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The Ulitimate Crime...

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posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 08:34 AM
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For instance, the persistence of belief in a particular religion is naturally aided if that religion teaches that God punishes disbelief. Such a religion tends to survive if the threatened punishment is sufficiently awful. In contrast, a religion would have trouble keeping converts in line if it taught that infidels are subject after death to only a brief spell of mild discomfort, after which they join the faithful in eternal bliss.

So it is natural that in traditional Christianity and Islam, disbelief became the ultimate crime, and Hell the ultimate torture chamber.

tls.timesonline.co.uk...

Sort of makes sense to me. You can be a child-abuser, mass murderer, fascist despot etc and if you do follow the faith, you can still be favoured by their version of god and allegedly live a life of ultimate pleasure. Myra Hindley, Jeffrey Dahmer, child-abusing priests etc, can all sit with the big man.

However, if you follow another faith, you are hell-bound, if you have no faith, you are hell-bound. Doesn't matter what your actions were, whether you led a good true life, reduced suffering, fought injustice, never intentionally hurt another person - you are hell-bound within certain interpretations of these faiths.

Why is disbelief the ultimate crime?




posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by melatonin
Why is disbelief the ultimate crime?


you and i know the reason for this, mel

disbelief is the ultimate crime because it's not playing the game
if you don't play the game you don't get to win
and if you don't win, the only other option must be losing

it's a fairly primitive line of reasoning, but it's served to keep people in check



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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I had to delete my post and start over lol, I was going to post a rant about how unfair and counterintuitive it is for God to forgive these horrible crimes, while condemning the simple mistake of not believing. but I changed my mind...

The answer to me is that God, if he is there, will forgive you of anything. It's right there he can forgive any transgression (according to the bible and stories of people being saved). It just won't do much good, if you don't believe in him, cause you can't enter heaven if you don't believe in him/it.

How can he not forgive you for a simple mistake of not understanding his existence when he forgives murderers and rapists?

It works out. Both ways can be true. He can forgive anyone for anything, period. He can even forgive you for not believing. But once it comes time for a person to enter heaven (or not) they simply must believe, God cannot do everything for them.

EDIT: Why must they believe? Because apparently if they don't, they cannot accept heaven, and their concious would not be able to go in, because it didn't... That's as close as I can explain my thinking.

I usually take a more agnostic stance, but this is just logical to me. Only for the purpose of discussion, I assume God is real. I'm not trying to testify, lol.

[edit on 18-1-2007 by Novise]


Edn

posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:20 PM
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If your religion can not be questioned or is run on the basis of fear (as in this case, believe what i say or your going to hell) then it cant be much of a true religion when you look at it with a little common sense. Theres a quote from the Buddha that I really like, it goes to show that the truth can stand the test of time without having to put fear into your followers to keep them with you.


Gautama Buddha
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.



posted on Jan, 21 2007 @ 05:29 PM
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But it's very interesting. I know a few christians who claim that Jesus dying on the cross was sufficient. That was it, the debt was paid and we all get to have a great time in heaven.

Which is why I said in some interpretations.



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 10:23 PM
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At the judgement seat it is said that we will be shown all graces rejected or recieved and we will know why we either choose hell or heaven. Are human minds cannot understand what grace is, and God is the only one which searches the hearts.

Now if he searches the hearts, why do we question so fast? Just trust in him, he knows everything and he is the only just judger.

remember, believers like me believe that grace is the only reason why we are good, without which we would be evil deprived of grace.

He knows every heart he created, so I trust all who make it will ect..


Hell is a place that we want to be in, and its our choice. one of his true children will not go to this place. Its a state of soul of that of hitlers or such, completely deprived of grace, a place of hatred of God.


We will see at the judgement seat. Guys, this is going to be the most amazing moment at the end of time, every life will be reviewed before the entire world, every grace rejected or recieved will be show to the world, our sins, Gods judgement, the secret meetings of government who creat wars and unjustly fool the world. Its going to be amazing.



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Now if he searches the hearts, why do we question so fast? Just trust in him, he knows everything and he is the only just judger.


well, see, i find that fishy
your god asks me to give up the thing that has defined me as an individual for as long as i can remember
my constant questioning
your god asks for me to simply trust and have faith
why should i give up that which has had the biggest influence on who i am today?



remember, believers like me believe that grace is the only reason why we are good, without which we would be evil deprived of grace.


would you classify non-believers (such as mel or me) as not having grace, and therefore evil?



He knows every heart he created, so I trust all who make it will ect..


i would just like to point out the slight smirk that the "ect.." brought out in me



Hell is a place that we want to be in, and its our choice. one of his true children will not go to this place. Its a state of soul of that of hitlers or such, completely deprived of grace, a place of hatred of God.


hitlers?
so, would someone not having your divine grace (such as me) be akin to hitler?
how can this thread already have been godwin'd?



We will see at the judgement seat. Guys, this is going to be the most amazing moment at the end of time, every life will be reviewed before the entire world, every grace rejected or recieved will be show to the world, our sins, Gods judgement, the secret meetings of government who creat wars and unjustly fool the world. Its going to be amazing.


what is with the emphasis christianity places on judgement?
honestly, how can god judge us?
that being would be so far removed from the situation that it makes no sense that it could even begin to comprehend
it'd be like sending an alabama judge to oversee the proceedings of a trial on mars...



posted on Jan, 23 2007 @ 09:30 AM
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Jesusistruth: You make it sound like everyone in hell will be like Hitler. No matter what translation of the Bible you prefer: If only a minority go to heaven (With a requisite being total belief in Jesus/God/anything) then I'm sorry but there are going to be a lot of nice people in Hell, hardly a room full of Hitlers. The world has more good people in it than Heaven has room in that scenario. And even if you believe he lets most in, there will always be those good/nice people who simply are unable to accept God.

I really liked what you said about judgement. You are 100% right, there is no need to worry, your heart will be searched by God. If he is our creator and he is just, his decision will be perfect. There is nothing to worry about, because worrying won't do any good. Why would anyone want to go somewhere their heart didn't desire and/or they didn't deserve to be?



posted on Jan, 25 2007 @ 01:57 PM
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Taking something that wellwhatnow said in another thread, about a new form of religion.

I think the likes of Buddhism have a form of this idea already, but why don't all religions just have the perfect faithful going to the great gig in the sky and others who fail forced to work at enlightenment to make it to the gig.

Why the need for eternal infinite punishment of non-conformers?

What does it achieve?

Is it a bit like the ultimate schadenfreude?

Do believers get a sense of joy that they will achieve some ultimate goal and others will suffer eternal torment for growing up in another culture or coming to what they see as a rational decision?

[edit on 25-1-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Jan, 26 2007 @ 08:32 PM
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Mel:

You got it wrong. You can't be those things...but, you could have once been those things. If you follow the faith you are a new creation.

The reason disbelief is so important is because it blocks acquisition of our inheritance: salvation. If you don't know the gift is there you won't accept it.



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by NowAmFound
The reason disbelief is so important is because it blocks acquisition of our inheritance: salvation. If you don't know the gift is there you won't accept it.


mel is referring to disbelief due to the gifts you believe your god gave you
the rational questions that he brings up
how can a being punish you for using the tools it gives you?



posted on Jan, 27 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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The bible never says you can't have doubt, and in fact, it urges us to "question everything." We are never punished for either. In fact, it is this questioning and these doubts that lead us to Him--"those who seek shall find." He gave us that curiosity so that we would find Him. It is those who get stuck in a rut of "unbelief" that can no longer keep searching because their disbelief has closed all the doors. They have ended the game too early.







 
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