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for catholics: Why do you view women as spiritually inferior?

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posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i just think that myths should be taken as what they are
tiny shreds of truth wrapped in very thick shells of falsehoods


why start this thread if it is all based on old myths???

yes, the traditions of the old days (and even today) allowed men and women to have very different daily jobs...

this is true with almost all societies in human history...

its not because women were viewed as spiritually inferior (in this case)...

this is fact and the facts are all that i have posted here...

these are the unwritten rules...

now, what do they say about rules???

oh yes, they are made to be broken...

but, they are in place to be followed...






posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL



KJV: Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


is peter saying here that the wife is "the weaker vessel"???

if so, this is pretty new to me...


Though i`m not Catholic

I bolded it for better clarity.

Yes its possible that prayers could be hindered.

If for instance a husband is harsh toward his wife,she may be closed to her husband or vice versa,the two are supposed to be one and are seen as one by God.

So sometimes the relationship needs to be put right before prayers are heard,hence the advice to treat her as(for another example fine china)the weaker vessel.



Ephesians 5:23-25

23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Thats quite a responsibility to be given and if husbands treat their wives in such a manner it would not seem sexist or demeaning even if the wife maybe spiritually stronger.


[edit on 18-1-2007 by gps777]



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do i claim that catholics see women as spiritually inferior?
simply because they dont' allow women to become priests


And men can not become nuns. I'll call it a draw.



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:43 AM
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Originally posted by Classified Info

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do i claim that catholics see women as spiritually inferior?
simply because they dont' allow women to become priests


And men can not become nuns. I'll call it a draw.


But why shouldn't they?

It's not a draw, just more evidence of sexual discrimination, of the absolute determination of particular roles.

Men can become nurses, child-carers, almost every stereotypical female job can be taken by a man if they so wish.

But religion has special dispensation to discriminate...

[edit on 18-1-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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maybe jesus was following that old sexist doctrine

Maybe Jesus was doing exactly what He wanted to ... and being DIVINE he did it perfectly.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
today, the virgin mary would not be allowed to become a deacon, priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope


So what? She wouldn't have been allowed to be that in Christ's time either. Her own Son didn't want her to be ... so why should we? Oh ... and those are POSITIONS in the church and they have nothing to do with the spirituality of people. There are priests who are saints and there are priests who are in hell. There are women who are saints and there are women who are in hell. Those POSITIONS you listed are jobs. Spiritual superiority isn't needed to fill them.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
what about all the rampant sexism in the new testament?


... and what do those have to do with the statement that Catholics view women as spiritually inferior? Also - you see sexism in those passages whereas many scripture scholars see deeper meanings.


Originally posted by Edn
don't think that just because Jesus may have been the son of God that he should think any differently, ... he was after all only human.


No He isn't 'only human'. He is DIVINE and human. Perfect. And He did exactly what He wished. If He wanted to break the human rules of not doing work on the Sabbath then He did so - healing on the Sabbath. He also allowed his apostles to pick grain on the Sabbath to eat - in clear violation of the human laws. If He had wanted to have women priests, He would have had them at the last supper and He would have ordained them.



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Is it possible that there simply were no women that Jesus felt were qualified at the time?


The Blessed Virgin Mary, who is the Immaculate Conception and the Holy Mother of God has a rather impressive spiritual resume. If anyone was qualified it would have been her. .... and she wasn't invited to be a priest.


Is it possible that the women of the time were all pretty busy caring for families and perhaps didn't even have the desire to be leaders and follow Jesus?


Sure. However the bible clearly speaks of women who followed him. It speaks of Mary Magdellen, Mary of Salome, Martha was deeply spiritual, Mary his mother, Sacred Tradition speaks of Veronica .... there were plenty around. But you are right, most were taking care of their families I'm sure.



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
let us get back on track - the topic is christian sexism


No. The topic was that you were claiming that Catholics viewed women as spiritually inferior. THAT was the topic.

Have you figured out yet that Catholics do not?



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by Classified Info

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do i claim that catholics see women as spiritually inferior?
simply because they dont' allow women to become priests


And men can not become nuns. I'll call it a draw.


monks are the male versions of nuns

it's not a draw to say the least

and FF, if women cannot fulfill the most vital spiritual rituals in catholicism (the sacraments) they are obviously spiritually inferior

[edit on 1/18/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if women cannot fulfill the most vital spiritual rituals in catholicism (the sacraments) they are obviously spiritually inferior


No. Not at all.

Mary, the Holy Mother of God, was (and is) obviously vastly spiritually superior to all the men in Christ's time (as well as ours)... and yet he still chose 12 men to be the priests. 12 men .. one of whom betrayed him and 10 of whom ran away when they were needed the most. Only one of the 12 even stuck around.

Mary the Mother of Christ; Mary Magdellen; and the other women who followed the group; all stayed at the foot of the cross listening to Christ's last words and lamenting for Him. His mother STOOD at the foot of the cross .. didn't even sit. She knew that it was a holy moment. The men ran.

All the men were spiritually inferior to the women and yet Christ still chose the men to run the church. Why? Only Christ knows.

... but YOU are confusing the roles that God mapped out for men and women with holiness. No where does it say that a person has to be spiritually superior to others in order to be a priest. The man only need be called by God for the JOB.



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
monks are the male versions of nuns


That has got to be the dumbest thing you've ever said. LOL!
Talk about ignorance.



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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FlyersFan, what about women who believe they are called to the priesthood by god?

what do you think they should do?



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by rocknroll
That has got to be the dumbest thing you've ever said. LOL!
Talk about ignorance.


monks are essentially nuns
there is nothing dumb about what i said
monks take vows beyond the average vows
many of those vows correspond to the vows of various orders of nuns

i don't see what is so dumb about what i said
can you explain?

hell, even wikipedia puts forth that nuns are essentially the equivalent of monks
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 1/18/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
BE AN ATHIEST FOR JESUS, I AM!

It makes sense, in a humorous way.

I'm not being sarcastic, i really do like the slogan: "An athiest for Jesus"

If that doesn't confuse some people soo much they start to think, i don't know what would.

Priceless! I say print it out on some shirts, and see if it sells.


Well, I don't claim authorship. I got it from Dawkins, who got it from elsewhere.

I wouldn't get too excited, there are some words attributed to Jesus that can be interpreted negatively I think. But one the whole, his general message is a good one.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by melatonin
Well, I don't claim authorship. I got it from Dawkins, who got it from elsewhere.

I wouldn't get too excited, there are some words attributed to Jesus that can be interpreted negatively I think. But one the whole, his general message is a good one.


true
the few qutoations are good
but there are many things jesus didn't contradict in the hebrew scriptures
allowing people to go back and stay with those hateful beliefs
hell, even most modern jews don't view their scriptures as infallible in the same way many evangelical christians do



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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Regarding the "Apostles were only male" argument...there are many people now days who disagree. I don't know what I personally believe regarding the subject, but a lot of historians and other believers believe that there were female apostles that were omitted from the bible. Such as the article here

I pondered this and felt that maybe in ancient times, women couldn't become priests and what not because there duty was in the home. Then I thought more on it and realized if a womans job was in the home back then, then why were women allowed to become nuns in the first place? Nuns have to take a vow of celebacy just like a priest does, therefore she can't have children or any of which includes a womans supposed duties.

While monks can move on to become priests and what not, a nun can't.

Whatever the ancient reasonings were, I think the world has changed and religion has changed and we certainly don't need as much procreation as in ancient times since the world is quite populated enough...so why can't the rule change?



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

and FF, if women cannot fulfill the most vital spiritual rituals in catholicism (the sacraments) they are obviously spiritually inferior


The burdens are equal.
The obligations are equal.
The responsibilities are equal.
The tasks assigned to either gender are equal.

I believe reasons can be found for the seperation and differences in their responsibilities, if you look at their tasks.

Catholic Women do preach doctrine. Catholic women do teach parish members. They just do it with the children, in classrooms. I don't subscribe to the belief that Catholics think their (females) role is no less important.

Given the state of affairs in the world, it seems the problem with human behavior these days lies in the decisions (international policies) made by the men who rule the world.

Do you honestly think there are more men in this world who listen more to women than they do men? If they do, what is there motivation/incentive for doing so?

I think most men would be more apt to listen to men more than they would women. Men seem to exhibit a certain pride that doesn't allow them to admit to themselves that they are inferior to women. Hence, it is up to men to convince men they are wrong.


Perhaps this is part of the reason why men lead in Catholic church services, (although women do participate in readings), and women dominate as Catholic school teachers, where men are the minority.

Why not be upset that there are not more male teachers in Catholic schools?

The arguements, and counterpoints are unlimited i believe. And this is why this thread will more than likely be one that sticks around for awhile. It is also a contraversial subject, with a powerful title.

This thread will certainly be a long lived one.
Good choice for a threads subject matter



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan


No. Not at all.

Mary, the Holy Mother of God, was (and is) obviously vastly spiritually superior to all the men in Christ's time (as well as ours)... and yet he still chose 12 men to be the priests. 12 men ..

Bolded mine

This is what Christ said...



Matthew 11:10-12

10This is the one about whom it is written:
" 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist;
Link



Also this needs close attention...



Mathew 12

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."[g]
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.




one of whom betrayed him and 10 of whom ran away when they were needed the most.


Christ needed them at this momment?? No at all.

Your missing the point that Christ had to die.The disiples had to live to spread the word.Maybe that too was why Christ chose them to be his disciples.



Mathew 26
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Christ says here in the above He can call on God for more than 12 legions of angels,do you still think Christ needed anyone else but God?

He was no mummies boy sook.



posted on Jan, 21 2007 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
FlyersFan, what about women who believe they are called to the priesthood by god? What do you think they should do?


They are wrong. It's just that simple.

God doesn't call women to the priesthood. They are wrong. They may be called to holiness, or to a religious life as a nun, but definately NOT the priesthood. It's their own ego interfering with their decernment about what God wants them to do.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I believe reasons can be found for the seperation and differences in their responsibilities, if you look at their tasks........


WOW. Your whole post was excellent. Very insightful Esoteric Teacher. If I had any more WATS, you'd be getting it from me right now!



[edit on 1/21/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jan, 21 2007 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
Your missing the point that Christ had to die.


Oh my, No, I didn't miss that point. That is the entire point of his coming.


do you still think Christ needed anyone else but God?


Christ needed the Apostles. He needed Mary to be born from. He allowed Himself to need them. Yes, at any time He could have called down the angels to do the jobs of the apostles, but that's not what he decided to do.

On the night He was betrayed He asked three apostles - Peter, James, John - to stay awake and pray with Him in the garden. He knew that He was soon to be killed. Each time He came back He lamented that the apostles had fallen asleep. 'could you not stay awake with me for one hour?' He desired them to be involved. They all ran away and failed in the beginning. All but the women.


Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
Regarding the "Apostles were only male" argument...there are many people now days who disagree.


And they are wrong. I understand why they think that, because in other parts of the bible women are notoriously ignored, but in the case of Christ, this isn't so.

The bible is very clear when it comes to the women around Christ and what they do. It specifically discuss' His mother Mary, Mary Magdellen, Martha, Mary Salome, etc etc.

[edit on 1/21/2007 by FlyersFan]



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