U.S. official: Chinese test missile obliterates satellite

Originally posted by chao
Suppose some of your satellites are destroyed,your GPS navigation system doesn't function properly,so your nuclear warheads probably will hit the wrong target.

Cheers!

Did you even bother to read this?

Westpoint23 said:

Yes we do, in several ways, we publicly demonstrated this capability in the early 80's. Anyway, we have known this threat for a long time (see Space Pearl Harbor), which is why there are (and have been) several programs underway (quiet ones) to address this problem. Creating several delivery systems to quickly and cheaply launch multiple satellites into orbit on short notice. Creating space based anti-satellite weapons. Ground lasers, and in the future space lasers, kinetic interceptors which can target both nuclear warheads and missiles such as this one in all stages of flight. And finally the creation of several groups to jam and disrupt the satellite communications of enemy states.

Not to mention that shooting down your own satellite which you know the trajectory of, which wont attempt to maneuver or change orbit, which wont deploy any countermeasures and which is probably beaming at you. Is not the same as shooting down US military satellites in a time of war

Great points Westpoint.

[edit on 123131p://4901am by semperfoo]

Originally posted by chao
Suppose some of your satellites are destroyed,your GPS navigation system doesn't function properly,so your nuclear warheads probably will hit the wrong target.

Not quite, as was previously mentioned US strategic nuclear missiles primarily use INS and stellar navigation. They have been using this form of navigation for decades, long before there was such a thing as GPS. In fact they will only use GPS as a backup guidance source. This is because US missiles are suppose to be completely self reliant, needing no external input (except for the target package) which is probably already pre loaded into the missiles guidance computer anyway. You can rest assured that with INS guidance alone a CEP of 100 meters (328 ft) or less is guaranteed.

Also, US nuclear capable cruise missiles such as the Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, etc.. also use INS, terrain following guidance, DSMAC and datalinks from other platforms.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by chao
Suppose some of your satellites are destroyed,your GPS navigation system doesn't function properly,so your nuclear warheads probably will hit the wrong target.

Not quite, as was previously mentioned US strategic nuclear missiles primarily use INS and stellar navigation. They have been using this form of navigation for decades, long before there was such a thing as GPS. In fact they will only use GPS as a backup guidance source. This is because US missiles are suppose to be completely self reliant, needing no external input (except for the target package) which is probably already pre loaded into the missiles guidance computer anyway. You can rest assured that with INS guidance alone a CEP of 100 meters (328 ft) or less is guaranteed.

Also, US nuclear capable cruise missiles such as the Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, etc.. also use INS, terrain following guidance, DSMAC and datalinks from other platforms.

Thank you for additional information on that
But,without GPS,US military capability will be 'discounted' severely,(ex,it will not be easy for B-2 to hit a ground target so accurate).

Nobody will take kindly to anyone knocking out GPS satellites..
The US may own it but the world uses it..
they can try and shoot at military satellites.. leave GPS alone..

America would never attack China or vice versa because there both to powerful, the world's a big place with many weak countries so why risk a massive war?

China in the next 5 years will overtake America's economy and their population is 1.3 billion which out numbers the US more than 5 times.
China now has the biggest Army, Navy and air force in the world, the main thing you should consider is that China's government has total control over its people far more than the US do and if a war was coming and they would tell every man aged 16-50 to join the army etc which would make the biggest army the world has seen.

They soon will be the super power of the world and there's nothing that can be done about that. They produce an amazing amount of graduates from university each year and you can bet that they probably have the world best scientists and a hell of a lot more nukes than they state.

I sometimes think that the PRC has so much manpower and resources, that the U.S. won't have enough ammo.

Or at least, if there is stockpiles, it won't be logistically distributed very well.

Its sounds to me like the white house is looking for any excuse to get tensions with china to rise. It is almost like they want to set the stage for a war with china, which if you have been reading some of the posts on 2012, would confirm the predictions of a supposed plan war between the US and China to reduce population. I am not saying this is going to happen but it is something to keep in the back of your minds as this unfolds( if any thing even ufolds from this)

I don't like the idea of this weaponising of space and the resultant debris problems could ruin space as a peaceful benefit for us all.

I also think the idea of this in itself being a particular 'threat' or that China is in any way a threat to the USA today is, frankly, laughable.

The most casual glance at the military spending figures shows who is weaponising (everywhere) the most.

But if ever there was a case of hypocrites reaping what they sowed -

The US has also been carrying out research on lasers that could knock out enemy satellites and the Bush administration has repeatedly ruled out the idea of a global treaty banning putting weapons in space.

Only last August, President Bush laid out a new US national space policy which said Washington would "preserve its rights, capabilities and freedom of action in space" and "dissuade or deter others from either impeding those rights or developing capabilities intended to do so".

news.bbc.co.uk...

It's a pity so many in the US obsess about this kind of manufactured 'problem' and ignore the host of everyday problems so apparent in day to day life at home and abroad
(and no, I'm not singling out the US as only having these problems either, all of us in the so-called developed and civilised 'west' have these issues too).

Poor health-care?
Obesity?
Educational underachievement?
Starvation?
Care for the elderly?
Poor housing?
Unemployment?
The under-class?

To name a few.

Carry on fretting about China if you must but IMO there's far more pressing and immediate worries in the world than ones like this that could have been so easily and wholly avoided had certain politicians had a little more sense.

[edit on 19-1-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

how good can the united states do against a eurasian front?

Originally posted by Lucas_1984
America would never attack China or vice versa because there both to powerful, the world's a big place with many weak countries so why risk a massive war?

China in the next 5 years will overtake America's economy and their population is 1.3 billion which out numbers the US more than 5 times.
China now has the biggest Army, Navy and air force in the world, the main thing you should consider is that China's government has total control over its people far more than the US do and if a war was coming and they would tell every man aged 16-50 to join the army etc which would make the biggest army the world has seen.

They soon will be the super power of the world and there's nothing that can be done about that. They produce an amazing amount of graduates from university each year and you can bet that they probably have the world best scientists and a hell of a lot more nukes than they state.

The United States Economy produces twice as much more money than any other country. U.S 1.9 Trillion to Japan at 900 billion. So I do not see how China will surpass anytime soon on the economic scale.

I do agree that the Chinese could have a large army but man-power can be wiped out by Technology. Unless you live in China you have no idea what goes on there. The United States has been far ahead in technological advances for decades and what makes you believe the Chinese have surpassed us? Because they said they have?

There are a lot of secrets in the United States Government and I'm sure many of them are technological. China could probably do some damage but IMHO we could wipe them off the map.

[edit on 19-1-2007 by antmax21]

AGAIN, must I repeat AGAIN against the "we can wipe them off the map" ARROGANCE.

You forget, that China has HUNDREDS of Nuclear weapons as well - FULLY CAPABLE of hitting mainland America... Yes, the United States can wipe China off the map, but China can do the EXACT same.


Even though American technology is superior compared to Chinese technology; don't think for ONE SECOND that defeating China would be an easy task. Their technology is decent, their soldiers are well-trained, they have a formidable navy and air force, any fight would most likely occur in Asia (China's backyard), and oh one more thing: AMERICANS HAVE NO WILL TO CONTINUE FIGHTING AGAINST LITTLE INSURGENTS IN IRAQ, DO YOU HONeSTLY BELIEVE THEY WILL TAKE ON A COMPLETELY NEW WAR AGAINST ONE OF THE STRONGEST NATIONS ON EARTH? China would make Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea combined together look like a stroll in the park.

Oh, and here's something interesting from America's East Asian allies including S. Korea, Japan and Australia: www.insightmag.com...

"The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China."

I am so SICK AND TIRED of Americans thinking they are invincible and can decimate ANY nation just like that... Again, get a grip on reality... and deny ignorance.


[edit on 19-1-2007 by k4rupt]

Originally posted by k4rupt
AGAIN, must I repeat AGAIN against the "we can wipe them off the map" ARROGANCE.

You forget, that China has HUNDREDS of Nuclear weapons as well - FULLY CAPABLE of hitting mainland America... Yes, the United States can wipe China off the map, but China can do the EXACT same.


Even though American technology is superior compared to Chinese technology; don't think for ONE SECOND that defeating China would be an easy task. Their technology is decent, their soldiers are well-trained, they have a formidable navy and air force, any fight would most likely occur in Asia (China's backyard), and oh one more thing: AMERICANS HAVE NO WILL TO CONTINUE FIGHTING AGAINST LITTLE INSURGENTS IN IRAQ, DO YOU HONeSTLY BELIEVE THEY WILL TAKE ON A COMPLETELY NEW WAR AGAINST ONE OF THE STRONGEST NATIONS ON EARTH? China would make Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea combined together look like a stroll in the park.

Oh, and here's something interesting from America's East Asian allies including S. Korea, Japan and Australia: www.insightmag.com...

"The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China."

I am so SICK AND TIRED of Americans thinking they are invincible and can decimate ANY nation just like that... Again, get a grip on reality... and deny ignorance.


[edit on 19-1-2007 by k4rupt]

Not to get into an argument but if we as country do not think we are invincible we've already lost. And Yes If America had to get into an upscale all out war because of an attack against us we'd Unite and fight as strong as we could. That is the whole point of this country freedom for ourselves. Even though it seems to be diminishing, I am glad to be an American. You overestimate China ...drop some facts about them...Numbers on them then rebuttal.

Originally posted by k4rupt
AGAIN, must I repeat AGAIN against the "we can wipe them off the map" ARROGANCE.

You forget, that China has HUNDREDS of Nuclear weapons as well - FULLY CAPABLE of hitting mainland America... Yes, the United States can wipe China off the map, but China can do the EXACT same.

Your right about the nukes, but i think most not all but most people see the war as being conventional. No one would want a nuclear war it would be devistating for both sides. However you can bet that the US would knock many of china's nukes out of the sky before they get here. That is why I think China will be and probably is building many more nukes.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Even though American technology is superior compared to Chinese technology; don't think for ONE SECOND that defeating China would be an easy task. Their technology is decent, their soldiers are well-trained, they have a formidable navy and air force, any fight would most likely occur in Asia (China's backyard),

No defeating China would not be an easy task, Air superiority would be difficult because while we might knock their jets out of the sky quickly, they would be able to industrialize their people and build more and more. However I think we would establish air superiority eventually and start bombing the hell out of their industry. That coupled with a naval blockade would starve many Chinese and destabilize their government, considering that this stays conventional.

Originally posted by k4rupt
and oh one more thing: AMERICANS HAVE NO WILL TO CONTINUE FIGHTING AGAINST LITTLE INSURGENTS IN IRAQ, DO YOU HONeSTLY BELIEVE THEY WILL TAKE ON A COMPLETELY NEW WAR AGAINST ONE OF THE STRONGEST NATIONS ON EARTH? China would make Iraq, Vietnam, and Korea combined together look like a stroll in the park.

Oh, and here's something interesting from America's East Asian allies including S. Korea, Japan and Australia: www.insightmag.com...

"The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China."

I am so SICK AND TIRED of Americans thinking they are invincible and can decimate ANY nation just like that... Again, get a grip on reality... and deny ignorance.


[edit on 19-1-2007 by k4rupt]

I think you underestimate America's resolve. Sure we are pissed about having to fight a war in Iraq but to most of us the Iraqi war in either Illegal or at the very least unwarrented. However, if china where to attack Taiwan, and in many scenario's I've read, attempt or even succeed in sinking an American Aircraft Carrier then I think you would see major support in America for any war effort. Not only that but you would see support for America all over the world. We would then reindustrialize our war machine and that would be another boost to our economy. In fact it this would probably help America in the long term. I welcome you though to continue to underestimate America, I infact encourage it.

However, if china where to attack Taiwan, and in many scenario's I've read, attempt or even succeed in sinking an American Aircraft Carrier then I think you would see major support in America for any war effort. Not only that but you would see support for America all over the world.

Hahaha, okay first off, I'm gonna have to stop you RIGHT there. You honestly believe that Americans are willing to send off their sons and daughters to fight CHINA because of Taiwan, a region that has NOTHING to do with America? You honestly believe the American public will support that?

Also, if you read polls conducted by the BBC, the ENTIRE WORLD, places the United States as the second largest threat to global security... only Iran was ranked higher. The ENTIRE WORLD ranked the U.S. invasion of Iraq as the LARGEST THREAT to peace, even higher than that of Iran's nuclear ambitions... And throughout the world, ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE, protests against the United States and it's war efforts IS so astounding, one only needs to turn on the news and know that the U.S. is barely hanging on with support from it's own allies.

And secondly, China said it would not use military force if Taiwan does not formally declare independence AND AT THE SAME TIME, the White House has stated repeatedly that if President Chen (Who has 10% approval rating btw) continues on with his unsupported (even in Taiwan) "independence" provocation, the U.S. would drop all promised support for Taiwan if an invasion did occur.

We would then reindustrialize our war machine and that would be another boost to our economy. In fact it this would probably help America in the long term. I welcome you though to continue to underestimate America, I infact encourage it.

A war against China would help in the long run? Let me ask you, Iraq has costed the United States how much? And let me ask you another: HOW MUCH DEBT IS THE UNITED STATES IN? (9 Trillion dollars) So how in God's name can a MAJOR WAR, one that would make Iraq look like a strawberry cheesecake, help the United States in any economic, let alone social and political, way. Secondly, no war against two nations WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS can EVER help ANYONE.

Lastly, I DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the United States... I am merely coutnering the VAST, VAST, VAST underestimation of the PRC... and btw, when I posted that America cannot defeat China, that wasn't my own statement, but that of officials, diplomates, and analysts from AMERICAN EAST ASIAN ALLIES including S. Korea, Japan, and Australia.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Hahaha, okay first off, I'm gonna have to stop you RIGHT there. You honestly believe that Americans are willing to send off their sons and daughters to fight CHINA because of Taiwan, a region that has NOTHING to do with America? You honestly believe the American public will support that?

China invading Taiwan would only gain about half of American support, I did mention that in the case that China would sink or damage an American Aircraft carrier, did you miss this part or skip it on purpose? In the case that our assests were attacked it would Rally the American people in away not seen in generations.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Also, if you read polls conducted by the BBC, the ENTIRE WORLD, places the United States as the second largest threat to global security... only Iran was ranked higher. The ENTIRE WORLD ranked the U.S. invasion of Iraq as the LARGEST THREAT to peace, even higher than that of Iran's nuclear ambitions... And throughout the world, ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE, protests against the United States and it's war efforts IS so astounding, one only needs to turn on the news and know that the U.S. is barely hanging on with support from it's own allies.

Polls mean little to nothing, people around the world didnt like us before 9/11 and then there was a large outcry in support for us when that happened. We may have blown that support but most people do remember an oppressive communist regime in Russia and they would support America if we were attacked by China. That might not mean they would goto war with us but there would be support especially from NATO. You forget how fickle people can be.

Originally posted by k4rupt
And secondly, China said it would not use military force if Taiwan does not formally declare independence AND AT THE SAME TIME, the White House has stated repeatedly that if President Chen (Who has 10% approval rating btw) continues on with his unsupported (even in Taiwan) "independence" provocation, the U.S. would drop all promised support for Taiwan if an invasion did occur.

That was a way for us to force Taiwan to keep the status quo, which I agree with. There is no reason to push for war.

Originally posted by k4rupt
A war against China would help in the long run? Let me ask you, Iraq has costed the United States how much? And let me ask you another: HOW MUCH DEBT IS THE UNITED STATES IN? (9 Trillion dollars) So how in God's name can a MAJOR WAR, one that would make Iraq look like a strawberry cheesecake, help the United States in any economic, let alone social and political, way. Secondly, no war against two nations WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS can EVER help ANYONE.

First I did stipulate that this stay conventional, and I did say how devistating a Nuclear war would be. I would also like to mention that a War would help nobody personally. I do think that winning such a war would help America Strategically. If China attacked America it would instantly validate the last fifty years of American Foreign Policy.

Originally posted by k4rupt
Lastly, I DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the United States... I am merely coutnering the VAST, VAST, VAST underestimation of the PRC... and btw, when I posted that America cannot defeat China, that wasn't my own statement, but that of officials, diplomates, and analysts from AMERICAN EAST ASIAN ALLIES including S. Korea, Japan, and Australia.

I think that you are forgetting that this study from our allies was a political stunt meant to do two things. Allow themselves to justify building up their militaries a bit and to also give us a little push in the back.

I do not underestimate the PRC, that is why I personally am for a slow decline in all trade with China and renewed Isollation of their economy. The buisness could be sent to friendly South American countries to build up their economy and afford us Cheap Labour.

Originally posted by JackJuice


China invading Taiwan would only gain about half of American support, I did mention that in the case that China would sink or damage an American Aircraft carrier, did you miss this part or skip it on purpose? In the case that our assests were attacked it would Rally the American people in away not seen in generations.

Obviously, again, there would be no need to sink any American carriers beccause China would not invade UNLESS the DPP declares independence... and by doing so, the United States HAS stated that it would drop all military backing. By America's own policy, the U.S. would be completely out of the way in any conflict between China and Taiwan.

Polls mean little to nothing, people around the world didnt like us before 9/11 and then there was a large outcry in support for us when that happened. We may have blown that support but most people do remember an oppressive communist regime in Russia and they would support America if we were attacked by China. That might not mean they would goto war with us but there would be support especially from NATO. You forget how fickle people can be.

Polls mean nothing? That's what President Bush thinks as well. Anyway, the United States, has in no doubt blown MAJOR support from every one of it's allies. Know this: Europeans are VERY, VERY weary of the United States... the people, the diplomats, the politicians. Nearly always, Europe is very hesitant to get itself INTO any conflict, let alone a major one, and when you throw in that this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM, it's pretty obvious the Europeans would remain completely neutral in such a fight.

That was a way for us to force Taiwan to keep the status quo, which I agree with. There is no reason to push for war.

Agreed. There IS NO reason for war.

First I did stipulate that this stay conventional, and I did say how devistating a Nuclear war would be. I would also like to mention that a War would help nobody personally. I do think that winning such a war would help America Strategically. If China attacked America it would instantly validate the last fifty years of American Foreign Policy.

So... your saying a war would be good for America in the long run simply because it would validate 50 years of American foreign policy? You're forgetting that the monetary cost would be unimaginable, let alone when the U.S. is under 9 trillion dollars in debt... let's not even begin to divulge into the deaths of countless men and women on BOTH countries...

I think that you are forgetting that this study from our allies was a political stunt meant to do two things. Allow themselves to justify building up their militaries a bit and to also give us a little push in the back.

"Officials acknowledge that Mr. Ishihara's views reflect the widespread skepticism of U.S. military capabilities in such countries as Australia, India, Japan, Singapore and South Korea."

It's not a political stunt, it's SKEPTICISM. There is no official memo on this, and most Asian nations are expressing this VERY privately.

I do not underestimate the PRC, that is why I personally am for a slow decline in all trade with China and renewed Isollation of their economy. The buisness could be sent to friendly South American countries to build up their economy and afford us Cheap Labour.

You do know that trade is a two-way street. The last thing any of us want is a trade war between two of the VERY large economies... Let's not forget that China has a large stake in America's 9 trillion dollar deficit.

Remember: Treat a man like an enemy, and he will become your enemy. Let's all just live in peace and TRY to avoid any conflict... it would be good for no one in ANY way.




[edit on 19-1-2007 by k4rupt]

The military aspect of space is ONLY A peace time aspect.
Thats the bottom line.

should the world be drawn into a major conflict, larger than ww2, nations WILL be utilisiing space technologies to hit their enemy.

IT was avaliable in WW2, because we wernt at that stage.

Vietnam, korea, Iraq wernt large enough, and significant enough to the survivial of Super powers to NEED space weapons.

Once the world goes into ww3, nukes are used outright.. and economies are destroyed... space WILL be militarised.

When major nations are at war for survivial, you use every means nessecary to win.

Trust me, they wont even think twice about that piece of paper that says ' no weapons in space' when the REAL sh1t happens

I love how K4rupt posts the same site about a few asian officials saying stuff about a war against China and the US in about 3-4 of the threads. What does that mean exactly? So some South Korean and Japanese people think the US could not win against China. There are officials who say the US can, and that the US has nuclear supremacy. Do I need to post that in every thread too?

So most of the world doesn't like the US because of unpopular wars. So what? Public opinion changes faster than anything. If China invades Taiwan, even if they declare independence, it would turn against Chinese agreesion. Especially when the many dead are shown all over the media.

In any case...China doesn't want to weaponize space for one reason...because the US is so much farther ahead. Let's sign a treaty banning weaponizing space as long as Russia and China are still using ICBM's to knock things out of the sky.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I love how K4rupt posts the same site about a few asian officials saying stuff about a war against China and the US in about 3-4 of the threads. What does that mean exactly? So some South Korean and Japanese people think the US could not win against China. There are officials who say the US can, and that the US has nuclear supremacy. Do I need to post that in every thread too?

Um... Retinoid, all I'm saying is that there IS A SHRED of doubt that the U.S. is not fully able to take on China. I'm not saying it is completely true, I'm just countering those who say the United States is COMPLETELY invincible - and we BOTH know that is not true. No need to jump on an attack Retinoid.

So most of the world doesn't like the US because of unpopular wars. So what? Public opinion changes faster than anything. If China invades Taiwan, even if they declare independence, it would turn against Chinese agreesion. Especially when the many dead are shown all over the media.

Oh really? And what do you think the world would think about the United States, again getting itself in a battle that has nothing to do with them on a completely different continent. Taiwan is a Chinese affair - the entire world recognzies this... throw in the "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and I'm sure the entire world would be more than sick of American military policy.

Um... if Taiwan declares independence, the United States has stated that it wuold not back Taiwan up. They warned the lame-duck President of Taiwan from pushing his agenda further that the U.S. would completely drop it's support if he continues what he is doing. So, by the U.S.'s own policy, they wouldn't even be in such a conflict.

In any case...China doesn't want to weaponize space for one reason...because the US is so much farther ahead. Let's sign a treaty banning weaponizing space as long as Russia and China are still using ICBM's to knock things out of the sky.

China doesn't want to weaponize space? lol, Is that why they've conducted those tests?



[edit on 21-1-2007 by k4rupt]

So if a carrier was sunk, Taiwan invaded, etc, the US would be dedicated to attacking China. Keep in mind just how dedicated the US was to fighting the Chinese back in the Korean war. They kicked our asses out of North Korea and we could do little about it. Yes we had the nuke then at that time, but the Chinese had fairly primitive weapons, and Truman chose not to use it. Now they are coming out with state of the art equipment, not to mention their Army is massive.

And even though maybe we could shoot a few of their missles out of the sky, millions upon millions of Americans would still die, all for the bs of a few powerful men in each country who felt insecure about each other. Most of the world already hates us. How would they feel if we went to war with China, especially using Nukes?

China probably will surpass us in the near future. Could we see another Cold War looming ahead? In today's day and age, a war with China would probably be the end of the world. People just need to get their heads out of their asses and resolve differences. Personally I could care less about China surpassing us, and I think we have plenty of problems in our own country to deal with. As long as they don't threaten us militarily, and Taiwan aside - why would they? We buy so many things from them.