suitcase nukes and the

As many of you are aware there have been various news articles and internet web postings over the last two years devoted to the very real possibility that Al Quaida operatives have managed to purchase suitcase nukes from post cold war Soviet organizations and Chechen terror allies. According to George Tenet, former director of the C.I.A., sources have confirmed that at least two such devices have already reached Al Quaida operatives somewhere inside of the main land United States since 9/11.




www.worldnetdaily.com...

But the most disturbing news is that high level U.S. officials now believe at least some of those weapons have been smuggled into the U.S. for use in the near future in major cities as part of this "American Hiroshima" plan, according to an upcoming book, "The Al Qaeda Connection: International Terrorism, Organized Crime and the Coming Apocalypse," by Paul L. Williams, a former FBI consultant.

The weaponry as well as the Al Quaida operatives were smuggled across the southern Mexican border by members of the MS-13 street gang who are responsible for heavy drug and illegal alien trafficking through the Texas and Arizona borders.

This particular article goes into detail more about the actual devices that are to be used in the "American Hiroshima"

"Each suitcase weighed between 50 and 80 kilograms (approximately 110 to 176 pounds) and contained enough fissionable plutonium and uranium to produce an explosive yield in excess of two kilotons," wrote Williams. "One suitcase bore the serial number 9999 and the Russian manufacturing date of 1988. The design of the weapons, Tenet told the president, is simple. The plutonium and uranium are kept in separate compartments that are linked to a triggering mechanism that can be activated by a clock or a call from the cell phone."

To me this scenario is not only possible, but to a very high degree quite likely. There have even been reports of American Muslims migrating away from the major cities into more rural and suburban areas in large numbers over the last several months. Not to say that is a clear sign that something is about to go down, but strange enough for concern.

My question is if this information has been known since 2005, what has our government done in order to prevent this from coming to fruition? The Canadian and Mexican borders definately haven't been properly secured or tightened. There seems to be no alarm within our government organizations in any noticeable way. And even though the U.S. government has known about this for quite some time, is there anything that CAN be done at this stage? Does the Bush administration secretly want a nuclear attack to take place inside of America so that they can officially declare martial law and take away the last remaining rights of it's citizens?

Let's just say in a hypothetical situation that a suitcase nuke were detonated in a major city like New York, what would the results be and what would it mean for the rest of us? Imagine the carnage and the death count, it would make hurricane Katrina seem like a walk in the park by comparison, and FEMA and the U.S. gov couldn't even handle a disaster on that scale properly. I think everyone would agree that Katrina was borched from top to bottom by every state and federal entity involved. New York would be a waste land, Wall street and our financial capital would be in complete ruin which would effectively shut down the entire country financially. This isn't even considering what would be going on in the rest of the country, which would include wide scale panic, disorder, looting, and just overall mayhem. This scenario doesn't even entertain the possibility that more than one city would be hit at once. Is this something that we should be actively preparing and bracing ourselves for? Is this the doomsday scenario that everyone has been dreading? Any thoughts or opinions on how this would and could unfold would be interesting to hear.

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[edit on 18/1/2007 by Mirthful Me]

The watch the latest series of "24" and watch this scenario unfolding.

I beleive that the show "24" is a warning to the pbulic and that it will happen.

The craziest part of that scenario to me would be what our governments response to a nuclear terrorist attack. Obviously there would be no clear "enemy" readily available to attack because there would be no way to prove it. And even if Al Quaida ops were somehow captured after the fact and it was confirmed that they were responsible, who do you attack from there? Would the trigger happy Bush government launch nukes against "supposed" enemies who were thought to be involved in some way, like for instance Iran? A blind response would certainly lead to a full scale nuclear war, and then God help us all.

It would trigger implementation of martial law, suspension of rights and any further elections and the dictatorship of Bush will be born. All muslim will be racially profiled and locked up in concentration camps, under the excuse of for their safety as there would be some public lynching allowed to happen to justify this. Also, those opposing the tearing up of the constitution will also be locked up.

Remaining citizens will be forced to be "chipped" to be registered as US citizens and those opposing will be labelled enemy combatants and locked up aswell, with the excuse that if they do not want to be chipped, then they arent loyal US citizens and have somethng to hide.

This will happen, is just around the corner, and if anyone preaches otherwise is just kidding themselves.

The North American Union is part of this aswell, thats why the US government hasnt cared about reinforcing the southern border for it will soon be removed.

To answer one of the questions, go to the following link to see what the effects of a 1-2kt nuke would be at a given location. Remember to set '2' in the yield box.

Nuke Modeling

Although the damage and resulting chaos would be significant a device of this size would be pretty limited compared to a tactical nuke. Since it would most certainly be a ground detonation much of its effects would be contained. It would, however, create a greater amount of fallout becuase of the ground detonation.

The whole debate about the suitcase devices revolves around their age. The nuclear material degrades over time and the devices themselves need regular and complex maintenance. There is some speculation that the neutron generator (part of the trigger) relies on Po-210 which has a usable life of less than six months.

Wait a minute. New Congress. New Budget.

Damn. More for Homeland Security.

Washed out and up.

I, for one, do not believe that we have such a problem with terrorists. I believe the government is behind it, but I'll say this anyway.



If the United States government cannot protect it's citizens from the terroristic threat, as the Federal government was meant to do under the building of such government within the terms of the Constitution, then I guess it will be us, with our 2nd Amendment, to protect ourselves.

The Federal Government, by the terms set forth in the Constitution, is to protect it's citizens, by necessary means. Those means, however, do not include taking our freedoms away to make us "think" we are safe.

Infoholic, I am a strong supporter of the second amendment just like you, but how can you shoot what you can't see? There are so many differing nationalities and groups of people within the U.S. that trying to discern who is a threat and who isn't would be impossible. Armed Americans would do absolutely no good in this situation because they wouldn't even be relevant until after a detonation has occured. It seems to me that the federal government is also helpless in this case because any terrorist cells operating here are most likely posing as common citizens just as they did before 911. I think the reaction by Americans after the fact would be severe and there would most likely be internment camps similar to Guantanamo popping up all over the country. It still wouldnt change the fact that a nuclear device just devestated an American city. The casualties initially would be horrible, but the effects of the radiation would make such a place uninhabitable. I think the economy would stall and collapse within weeks, people would stop going to work and start operating in panic mode with mass looting and general unrest. Also please address the issue of retaliation, would an internal attack like this be warrant for our military to launch nukes against supposed enemies who have supported and funded terrorism? To me an attack like this this would almost cripple our way of life entirely.

Also on another note, I have been reading quite a bit about a different type of potential attack since the Russian spy case has recently unfolded. According to CIA officials they are now concerned with terrorists purchasing large amounts of Thallium, the same radiocative agent used in the poisoning death Alexander Litvenenko. This stuff is readily available on the Russian black market to anyone with the money to buy it. If enough Thallium was released into the water supply of a major city not only would it make millions of people terribly ill, many resulting in likely death, but it would taint the water supply for many years making the city uninhabitable. Scary stuff IMO.

US intelligence has a pretty good idea of where the money comes from that supports terrorists. My guess is that the word has been put out that if the US is attacked with a WMD and that attack can be linked to a rogue group, the assets of any individual or company that provides support and/or funding to that group will be fair game. The other upside is that we wouldn't have to retaliate with nuclear weapons (which would be a very, very bad idea). Just some conventional air/cruise strikes could bankrupt the financiers of these groups. We just need the excuse.

The key word there is IF any link could be established to an existing nation or corporate entity that would fund such an operation. This type of terrorism would most likely be funded by hidden backers, and if investigated could lead to the Saudi royals, the Iranian government and even Chinese and Russian agencies who would benefit from such an attack. Even then we are still left with the fact that one of our major cities has been leveled, not to mention the psychological impact that a nuclear attack would leave on the entire country, and we would still be in a position of not having a clear and easily identifiable culprit to retaliate against. If our economy is crippled and wide scale panic ensues, which it certainly would, then I could see this as a perfect opportunity for the government to trash the constitution entirely an establish military rule within the first week of such an attack taking place. I dont have a lot of faith that we would ever recover from something like this. Just think of how the country has changed since 9/11 happened, and that was a small scale incident casualty and damage wise compared to a nuclear explosion. And the fact that these weapons are ALREADY HERE says to me that the terrorists are simply biding their time and waiting patiently for the right opportunity to strike. I would hate to be living in a largely populated city when this happened because it will be chaos like we have never experienced in the history of our country.

I use to think an attack in NYC would be devastating, UNTIL I considered another scenario:

The State of the Union Address is an annual event in which the President of the United States reports on the status of the country, normally to a joint session of the U.S. Congress (the House of Representatives and the Senate).

...

Sitting near the front of the chamber are the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Justices of the Supreme Court, and the members of the President's Cabinet. Customarily, one cabinet member (the designated survivor) does not attend, in order to provide continuity in the line of succession in the event that a catastrophe disables the President, the Vice President, and other succeeding officers gathered in the House chamber. Additionally, since the September 11, 2001 attacks, a few members of Congress have been asked to relocate to undisclosed locations for the duration of the speech.

Wikipedia Source

Ok, so how do we continue if the President, his entire cabinet (less one member), the Vice President, the US Congress (less a tiny number of designated survivors), and the Joint Chiefs (military heads), are all taken out in one attack? For the 2006 State of the Union address, there were 5 designated survivors, 2 from the house, 2 from the senate, and 1 cabinet member. Can the Federal government operate with 5 people running the show? Can our military effectively protect our interests if the Commander in Chief and the Joint Chiefs are taken out, and the Fed is likely being inneficiently run by 5 people. Our banks are backed by the Fed, will they fail? This is by far the scariest scenario i can envision. Now consider, to do this, a 1 kiloton blast need NOT take out any sizable portion of a city, IT ONLY NEEDS TO OBLITERATE ONE BUILDING ! So who's DUMB idea was it to place 2/3rds of our government under one roof, at the same time?

"Does the Bush administration secretly want a nuclear attack to take place inside of America so that they can officially declare martial law and take away the last remaining rights of it's citizens? "

I don't buy that at all. IMO I believe al quaida will strike some time in 2009. The reason I say '09 is look at thier history for big striks. They hit the WTC in 1993 a month into Clintons first term and from our weak responce they figured that the US was week and soft. Then in GWB first year they struck on 09-11-2001. They didn't expect us to hit them back like we did. Now they now what GWB is will do if they hit us again during his last few years as president. I belive they will wait to see who wins in '08 and will strike in '09 especially if they think we elect a anti war democrat. They will believe the dems to be soft. To act like Clinton or Carter did. I would hope that if a anti war dem is elected and we are nuked that they would go FDR on al quaida and not jimmah carter.

There is some speculation that the neutron generator (part of the trigger) relies on Po-210 which has a usable life of less than six months.

Forgive me this thought...

Litveninko was poisoned with Po-210. So were the others he was in contact with.

Is it possible - possibilities being what they are, but I mean think about it - is it possible that they were reconstructing a new trigger for the suitcase nuke? Possible that they had gotten the Po-210, and were building a replacement trigger for one which had expired?

And if so, to whom would the suitcase nuke go? Since they were in the UK rather than the US, as the OP's post posits...one would think, given Litvinenko's predeliction towards the Chechnyn rebels, would it have gone to them? Or would it have been sold to the highest builder? Would it perhaps have been a replacement for one here in the US?

Perhaps...just perhaps...they were building a replacement trigger, and it was to be sold/given to those who have the suitcase nukes either here in the US or in the UK. One of the most common "can't happen because"s has just been removed...and the plan is now much more feasible.

I am not liking this train of thought...someone derail it, please...

Regards~
Aimless

I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility. But the reality is that if all the operatives inside of the U.S. need to activate and detonate the weapons that are already here is a switch or some other type of componant, reasoning would obviously dictate that something like that could be smuggled across our southern border just as easily as a pound of marijuana or an illegal alien. With a 6 month window to detonate it could already be here and the plan may be in the works as we speak. Realistically it could be done at will provided our border agents didn't find the proverbial needle in a haystack and somehow intercept it at our border before the switch could be smuggled inside. Even then who is to say that they wouldn't simply keep trying until they succeeded. I hate to say it but it doesn't seem like the powers that be are in a state of panic and nobody seems to really be all that concerned. How often has anyone out there heard about this topic in mainstream news and media? Any large city in this country would be a potential powder keg if a nuclear attack took place. One wek with no food supply, no electricity and no running water or communications and millions of people would revert to cave man tactics and disregard all order in favor of self preservation. Glad I moved back to the sticks and got yhe hell out of L.A.

I wouldn't rule that out as a possibility. But the reality is that if all the operatives inside of the U.S. need to activate and detonate the weapons that are already here is a switch or some other type of componant, reasoning would obviously dictate that something like that could be smuggled across our southern border just as easily as a pound of marijuana or an illegal alien. With a 6 month window to detonate it could already be here and the plan may be in the works as we speak. Realistically it could be done at will provided our border agents didn't find the proverbial needle in a haystack and somehow intercept it at our border before the switch could be smuggled inside. Even then who is to say that they wouldn't simply keep trying until they succeeded. I hate to say it but it doesn't seem like the powers that be are in a state of panic and nobody seems to really be all that concerned. How often has anyone out there heard about this topic in mainstream news and media? Any large city in this country would be a potential powder keg if a nuclear attack took place. One week with no food supply, no electricity and no running water or communications and millions of people would revert to cave man tactics and disregard all order in favor of self preservation. Glad I moved back to the sticks and got the hell out of L.A. when I did.

Diabolic, see, your response is all wrong. You're supposed to derail that train of thought, not develop the idea. Good grief!

I wish I could get out of this area. I can't, not yet; however, the moment I can, I will be north and outta here...and outta any "large" city.

Sigh.

Regards~
Aimless

Originally posted by Aimless Searcher
Litveninko was poisoned with Po-210. So were the others he was in contact with.

Is it possible - possibilities being what they are, but I mean think about it - is it possible that they were reconstructing a new trigger for the suitcase nuke? Possible that they had gotten the Po-210, and were building a replacement trigger for one which had expired?

Perhaps...just perhaps...they were building a replacement trigger.

I am not liking this train of thought...someone derail it, please...

Regards~
Aimless

I wont derail that train, but I can send it barrelling out of control for the nearest soft target.

As I have posted elsewhere on this board, my take on the Litveninko affair was that his poisoning, and the contamination of those in his party, was the result of an accidental mishandling of a Polonium-210 trigger.

I believe that the trigger (possibly/probably a "past-shelf-life" example from a Russian nuke) was brought to the meeting in London as a "proof of access"; bona fides that the person in question actually had access to nuclear components and/or weapons!

That access would be most usful to the Chechnyans Litveninko supported: a Nuke in Chechnyan hands would be a very effective leverage against over-whelming Russian military "oppressors". And the irony of a Russian nuke being used to thwart the mighty Russian state could not have escaped the fancy of the rebels...or their supporters!

But here's where that train starts to pick up steam.

One of Litveninko's friends happens to be an exiled Russian oil billionaire (and no great love of Putin's Russian gov't); can we say "Bankroll"?

The last person to meet with Litveninko, before he realized he'd been poisoned, was Mario Scaramella, who had earlier in his career reported that He had developed info on a couple of Russian nuke torpedos supposedly "lost" off the Italian coast.

Might "some one" have found those torpedos? And given that a submarine might be expected to remain out-of-port, unable to resupply, for many months at a time, mightn't the triggering and fissile components of a Russian nuke torpedo remain effective much longer than just 3-6 months?

Runaway Train!

My Fear is that there is something far more powerful than a 1-4 kiloton suitcase nuke loose out there; we may have a fully armed nuclear tordepo lurking like a limpet mine on the keel of the next cargo ship or oil tanker to enter a major port city.

No border patrol could stop it, no dock-side cargo scanner will pick it up.

It never even has to leave the port; indeed, a nuke detonated in say, the port of Chicago would take out not only a good chunk of a major US city, it would cripple a major part of the nation's food and produce distribution network, destroy a major rail and air transportation hub, and strike at the very heartland of the nation.

Shocked, bloodied, seething, and hungry for food and revenge, the people of the US would be easy prey for any demagogue ready to lead them to his bidding.

Wow Bhadhidar, that definately makes sense! An attack like that would be catastrophic, and the worst part is that I seriously doubt anyone at all would be suspecting a nuclear torpedo attack. Even worse, there are ground based nuclear weapons supposedly already buried inside of the mainland U.S. dating back to the cold war and some speculate that ex KGB agents are working along side of Al Quaida members to locate and retrieve these weapons for use in a detonation.

You get a WATS vote for your post, what a terrifying concept.

Thank You BlackOps!

Now I think we should all just quietly step away from the big city and find a nice safe and cozy bunker!

Polonium 210 initiators are in general only used by people that can't build surge tubes or zippers due to the life span issues and lack of weapon yield control.

Most Po210 initiators are Urchin type internal initiators, too, so you can't just replace the unit from the outside, you have to dismantle the physics package to replace them.

Po210 is also really tough to get, because you have to bake it up in a reactor out of bismuth. You can't just make some in a chemistry lab. In order for someone to create Po210, they'd have to have a good sized research reactor.

Thus most Soviet weapons don't use Po210 initiators.

However, a lot of initiators use tritium so they run out over time as well, they just don't do it quite so fast and they're invariably external initiators. So they're a lot easier to maintain. None the less, a couple of years and they won't work either.

As for the torpedoes, I'm not that informed on Russian weapon design. But most small nukes that need to have a fairly good yield are boosted. That means that such weapons will have to be maintained about once a year. If the torpedoes have gone without maintenance that long they probably wouldn't detonate.