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Germans Force "Thought Crime" on EU

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posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:01 PM
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Jailing Holocaust Revisionists in their own country is obviously not enough for the "guilt-ridden" German Government. Using it's position in the EU, the German Government is trying to create legislation that will force all 27 nations of the EU to impose jail-time on "Holocaust Deniers". Perhaps if they are successful we will eventually have three "super-states" to control us; Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia.
 



www.nytimes.com
“We have always said that it can’t be the case that it should still be acceptable in Europe to say the Holocaust never existed and that six million Jews were never killed,” she said. Under the German proposal, she said, those who deny the Nazi slaughter of Jews during World War II could face up to three years in prison if convicted.

Ms. Zypries said the proposal, which will be debated by the bloc’s justice ministers in the next six months, would also seek to criminalize racist declarations that are an incitement to violence against a person or group. The aim, she said, was to harmonize national legal systems in their approach to combating racism and xenophobia.

Unifying the handling of hate crimes in countries with vastly different legal cultures could prove difficult, legal analysts said. European leaders have been unanimous in condemning those who deny the Holocaust, and they sharply criticized the Iranian government for sponsoring a recent conference that sought to cast doubt on it.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


The German Government is about to embark on a venture that would have done the Nazi's proud. Conquering other nations by re-writing their laws and introducing draconian legislation that will curb forms of free-thinking on the European continent. And without a drop of blood.

Personally, I just don't think this is possible. Surely there are still nations in Europe with enough back-bone to shout down this ridiculous attempt to control their laws.




posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:15 PM
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This is not thought crime.

Nazism is illegal. The holocaust deniers are NOT historians and researchers, they are wanna be nazis.



Its pretty horrendous to say that this would 'do the nazis proud'. The executed millions of people, tried to destroy an entire group of human beings. Continuing the fight against nazi resurgence is hardly 'nazism'.

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:21 PM
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Well I hope that this is stopped, it is a violation of a human right,
and most likely a violation of a civil right in modt European countries.

No one should ever be inprisoned, or even become in trouble for
thinking or saying what they think.

If they join some neo-NAZI group and say attack someone or trash
a museum, than yes they should get in trouble, but telling someone
that they are going to prison for thinking something and saying what
they think, is a deplorable act, and in my opinion a crime against
humanity.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:26 PM
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Yes it definitely is punishment for a "thought crime". I should have the right to think whatever I want, no matter how wrong or stupid it may be. If I think the holocaust never happened or that (fill in race, creed, religion, nationality, ethnicity etc...) are the cause of all that's wrong in the world, so be it. Granted there are social consequences for thinking this way but there should NOT be government prosecution because of it. So long as I don't act out (ie kill or attempt to kill or call for violence) then what am I doing wrong? Thinking differently!?

All I can say to that is Bull S!



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:31 PM
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Forgive my ignorance, but this is already the law in most of Europe, isn't it?

I think it's an internal European matter, if they want to make this illegal let them, I don't think the U.S. should have an opinion on it, although it would be an unacceptable law here.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 11:52 PM
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Well, I guess us US citizens have to hold our breath while in Europe for fear of exciting the PC police, thankful they cant read minds, yet. :shk:



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 12:01 AM
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westpoint
should have the right to think whatever I want, no matter how wrong or stupid it may be.

This is not about thought, clearly.

If a person says 'go out and start a violent revolution against the state, long live allah/hitler/marx", we'd sensibly lock them up. (or at least it'd be sensible to lock them up).

Holocaust Deniers are NOT merely people who question the holocaust. The holocaust demonstrably occured; these people are nazi propagandists.

They are, in effect, Nazis. The Nazi party is verbooten in Germany, for obvious reasons.


So long as I don't act out (ie kill or attempt to kill or call for violence)

Thats just it. People that are denying the holocaust are nazis effectively calling for violence. They are propagating nazi propaganda, and trying to further the neo-nazi agenda. Just like radical muslim clerics that call the US 'satanic', etc are furthering the Islamist agenda.


for fear of exciting the PC police

It has nothing to do with being poltically correct, its about suppressing a dangerous, revolutionary party.


djonhnsto77
although it would be an unacceptable law here.

It'd be acceptable here. The United States used to outlaw communism. Congress used to investigate private citizens to see if they were communist, people went to jail over this. That was because the Communists were calling for violent revolution to overthrow the existing state's, steal private property, and install a socialist dictatorship.




And, FWIW, the Germans aren't forcing this on anyone. They are propsing it be EU wide law. Thats not using 'force'.

[edit on 15-1-2007 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:17 AM
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This is absolutely disgusting. The facts of the holocaust are far from concrete and should be examined and discussed like every other 'big' event in history. Why are the 6 million jews always mentioned, what about the 14 million other people who were also killed? It brings to mind 7/7 & 9/11 & Iraq, questioning thought discouraged and official lies to keep it that way. Yet again free, questioning thinkers are labelled evil - 'nazi propagandists', anti semites, terrorists...



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Frakkerface
This is absolutely disgusting. The facts of the holocaust are far from concrete and should be examined and discussed like every other 'big' event in history. Why are the 6 million jews always mentioned, what about the 14 million other people who were also killed?


So are you one of those people who thinks the U.S. should tell the rest of the world what to do?...

Like another member said, if the Europeans decide to accept this, then let them. They are not calling for the execution of the holocaust deniers, but it is true that deniers are mostly trying to push this because they have an agenda.


Originally posted by Frakkerface
It brings to mind 7/7 & 9/11 & Iraq, questioning thought discouraged and official lies to keep it that way. Yet again free, questioning thinkers are labelled evil - 'nazi propagandists', anti semites, terrorists...


This really has nothing to do with this discussion.... why is it that some people always want to make every thread into a "9/11, the U.S. govenrment is at fault" thread? When most of the time the people who support these theories are not even aware of simple facts.

Anywas, thought is not being "discouraged".... What I really detest and will always respond with facts is the exagerations and made up lies which plague most, if not all of the "9/11, 7/11 etc conspiracy theories"....

There are groups of people who just want to spread their own political agenda, and they will do anything and everything to make sure that agenda survives.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Muaddib: Fact: the winners ALWAYS manipulate history for their own benefits, to further their agenda.

So we could ask ourselves if the number 6 millions was hyped for the creation of Israël, a state that I would like to see dismantled peacefully.

I think the revisionists shouldn't be jailed until they do a REAL crime.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by MuaddibSo are you one of those people who thinks the U.S. should tell the rest of the world what to do?...


No and im not sure why you ask that?!



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:21 AM
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any reference to 1984 is ok by me



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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my take on it is this....I don't have a problem with certain forms and specific expressions of speech being limited/forbidden. I'm not sure the crime (in my eyes) is denying the Holocaust as much as the attitudes and ideas that created the Holocaust.

The equivalent in the US would be those who say that the KKK wasn't really all that bad. Historically, one could make the case that the KKK in it's most horrid and ugly form during the middle of the century, and continuing today, is deplorable. However, that was not the original purpose of the KKK. Should people go to jail for saying that? No.

I think that it's quite useful to prove consistently over time why a set of ideas is wrong. It's certainly not hard to do in either circumstance, and I think that those on the side of the KKK and the Anti-Holocaust movement come out looking the fools they are.

I wonder, in some ways, if this isn't a way for the Germans to try and silence debate on the Holocaust for good.....so as to begin it's slow removal from the human psyche?



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
Muaddib: Fact: the winners ALWAYS manipulate history for their own benefits, to further their agenda.

So we could ask ourselves if the number 6 millions was hyped for the creation of Israël, a state that I would like to see dismantled peacefully.

I think the revisionists shouldn't be jailed until they do a REAL crime.


Everyone is always trying to say that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. But, truthfully....so is Lebanon, Jordan and parts of Syria. Palestine did not exist before the Romans made the name. And there were Jews there in large numbers at the time.

Why is it so hard to see that the whole question is largely about hate for the Jews?



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:08 AM
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I'm British.

I do not doubt the holocaust occurred.

I totally object to being dictated to.

This law must not happen.

Sadly, the UK has been going through an authoritarian phase of late what with ID cards, national databases, legislation restricting or banning freedom of speech, emotional blackmail (i.e. being hounded for having certain non-"PC" views).

You cannot have a democracy where one group of people dictate what is acceptable to say and what is not.

Even in principle I do not support this kind of dogma. You either have freedom of speech or you do not. There is *NO* halfway house. Without freedom of speech you have no democracy as not all views can be represented.

I fear this is happening in my country now. Of course, you can only prove it when its too late.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by phoenix103
I'm British.

I do not doubt the holocaust occurred.

I totally object to being dictated to.

This law must not happen.

Sadly, the UK has been going through an authoritarian phase of late what with ID cards, national databases, legislation restricting or banning freedom of speech, emotional blackmail (i.e. being hounded for having certain non-"PC" views).

You cannot have a democracy where one group of people dictate what is acceptable to say and what is not.

Even in principle I do not support this kind of dogma. You either have freedom of speech or you do not. There is *NO* halfway house. Without freedom of speech you have no democracy as not all views can be represented.

I fear this is happening in my country now. Of course, you can only prove it when its too late.


I agree with you entirely. I don't believe that the way to eradicate ideas is by making it illegal to express them, but rather by making the truth of the matter so plainly obvious that only morons could argue the point. At least then we'd know who they are.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:21 AM
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Why is it so hard to see that the whole question is largely about hate for the Jews?

More Israël... I would say that 15% is against the jews, and the rest against Israël and their history of crimes against humanity.




Everyone is always trying to say that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. But, truthfully....so is Lebanon, Jordan and parts of Syria. Palestine did not exist before the Romans made the name. And there were Jews there in large numbers at the time.

Well, why not make a bi-partisan country? That's what I would like. But the zionist government is full of criminals and with the propaganda, the majority of zionists believe all the crap they say. I don't think most of palestinians and israëlis hate eachothers, it's the zionist government who doesn't want peace and a common state with palestine.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by phoenix103
I'm British.

I do not doubt the holocaust occurred.

I totally object to being dictated to.

This law must not happen.

Sadly, the UK has been going through an authoritarian phase of late what with ID cards, national databases, legislation restricting or banning freedom of speech, emotional blackmail (i.e. being hounded for having certain non-"PC" views).

You cannot have a democracy where one group of people dictate what is acceptable to say and what is not.

Even in principle I do not support this kind of dogma. You either have freedom of speech or you do not. There is *NO* halfway house. Without freedom of speech you have no democracy as not all views can be represented.

I fear this is happening in my country now. Of course, you can only prove it when its too late.


I agree with you on all points, especially the part about you either have free speech or you don't - no middle ground.

Further, legislation for these kinds of things rarely work. These so-called neo-Nazis (or any other such group) will still find a way to operate underground. It also keeps youth from asking questions to find out the truth about the Holocaust. Dangerous.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo


Why is it so hard to see that the whole question is largely about hate for the Jews?

More Israël... I would say that 15% is against the jews, and the rest against Israël and their history of crimes against humanity.




Everyone is always trying to say that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands. But, truthfully....so is Lebanon, Jordan and parts of Syria. Palestine did not exist before the Romans made the name. And there were Jews there in large numbers at the time.

Well, why not make a bi-partisan country? That's what I would like. But the zionist government is full of criminals and with the propaganda, the majority of zionists believe all the crap they say. I don't think most of palestinians and israëlis hate eachothers, it's the zionist government who doesn't want peace and a common state with palestine.


I'd have to say that I pin that burden just as evenly on the Palestinians if not more. It'd be very hard for me to trust a group of people who say they want peace after 60 years of blowing up innocents in the street. To say that the Israelis are the sole agressors is a mistatement of fact.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by graphicsman1977
Why is it so hard to see that the whole question is largely about hate for the Jews?


I have no desire to try and play policeman here but this is an interesting topic and one that would benefit hugely from not being dragged off topic into yet another anti zionist/anti semitic argument.

Holocaust denial is indeed a crime in a number of European countries and whilst this may appear to be a matter of concern to those who believe in the unalienable right to free speech you have to understand the context of such a law in post war Europe and, in particular, countries which were under direct German rule during the war.

Germany and Austria especially have always been acutely aware of the existence of neo-Nazi groups, whilst Eastern block countries such as Poland, Lithuania and the old Czechoslovakia would have been in a similar position if not for the oppressive influence of the Soviet regime as has been indicated by the growth of such groups in Poland in recent years.

The view has always been that a new descent into Naziism, facism or radical nationalist politics by any other name was simply unacceptable and horrifying for Germany and the ability to use the supposed myth of the holocaust as a rallying point for such political groups was a risk they were simply not prepared to take.

As for the present proposal, let's not fall into the old anti EU trap of describing the legislative process as one country forcing its views on the remaining member states. Germany has the ability to sponsor and support the proposal when it holds the EU presidency but such a measure could only be passed into European law with the full support of the European Commission. An attempt was made to do something similar two years ago which failed and it is likely to fail again with the UK one of the prime movers against the proposal.



[edit on 15-1-2007 by timeless test]



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