Problems with "Survival"

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posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:05 PM
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After browsing many of the threads in this subject I felt that something wasn't quite right. After thinking about it, I found out what was wrong: many of the "survival" techniques and skills mentioned are not basic enough.

Many people have grown too attached and connected to our society to notice these problems.

Problem 1: Survival kits

The problem with relying on a kit to survive is that it can be lost, exhausted, or otherwise taken away. The ability to quickly adapt to a situation without the need for any outside tools is essential to emergency situations. For instinace: a pocket knife is an exremely useful thing to have in an emergency. But what if the knife breaks. What if you lose it.

Problem 2: Health

Most people rely too heavily on first aid skills, medicine, and pain relief. The use of mendicine (primarily antibiotics) does help one get better quickly and efficiently but at the same time removes the need for your body to produce a natural defense for these illnesses. Too often have I seen a person get a sinus infection and start taking antibiotics and pain killers for relief. Though it does take more time and involve more pain, one can overcome most illnesses without the use of anything other than the natural immune system.


The bottom line is that humans have grown too attached to society to easily see what survival really means. I feel that the true test of survival would be an emergency situation in which you had NO supplies, NO planning, NO warning.

The sheer ability to adapt is the only thing one needs in any given situation to survive.




posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:18 PM
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I think you're confusing 'surviving' with 'sustaining'. First of all, survival preparation is unique to each individual's actual situation. There is no 'one-size-fits-all' survival plan. The whole idea behind survival preparation is to have the skills and supplies necessary to transition from the immediate post-event situation to whatever passes for 'normal' afterwards. That afterwards could range from returning home and cleaning-up to some post-apocalyptic mad-maxx lifestyle. Who can possibly know? So the whole survival idea is to have a good part of what you need to keep you and yours safe and alive post-event while you wait for things to settle down enough to be able to craft a longer term plan. Whatever that ends up to be.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:18 PM
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Hi Daniel, I just kind of posted the same thing in another thread. One should be good at making stuff on the fly, using what you can find. Having stuff is enormously helpful, but being able to get by in a pinch without your bag is essential. I try to keep basics near me where ever I may be. Knife, fire, tactical light, and some money are always on my person. My vehicle has a well stocked bob which includes many printouts full of tips for different needs.

I'll never forget the light that went on in my head the day I was introduced to the can stove. Man it was like a virus after that. I enjoy making stuff and this stove was right up my alley. Beer cans are everywhere and to make a stove in minutes from one was most cool.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by jtma508
So the whole survival idea is to have a good part of what you need to keep you and yours safe and alive post-event while you wait for things to settle down enough to be able to craft a longer term plan. Whatever that ends up to be.


That is precisely what I am talking about. Assuming you don't have time to go back home or that in the event that a situation occurs and you have NO supplies or preparation, could you survive?

I am saying that there is no need at all for a short term plan. You can skip right over to a long term plan.

If one morning you woke up completely naked in the middle of a forest with no supplies and civilization is unable to be contacted or reached in any way, could you make the cut?

In ancient times, people knew how to live with only that which is found in nature. Having that knowledge, one can survive for years (or a lifetime) without any of the "necessities" of modern survivalists.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:36 PM
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The problem with relying on a kit to survive is that it can be lost, exhausted, or otherwise taken away.


Although that is true, it has to be better to have these things. Plan for the worst, but hope for the best and all that...



Most people rely too heavily on first aid skills, medicine, and pain relief. The use of mendicine (primarily antibiotics) does help one get better quickly and efficiently but at the same time removes the need for your body to produce a natural defense for these illnesses. Too often have I seen a person get a sinus infection and start taking antibiotics and pain killers for relief. Though it does take more time and involve more pain, one can overcome most illnesses without the use of anything other than the natural immune system.


Totaly agree! Ofcourse their are some things that you probably shoudn't leave to run its own course, but i tend to just let the minor ailments i get run its own course and tend to avoid alot of teh bugs that go arround, and i do tend to believe its because i let my immune system do the work.



I am saying that there is no need at all for a short term plan. You can skip right over to a long term plan.


Thats a dangerous route to go down. Its like planning to catch a plane to wherever without booking a taxi, only to find you cant get one. Its vital to get through the first few days and give yourself some time to get your head round everything and see what you have to do next. Ofcourse havibg a longterm plan is a good idea but you may find its useless dependng upon your situaton at the tie.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by manta
Thats a dangerous route to go down. Its like planning to catch a plane to wherever without booking a taxi, only to find you cant get one. Its vital to get through the first few days and give yourself some time to get your head round everything and see what you have to do next. Ofcourse havibg a longterm plan is a good idea but you may find its useless dependng upon your situaton at the tie.


I see where you are coming from but I think we are thinking with two different mentalities.

In your example you assume that you have to be somewhere on a deadline or a time frame. But supposing you throw out all mental connections to society and with it the concept of a deadline. Now the solution becomes clear. Get someone to drive you, walk, or rent a car.

After all, in a disasterous situation, the only thing that is important is staying alive. (Though I do agree that having supplies makes it easier, I stand by my statement that they are completely unnecessary.)



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 10:57 AM
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by daniel191159
I stand by my statement that they are completely unnecessary


I think everyone would agree with the need to be able to adapt to the most basic of survival situations. How that would negate the need to discuss (and prepare for) more advanced scenarios, I'm afraid I don't understand.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by HimWhoHathAnEar
I think everyone would agree with the need to be able to adapt to the most basic of survival situations. How that would negate the need to discuss (and prepare for) more advanced scenarios, I'm afraid I don't understand.


When the stock market crashed many people could be seen jumping out of high-rise office buildings. Where then in physical danger? Where they physically injured to the point where they could no longer go on living? Did they contract a terminal disease?

The answer to all of these questions is no.

They were in no real danger at all. Those people jumped to their deaths because they were placed into a situation in which the stability of their world was thrown into chaos and they could not cope. They died because they fell for an illusion.

The world humans have created is no more than a sick game. Have you ever watched children on a playground? The games they play are a mirror to our lives. They set up rules and guidlines, a form of etiquette. But what happens when someone breaks the rules?

The game comes to a screeching halt and the fantasy world which they worked so hard to create falls apart around them. They get angry and argue. But every now and then you get one truly bright individual.

This individual declares, "It is just a game."

This individual transcends the illusion and steps back into the world without the rules of the game and rarely gets involved in the fights that insue.

By realizing that the rules are not real, that the world is not real, one can live in it without being controled by it.

In this world, money, credit, possessions, these are the things that one needs to survive. However, that is not the only world. By separating one's self from the corporate world one begins to enter the real world: the world of nature.

Now, I'm not talking about the lovey-dovey, tree-hugging nonsense proffessed by hippies. They only see half of the story. The other half involves accepting the darker side of nature along with the light. But that's another story entirely.

Let's take the Y2K approach. Many people prepared by getting water, food, and supplies to survive the possible mayhem.

I went on a walk. I noted possible water sources, local plant life, and the best forseeable path to travel on foot if the need would arise. With that knowledge, you will not starve or dehydrate. You will have shelter and mobility. By staying away from large cities you have safety from riots.

It is by a complete return to nature that preparation in most situations becomes completely unnecessary.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by daniel191159
..In ancient times, people knew how to live with only that which is found in nature. Having that knowledge, one can survive for years (or a lifetime) without any of the "necessities" of modern survivalists.



Ecosystems have been irretrievably altered by human influence, i imagine you'd be hard pressed to find wildlife in what used to be the great plains. even stone age civilisations went in groups and saved food for the winter and i severely doubt they could have reliably survived being dropped naked into the middle of nowhere, under adverse circumstances (winter..).

you're probably right that skills make a huge difference, ie. it would be nice to be able to make mocassins and clothing from the get-go or have some knowledge of healing plants, but the most presssing issue is that the day the system collapses, you're effectively living in a desert, unless you're living on pristine land.

btw, what about long term supplies such as seeds?



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 11:44 AM
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by daniel191159
I went on a walk. I noted possible water sources, local plant life, and the best forseeable path to travel on foot if the need would arise. With that knowledge, you will not starve or dehydrate. You will have shelter and mobility. By staying away from large cities you have safety from riots.


I think that is a great way to prepare! It should be the first thing someone would do. In other words, I see it as the most Basic component to the Survival Plan. But I would not view moving 'up' to more advanced planning as a negative thing.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 11:53 AM
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Daniel
Well I salute your drive I find flews in your logic. It is certianly possible to get stuck without any kind of equiptment the odds are very very slim. As a survivilist I have supplies within reach of ware ever I am and ime sure the rest of the serious survivilist do to. But should the unthinkable happen I have trained myself and been trained to make due with out all my fancy smachy equiptment. From what Ive read of alot of the others they are the same way. However this a is a great topick for discussion. Any thing that kicks my brain into gear is all right by me
.
Hmm, wares my beer this could take a while.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 12:10 PM
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For years now in my back pack...I have carried a magnifying glass. Not for firestarting but at work I must sometimes read small etchings on metal parts. I am also in the habit of keeping a plastic bag with a change of T shirt and two clean pairs of socks. I keepa a six pack of Snickers bars in there too along with my bottled water. Also is a sewing kit ..not for such emergencys you folks are describing but simiple repairs. This includes the larger needles and a roll of waxed string.
I am also in the habit of carrying two disposable lighters ..once again not for the scenerios of survival but for melting the ends of the nylon string we sometimes use to keep it from fraying. Always with me is a mag lite converted to the LED type bulb modification and at least four extra AA type batteries. Also in the back of this pack is two radios..a Sony Walkman Cassette player AM/FM and a Grundig Mini 100 PE radio...AM/FM and the short wave bands. Ear pieces too for quiet listening as much of that to which I listen others are not intrested at all. All my electronic gear is set up for AA type batteries. Keep it simple here.
A rain parka is also folded up in this backpack.
I have always ...like forever carried a P38 can opener with me as have many people...until the computer age. I still carry it on my key chain. Also I am usually equipped with a Gerber multi tool, my modified Mag lite, and a set of feeler gages. Also a lock picking set. This has been my standard equipment load out now for years and years. And of course a folding knife too. Not really for emergencys per se but because I have found this load out convenient where I work.
I never really thought of this load out as a survival kit but more of what I take to work with me. It would function as such in a pinch.
With the reading of some of these posts I am considering other modifications to this load out.

Daniel has a point about long term. I am aware that if there is a total breakdown it will be difficult and all these tools and goods will wear out. This will not be up to us to determine. WE will be subject to this and have to make do as best we can.
However I also agree with Manta's point about not starting out at the basest level. With no equipment because all we know is how to prepare for tonights Lakers game.

Daniel has a valid point but so too does Manta.

For years now since Sept 12 2001 I have carried in the back of my truck a M1 Garand and about 84 rounds of ammo in the end block clips. I have always carried with me a short gun a .357 magnum revolver with extra ammo and speed loaders in a zipped up case. A fifty round box of reloads under the seat. I am considering replacing the M1 Garand with an SKS Rifle. The SKS is just as reliable and something I could more afford to lose.
My truck is equipped with an Amateur radio capable of multiple band transmissions/receptions and the antennas to accomodate.
Most of the time going to and fro work I am riding my moped. My objective would be to get back home if possible and re evaluate from there.

Almost all of this gear is long term going to be useless..most of it will break down and be junk. I do not intend however to start with the position of only having the television schedule for the Lakers game.

I hope and pray that we do not have to face a long term problem. Looking at the situation continuing in New Orleans and the fallout unto today....it may be a possiblity, as it is become clear by the example of New Orleans that in many areas of this country what is so lacking is simple leadership.
It is known for years now ,in certain circles, that New Orleans has all the necessary ingredients of being a cess pool and a dung heap for those of the lowest common denominator in thinking and conduct. I am talking about in both government and people. This has become obvious by the fruit it is today ..right now bearing out... and by what is leaking through in the media that this continues to this day. The government and the people are not up to handling this problem which seems to be accelerating. Keep a eye on this one for survival information. It is going to be a labratory textbook case. The media will be wont to cover it up/lie about it for political reasons.
THe Hurricane is over for more than a year now ..many still cant cut it and are choosing to stay out of New Orleans. It is obvious that it is a political as well as a civil breakdown. How much genius do you need to know that in certain areas of that city you are on your own. Watch this one closely for the "Blame Game." This too is survival technique/training for some. It is the only way they can survive. You are going to see this one more and more in the future. Survival training=blame game. Beware!!

Just some thoughts to add to this post and survival

Orangetom



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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I think we should turn our cities into walled in camps in case the lords start bickering.

You know how toxic the roving knights can be with the right to slaughter peasants so indiscriminately.

Oooops, wrong century.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by clearwater
I think we should turn our cities into walled in camps in case the lords start bickering.

You know how toxic the roving knights can be with the right to slaughter peasants so indiscriminately.

Oooops, wrong century.


I have no use for feudalism in any form. It disgusts me whenever Prince Charles comes here about 30 miles North of me to Colonial Williamsburg here in Virginia. Same with Maggie Thatcher and others.
While I have a great respect for the Uk and their history I have no desire to be a subject.
I am also well aware that much of social engineering today is feudal in nature. Desiring to make people subject ..not independent or self sufficient. Dependent on the political/social system....ie ..politics.

It doesnt matter to me if it is politicians or drug people trying to stake out new territiorys. I dont care for the feudal scenerio under any colour of law...or wildlife. I find it disgusting.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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I neglected to mention three other items I carry constantly in my bag and rotate them back in as they are used. These items are.

A tube of that anti bacterial ointment
A set of 72 inch long boot laces
A pair of those Dr Schols shoe inserts.

The inserts make a big difference if you are on your feet for long periods as I am wont to do.

The antibacterial ointment is for obvious reasons.

The shoe laces are for simple maintenance on ones boots but would come in handy for other uses in a BOB. I am considering carrying another set after reading some of the posts on this board. They dont take up much space.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 02:13 PM
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paracord will lace those shoes! lol
hey I just added some vicodin to my bob.
Im hoping to get some antibiotics some time.
Drugs can be cycled out as exp. dates near.



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by shadow watcher
paracord will lace those shoes! lol
hey I just added some vicodin to my bob.
Im hoping to get some antibiotics some time.
Drugs can be cycled out as exp. dates near.


Thanks for the tip. I had not considered paracord for shoe laces although I am considering purchasing a large roll of this cord and stashing it away along with some different types of wire.
Also yes...drugs can be cycled out. I keep a bottle of Acetomethaphin on hand(Tylenol) in my back pack. I refill it from a large bottle I keep at home and also cycle it out if the dates come due.
Hydrogen Peroxide, Alcohol, Vaseline, and anti bacterial ointment is standard around my home.

Thanks for the paracord tip,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 01:08 AM
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yup - paracord and other things will replace sho lacing - if required

but in a time critical sutuation - try lacing paracord through a boot with full eyelets , not hooks

even melting the end - its still far harder than real laces

i forget what the bit at the end of the lace is called - it has a special name - but sometimes such little details really REALLY help



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 07:25 AM
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i hear you on this subject, it's one i deal with all the time i am a certified search and rescue tech with the wasco county sheriff's search and rescue.
the one overwhelming problem is knowledge, on a recent tv show they gave a group of people primative fire making equipment and guess what no one could make fire so out came the matches and presto only one person managed to get a small fire started. even if you had the best survival kit, like my 24 hour pack you still need to know what the equipment is and how to employ it. it is incredible to me that the number of people that do not know how to use the most basic tools. so you are correct to say the tool of survival are no whats in a kit but whats in your head.



posted on Jan, 24 2007 @ 01:09 AM
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Someone posted a site about a fire piston type pump. It is a really neat gadget and I am thinking about having a go at fabricating one. It cannot be all that difficult. You just have to be able to function in reasonably tight tolerances. Not that tight but tight enough to make pressure. THe videos are extroardinary. I dont think you need even make one of any size. They seem to come in a multitude of sizes.
I keep several magnifying glasses around and also binoculars. But what if the sun is not up...or it is very overcast? This is where the fire piston is advantageous.

Yes I understand the concept of starting a fire and also understand that many people dont have the patience to do it the primitive way.

Those with skills and abilitys..the understanding to put it to use will be highly sought after commoditys.

Thanks,
Orangetom





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