much you want to dismantle it and yet "thrive in it" should prove interesting too.

It just seems you're not quite sure where you stand.

There already is a thread that pertains to the fair tax, and it explains it quite well. Its called the "fair tax" Its in American politics. Its not hard to find.

And it wouldn't 'dismantle' the economy as you seem to suggest it would. More like improve it. It would 'unshackle' the US economy.

Why don't you come by the fairtax forum. It explains alot. Its a good place to go if you have any questions.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 073131p://0501pm by semperfoo]

posted by rant
Sorry, I've seen it and other references now. I just didn't realize how meaningless your monotone mantra was before I asked. I was seriously interested

now you're going to run away without answering my question? please tell me how you have come to the conclusions you have about the fairtax, please show me the math and the economical statistics and research provided before making comments like 'dismantling the economy'.

here are some of my researched and supported links

fairtax.org...

fairtax.org...


majic I have been very civil and I have adressed some key issues here in which I have gotten hit and run responses, every hard working tax payer and investor is on board with the fairtax and so are the nations top economists. this subject has everything to do with every aspect of american politics and IMO is just as serious if not more than terrorism and illegal immirgration. individual liberty is just as important as all of these and should rise above them in priority.



[edit on 26-1-2007 by ape]

this will adress insurance issues in this country, the healthcare part should be of some interest to you.

fairtax.org...






[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
What can I say... three cheers for Davenman. Simple, to the point, and honest.....

....Although I'm not an across the board fan of Hillary Clinton I do think that the weather-vane reputation which she in part borrows from her husband is a weak criticism for the most part.

Vagabond,

I appreciate your comments. I am posting my opinion and will keep it that way except for a few things that I have witnessed in my line of sight.

I see no point in arguing with people here who are quite possibly Republican Party Spies here to twist and spread disinformation with rumors, political rhetoric and hearsay. Those types of people are the whole reason that this website exists. Hopefully, most at this site can see right through them.

I am an American first and foremost. I want what is best for our country just as most Americans do. I am not fond of the Democrat Party, but I have learned in these last few years where the Rpublican Party stands....with Big Business, i.e. pharmaceuticals, oil and more. Many of us Americans make the mistake of thinking that when the Republican Party looks out for big business that it is looking out for all businesses. That is quite untrue. I am a micro-business owner and know that big business just wants to gobble us up in an effort to monopolize markets and therefore make untold profits...see Microsoft for an example.

Even the big software corporations can't touch Microsoft today because of the way Microsoft has a stranglehold on our computers. Apple/Mac provides the closest competition to microsoft. Today with the collaborated efforts of thousands of hackers, Open Source is gaining a foothold but still has a ways to go. But that is a topic for another discussion.

My point is that the Republican Party has been paving the way for Mega-Corporations to control the flows of money in this world of ours. When they do that, then all of the things that our grandfathers fought for, i.e. the 40 hr workweek, vacation pay, elimination of child labor and various job benefits, will go by the wayside as Americans find that it takes not a 2 income family but rather a 3 or 4 income family in order to survive. This is not a good trend. It must be stopped while we still have the ability. As a business owner, I like to pay better wages but I can only do that when my competition has to do the same. I cannot do that when I have to compete with China.

This brings me back to my support for the Democrat Party today. I mentioned that I am not fond of the Democrat Party, but considering the 2-party system that we have today there doesn't seem to be much choice. I will still press for a 3rd party, but today it seems imperitive to stop the Mega-Corproration & Big Brother take over.

I am actually not very fond of the image that Hilary has had over the years. However, as a married man, I do know that 2 people cannot remain married unless they agree on a considerable amount of goals in life. Bill and Hilary have remained married even through some scandalous times. This tells me they must have a lot more between them than just sex. This tells me that Hilary will likely push much of the same agenda as Bill did. I did not vote for Bill even once because I am a conservative. I was of the mind that we needed people in office who would effect the moral aspects of laws in this country. After 6 years of Republican Rule, I now know that they will not do that...not only that but they have done worse by plunging our country into a deep financial mess that will take many years to work out of.

However, if we, as a country, can get back on track with domestic issues, then we can begin the process.

Back to the Clintons...in retrospect I can see that Bill, through much battle with a Republican Congress, forced a Republican Congress onto a nearly balanced budget and therefore a program of healthy growth here in the U.S. (Remember when we had no budget for 3 months and many governemnt employees & contrators had to wait for their paychecks until the budget was settled?) He didn't create jobs, but he created an atmosphere where jobs became plentiful for the Average American, not Execs. The stock market grew at a healthy pace, regardless of what people tried to say at the end of his tenure. Core commodities stabilized in price, our currency became the staple of the world and the U.S. was in a position to dominate the world financially, where today we are rapidly becoming servants to China.

Today, China is winning a war that people don't even see...a financial war. Manufacturing in America, and I mean all of America from Central America to Canada, is rapidly becoming non-existant. Does anyone know what it means if we loose the ability to make things? People are no longer being trained to make things here. If nobody knows how to make and build things from raw materials, then our military becomes dependant upon Chinese manufacturing to supply it's needs. Manufacturing is the foundation upon which our military rests. Without manufacturers our military has no arms to fight with and no firm foundation upon which to stand.

For many years now I have avoided military contracts because of the massive paperwork involved. By the end of Clinton's tenure, Gore had succeeded very much in reducing much of that paperwork and had created a system by which most military contracts were open to most U.S. manufacturers. This created a competitive government with competitive bidding. Quality control was still in place for all of this. Today we have gone mostly back to the no-bid era of sourcing only to certain manufacturers who have bought their way into the system. For those jobs that are open to bid, they are open to bids from non-U.S. companies that may or may not have the best interest of the U.S. at heart. Does that concern you? It should. If we actually get drawn into a global conflict again, we may find that we no longer have sources to buy our military supplies from. Without that supply line, we would are dead in the water. Don't be afraid. Be very, very afraid!

This is just a couple of things that I've seen of Republican Rule that I don't see addressed often enough.

Therefore, I am in hopes that Hilary or whoever the Democrat Party taps for the nomination to President will have a good grasp of the true current State of the Union.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by davenman]

Just a little more on my perspective of Hilary....

Hilary currently gets my nod just because of what Bill did and I believe that she will continue in his Legacy. She also has many years of experience working in the White House, so she knows what goes on and how things work. She is quite possibly the most qualified candidate out there. Her moral standing on issues like abortion is her main weakness in conservative camps and those issues may be enough to stop many conservatives from voting for her. She would be wise to avoid that issue all together. However, seeing what the Republican Party did in 6 years about those issues when they had such dominating power...well...they don't have a leg to stand on when waving those banners.

On the abortion issue, she could, however, promote adoption in the U.S. and funding to support mothers who wish to have their babies but would like to give them up. This sort of thing would go a long way in the conservative camps. As a woman, she would gain much by doing such a thing. It would be a good counter to the abortion issue while maintaining friends on the Pro-choice side of things.

In 2004, Kerry nearly lost my vote in the debates because of his bold stance on the abortion issues. He should have side-stepped the whole question. I actually campaigned all of my friends and associates for Kerry up until he did that. Oh...and he didn't have a very good answer when asked about his wife....Bush did. It may not seem like much, but as a happily married man, I know that a man's perspective of his wife & family is a key to his approach to life. After he bumbled those two questions, I still voted for him as a vote against Bush because I am even more against deceivers, but I could no longer campaign for him in good conscience.

daveman, I am very aware your indirect shots were taken at me, im hardly a republican spy I am an independent, making such statements tells me you're misinformed and need to be educated on such subject matter. How about reading my posts and the facts in my links before spending time posting paragraphs of nonsense.

I also suggest educating yourself on US federal tax policy and the special relationship between the democrats and the IRS before jumping behind party lines like a blind/deaf man.

I see no point in arguing with people here

how about adding some intellectual input to the conversation instead of arguing? you have nothing that backs up your opinion about our state, I also am an american and thrive in this country through hard work and im only 23 which is why I question your stance. your stance lacks substance and has no factual information to back it up.

you wanna support hillary? thats fine but take a good look at her voting records and the policies she advocates for before jumping to conclusions on whats better for this country. people should educate themselves before advocating for complete socialist.

the democratic party is against the fairtax plan, thats says everything about that party and anyone who is not ignorant would do their research before advocating for joke candidiates.

have a nice day.

Core commodities stabilized in price, our currency became the staple of the world and the U.S. was in a position to dominate the world financially, where today we are rapidly becoming servants to China

clinton basically sealed the deal with outsourcing, he did nothing to adress it and nothing has changed since then. not to mention unemployment is at an all time low and the economy is the strongest its been in decades recovering from the clinton recession and all the hits it has taken. do you know what you're even talking about?

[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

Ape,

I stand by everything I said.

If you have evidence to the contrary, then present it. I hear your OPINION, but I'd like to see supporting evidence from you.

evidence to the contrary? thats a prime example that you have not read any of my links or anything I have typed, i'm actually waiting for your proven research and statistical fact to back up what you claim, I have offered plenty of links to my stance on hillary along with bites of her voting record and her grading with orginizations.

I like to consider myself an independent thinker I dont like the politicans thinking for me and telling me whats best for me and my family when im perfectly capable of making those decisions on my own, individual liberty: you should embrace it.

im a registered independent and i vote for whoever represents my best interests, since I got into politics I have felt nobody represents me until i discovered AFT and the grassroots bi-partisan fairtax plan. anyone who is for individual liberty, prosperity and integrity has my vote.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

Originally posted by ape
how about adding some intellectual input to the conversation instead of arguing?

If that's not what he just finished doing, what in the world would it be called? I'm not saying it was all gospel. Particularly I believe that Davenman credits the general public (specifically conservatives) with a greater insight into Hillary's history than they are likely to actually take into the voting booth. For the most part though, Davenman worked with well established facts and followed them to plausible conclusions.

He may lack the one all-important qualification that you and I share (being 23) but just this once, I'm going to give the "grownups" a little credit.

You have voted davenman for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

please highlight on what exactly he was correct ? our economy which happens to be the strongest in the world is because of the individual and individual work ethic, democrats would like you to think otherwise. america actually took a big hit in regards to competiton in the global market under clinton. I have provided the information that backs up my opinion vagabond once again taking side without knowing anything? you refuse to adress your conclusions in the fair tax thread and in the 'what would you do if you were president' thread and are backing out of the misinformation you provided with the presidents tax panel and have yet to provide research justifying your conclusion.

daven those so called 'evil corporations' provide alot of goods and services in this country and provide health insurance for many americans and thier familys, I being one of those americans was covered very comfortably and still am today. companies outsource because of US tax policy. both you and vagabond refuse to acknowledge this and I think it says alot about both of you.

please highlight on the 'giving the credit to the grownups' ? because I would really like to know what that meant.

whats hillarys solutions for medicare in the future? and social security besides complete government take over? take away even more from those who work hard in this country and provide jobs and services and take away from those who earn wages and give to those who dont. both of you are staunch supporters of this if you endorse hillary and thats dangerous.


[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

I have to side with ape here guys.

The only way I hope to see a clinton in the white house ever again is to use the bathroom.

Bill Clinton seriously sold our country out. Something that has continued under the bush administration. And just to say, I dont consider myself a liberal or conservative. Clinton especially sold out our country to likes of china. Something im sure hillary would continue.
findarticles.com...

209.157.64.200...

www.freerepublic.com...

www.newsmax.com...

I refuse to engage you any further in your broken-record assertions of fair tax dogma precisely because of the constant communications breakdowns caused by your refusal to even consider an argument before dismissing it without refutation, which you have implicitly admitted to by refusing to have your arguments objectively judged in debate.

I'm not here to reward your trolling. I am here to reward those who are participating constructively so that your ridicule is not all that they hear.

Davenman has been quite clear. So-called "conservatives" in power over the last 6 years have discouraged competition and supported the concentration of economic power in the hands of a few extremely large corporations. Concurrent with this we have seen American industry boxed up and shipped overseas for the benefit of those same corporations. This has been detrimental to the people of the United States, who cannot continue to feed their families indefinately as jobs go overseas, to say nothing of the security they lose as America loses the industrial precursors of "hard power". It is far less detrimental to the interests of these major corporations, who are developing the global business infrastructure to ensure that they can always move their suppliers goods to a new market when the damage done to the base of the American economy becomes to great.

Hillary Clinton, though unlikeable in many ways, arguably shows some indicators of being able to address the above problems, as davenman has alluded to. Her husband's administration, in which she was quite active, rewarded the American work ethic with tax cuts and credits for our workers, made that work ethic vital to success by forcing larger businesses to compete over government contracts, etc. If she could zero in on that and communicate it to voters and perhaps get away with distancing herself at least a little bit from socially liberal groups which command far more money than voter support, she might fare much better with moderates than is presently expected.

you are against fairtax and say we need to do something to fix our domestic situation which is exactly what fairtax would do and you REFUSE to adress your stance and back up your conclusions with research after I have already disproved you with actual researched information.

i find it funny how you call me a troll when you refuse to acknowledge and back up the misinformation you type on these boards and in the threads I have asked you to adress, you practice partisan politics. a couple lessons if you want to be successfull in life dont put up a front and always back up what you say after you lecture individuals. you come off foolish and misinformed if you do otherwise. it's also nice to admit when you're totally wrong sometimes, thats part of becoming a man.

i will ask one more time, please adress your opinion with proven research and facts not only in the 2 threads I mentioned but in this thread aswell which have been asked of you, vagabond. the economy is the strongest its been in decades, 4.6% unemployment, these are facts, do you pay attention to the market? have you ever worked in your life vagabond? there is so much opportunity in this country its mind boggling, you people are so ungreatfull and spoiled.

i went from working in retail stocking to working in telecom with fiber optic equipment, gtd-5 switch equipment literally overnight, you're talking to someone who is the epitomy of american opportunity.


once again please read: fairtax.org...

[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

[edit on 27-1-2007 by ape]

www.youtube.com...

This is up on Drudge.

As someone who has worked in politics for both Democrats and Republicans, and met a lot of great people on both sides, I hope that this doesn't become the kind of think that people judge Clinton on.

Of course, because of her large stature, the only direction she can go is down, and she needs to avoid gaffes like this in the future. Putting my consultant hat on, I would advise her to go on Letterman and sing with a choir or something. She needs to ensure that she is the one who sees this as funny, and take the issue away from everyone else so that she doesn't become a laughing stock. It's better to address these sorts of things immediately instead of letting them languish. Michael Dukakis in the tank, anyone?

The poor woman definately couldn't carry a tune in a bucket... or a dump truck for that matter. I agree that she ought to get out in front of this by poking a little fun at her voice and make a feather in her cap out of not being embarrassed to show a little patriotism despite that. Then it would look pretty immature for anyone to try and bash her on it.

And while on the subject of immaturity, I can certainly not help but reflect on recent tensions between Ape and I. I've taken a short time this afternoon to reread Barack Obama's reflections on the frustrations of debating Alan Keyes and began to suspect that I might manage to find a sense of humor about this whole thing. Talk about your spooky premonitions, because a question has been raised which does lend levity to the whole thing.

The question: have i ever worked a day in my life.
That depends on what you mean by work.

If my work you mean working 12 hour shifts 6 and 7 days a week in temperatures that go from bitter cold for a 2am start to stifling by noon in a rock quarry that doesn't get much air circulation, maintaining several million dollars worth of stuff that can kill you if you aren't careful... well the answer is yes.

On the other hand if by work you mean the kind of stuff they do at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego... well actually the answer would still be yes.

And if by work you mean holding down two jobs and 19 college credits and still finding time to keep a very old house from falling down around you... you get the picture.

I guess it doesn't depend on what you mean by work. I do confess that I don't plan to always work. I intend to get rich and retire by age 40, then I'm going to start voting Republican. lol

Originally posted by davenman
Just a little more on my perspective of Hilary....

Hilary currently gets my nod just because of what Bill did and I believe that she will continue in his Legacy. She also has many years of experience working in the White House, so she knows what goes on and how things work. She is quite possibly the most qualified candidate out there. Her moral standing on issues like abortion is her main weakness in conservative camps and those issues may be enough to stop many conservatives from voting for her. She would be wise to avoid that issue all together. However, seeing what the Republican Party did in 6 years about those issues when they had such dominating power...well...they don't have a leg to stand on when waving those banners.

This is what is really scary. Bill Clinton sold us out man. He sold us out for chinese cash. I know its your opinion and your certainly entitled to it. But c'mon.

Just check out these links below man.

www.newsmax.com...

www.haciendapub.com...

usa-patriot.net...

And our military really lost alot of prowess under the clinton administration. I think America needs a new face. Not a bush (though to late) not another clinton. I think you get my point. We need someone who will do the american ppl right. Someone who will look out for our best interest. Not chinas. What say you?

[edit on 083131p://4101pm by semperfoo]

by vagabond
If my work you mean working 12 hour shifts 6 and 7 days a week in temperatures that go from bitter cold for a 2am start to stifling by noon in a rock quarry that doesn't get much air circulation, maintaining several million dollars worth of stuff that can kill you if you aren't careful... well the answer is yes.

well if thats so I find it hard to believe you would be so misinformed, anyone who works those kinds of hours ( i'm not sure what your pay rate was ) and doesn't embrace a system that eliminates government intrusion on your income and would also slash interest rates on student loans seriously has some reading up to do. my suggestion, get to it !

And just to add on to my last post.


Clinton gave China US nuclear computer chips.
www.newsmax.com...

Clintons and the Communist Chinese Campaign Donations
www.newsmax.com...

Bill Clinton Chinagate - helping China gain advantage over US, getting China campaign contributions.
www.newsmax.com...

Bill Clinton went on to say that he doesnt believe the US will "#1" 50 years from now. Ya think bill? How about selling out your country to make a buck? Clintons in the white house= bad for your health.

Theoretical question here. Say if Hillary becomes president (god help us) What would that make Bill? The first man?

I appreciate what you're saying ape, in that I'm sure that you honestly believe from the bottom of your heart that you're turning me onto something that will make my life better. (which is why I'm working to rediscover my sense of humor about this whole business)

Thing is, I'm looking at the same stuff you are and reaching a different conclusion. The experts are in the same boat. Many experts do support the plan, but many do not. That is of course because there are so many variables and depending on how optimistic you are about them, the workability of the idea can go way up or way down.

You and I seem to have reasonably similar economic experiences. We're the same age, from the same state, we've both made dirt and we've both done pretty good (The shiftless nature for which I chose my name has taken me from 7 and change in security to $32 an hour plus OT, DT, and benefits as a union operating engineer, and several points inbetween)

I look back on the various levels I've been at and I figure that at any level it could have been pretty dang good with a few reforms of how tax money is disposed. Afterall, if on average you can insure the infamous "average" family of 4.5 people in the private sector for around 4,200 dollars a year or so.

If you divided America up evenly into such families and played that average, you'd expect it to cost 287.4 Billion dollars to insure us all. Medicaid is proposed to recieve only 11 Billion less than that, and it will generally only insure those in poverty or near it. So obviously my BS detector is hitting the high notes like Michael Jackson when it comes to the efficient use of our tax dollars.

I suspect that you share my distaste for the government's underperformance there.

One potential answer is to try giving everyone their tax money back and let them try it for themselves, which is of course where the fair tax comes in, presumably using the prebate to make sure that even those who couldn't afford health insurance if they were totally untaxed can now afford health insurance.

I've got a lot of reservations about how things would pan out though, which we have been over before but can't seem to understand one another on- perhaps we'll get to that at some point but for now but right now I'm going to move on to the other major part of my point.

Another potential answer is to seek the root of the inefficiency in the government's program and resolve it. Sure you're still paying taxes, but if the system is fixed, you're getting more for that money it's reducing the demands on you after-tax income.

That is the approach I'm coming from that causes my background not to make me an instant proponent of the fair tax. The current system is flawed, but so far it hasn't killed me, so my initial inclination is to try and enhance the system I'm currently not dying in until the variables affecting a new system have been nailed down, checked, and double-checked against potential miscalculations which might make for an unstable transition. These variables take the form of tax payer reaction to the new incentive to save or buy second-hand, the actual incidence of tax evasion, possibly inflationary results of the elimination of capital gains taxes, the potential increases in opportunity cost of bringing goods to the domestic market, etc. I'm not saying that all of those variables will work out unfavorably for the fair tax plan, but I am saying that if they did, the consequences would be considerable, and thats a risk I take seriously.

Edit to add:
I just caught myself committing a vice that I have been opposing so I'd like to make a little adendum here. Although a certain indepth treatment of semi-related issues is inevitable in any thread, I think it is important that we not wholly lose sight of the lady of the hour in this thread, Mrs. Clinton. So here's a question I would be interested in posing in light of my comments above: do the policies that Hillary is likely to pursue within the current system make this system better or worse?

She isn't supporting the fair tax plan, we know that, but since fair tax arises under the broader question of whether or not she will pursue a good economic policy, there is a lurking question of whether she will at least improve things in your mind, even if she doesn't improve them to the full extent that you feel is possible (through fairtax).

I think that would be a nice subject to broaden our discussion on a bit and maybe get us out of our respective trenches.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by The Vagabond]