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My ultimate question (because it is as ultimate as I have gotten so far)

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posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:16 AM
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I don't expect facts or perfect answers, it would be crazy to expect that. Rather I seek opinions and your understandings of how you think it would work out.

The question is: Just to what extent is a soul free after death, once it has devoted it's life to God, or this good collective-concious? However you see what people refer to as God, this, please apply it to my question.

Would this God/collective concious/entity seek to grant you your wishes after you went to heaven? Even if your wish was to leave heaven for a little while and take some time to yourself?

It just seems that if one is to be "good" then their life must be forever dedicated to this good.

I am quite curious if this relationship would be one where the servant of God would be allowed to come and go freely... or if he would be forever bound to serve, absolutely, stuck in heaven forever.

I guess I am being blunt and by some perspectives unnappreciative no doubt, but this is my question, no easy way to ask it.




posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 03:27 AM
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What I can tell you is what I know, for myself, from my own personal experiences in this lifetime.

We can experience freedom before we die. That doesn't necessarily mean we can come and go OOB ad lib...but it doesn't mean we can't, either. I really don't know about that and am not able to test for myself so it's not in my realm of potential at the present time. I suspect that it is more a matter of being able to control one's own reality - because you come to realize that a free soul's thoughts are powerful things.

I don't think it is about being 'good.' After all, what does that REALLY mean? Good is a relative term on all levels. And most people don't realize that it is hard to be absolutely 'good' but it is EVEN harder to be absolutely 'evil.' Either way would serve God's purpose, though - if He revealed it as such.

I think the main thing, above ALL others, without exception is to BE TRUE.

Then there are no more shadows and the delusions start to fall away and then you begin to fully realize that you already are free! It is more a matter of our own mind being the prison for our soul and no one else!



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 03:31 AM
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I forgot to mention: it is the ones who are here on Earth, living still under the delusion of not being free that are in need of their brethren's service (those who have realized freedom).

So whether in body, or OOB, the work is here among us, not on the other side.
And I'm certain that work can be done regardless of which physical reality a soul is based in.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by Novise
I don't expect facts or perfect answers, it would be crazy to expect that. Rather I seek opinions and your understandings of how you think it would work out.

Hi Novise/
Well,in my opinion I take these as facts being that I fully believe that the early church had the right answers.....being that the 'Holy Spirit' was with them.....(see Acts)
"So the apostles and elders came together [in council] to consider the matter" (Acts 15:6)
(This is how the 'calling' for all matters of discussion, within the church came about!)

I guess what I am about to write is actually from what I know and have read, concerning 'the Soul after death'.
There are teachings about the 'soul after death' from various Fathers of the Church .
There are also Passages from the New Testament that reference 'souls after death'.....
While Christ was asleep in the Tomb...
quote/''Went and preached unto the souls in prison(hell)(1 Peter 3:19)Whch means that we can also pray for those 'souls' that have passed away which is yet to be the 'final' judgement for them.......(as was also done in the Old Testament).........Gods servant quote///angel of the Lord appeared to Abimelich and counseled him to seek Abraham's prayers, saying: "He shall pray for thee and thou shalt live" (Gen. 20:7).
Also...."is wondrous in His saints" (Ps 67:35)
and a few more which can be found.
(Prayers of Saints and rightous people)....eg/putting in a good word for a friend,similar thing!



Many Fathers from the early Church have written about the state of the soul once it has left the Body.
I know that the soul stays on earth for at least 40 days on earth....as was in the Old Testament and continues into the New Testament.



The question is: Just to what extent is a soul free after death, once it has devoted it's life to God, or this good collective-concious? However you see what people refer to as God, this, please apply it to my question.

To what extent is the Soul free after death?
Well, according to the New Testament and the teachings of Christ, it is only free after the Final Judgement.
When Judgement day begins for all mankind!
When this 'final Judgement' begins, we shall all stand before God and therefore will not have our prayers directed at other peoples souls, but our own!
quote///resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust" (Acts 24:14- 15)



It just seems that if one is to be "good" then their life must be forever dedicated to this good.

Well, I cannot speak for others, but can say that my own life is not always dedicated to doing all good....we all have faults and hopefully learn by them, which is not always the case.
To sin.....is to fall short for the Glory of God'.....this also means that we all to a somewhat degree have sinned and fallen to doing bad(whatever that is)but we are also told that we must not give up Hope that we cannot rise to the top....doing good and what is within Gods work.
This judgment is in Gods hands, and not for people.We all know (as adults)what is morally good and bad...
So, doing good in ones earthly life is good, but as for where your soul will be at Judgement day.......God only knows.
I guess doing good is in favour of God, but again, this is left in the hands of God.
One is never 'GOOD'...although one can do good in peoples eyes, but may not be the Good God seeks.
Hmmm, I'm confused!
What do you mean by dedicated for life to this 'good'?
One cannot know what or where life will take you.....only God knows.



I am quite curious if this relationship would be one where the servant of God would be allowed to come and go freely... or if he would be forever bound to serve, absolutely, stuck in heaven forever.

If we are talking about ones life after the final Judgement, then We(as in myself as a Christian)know that Revelation speaks of no other life after the 'final judgement' where the soul will be sentenced what it has 'reaped' on earth.
quote///"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Mt. 25:41-46).
ALSO....."they shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." It will be as the prophet Isaiah summarizes: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (Rev. 7:16-17; Is. 64:4; 1 Cor. 2:9).
AND again..quote///"Do not marvel at this: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice (of the Son of God) and come forth; those who have done good,
to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil,
to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29).


As for the time between NOW and the 'end of the world'(final Judgement) I know that(again, what Fathers have said and written)a soul cannot on it's own roam the eartly plane........'Eg/The prince of the Air' is known to be the Devil and his demons,who are .......capable of deceiving mankind.
I have also read that the 'soul'(after death)leaves the Body and for 40 days is on earth around loved ones(many peoples experiences will testify that they are visited or experience a 'paranormal' visitation of their loved one or someone close to them,before actual physical death or after death)......(can look up information of where I have read this , if you would like me to!)

Hmmm,not sure if this is what you asked for, but hope that helps out in what you seek to know.

The information that I got some of the quotes in here, are below.........
Source of info used

helen



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 12:01 PM
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Good is a relative term on all levels.


Yes, I meant for it to be taken as such.


Then there are no more shadows and the delusions start to fall away and then you begin to fully realize that you already are free! It is more a matter of our own mind being the prison for our soul and no one else!”


Thanks, this really starts to answer my question and is quite lovely. So now we begin to realize we are already free. How free are we?

I understand we are free from many things. I wonder what are we free to do?


Well, according to the New Testament and the teachings of Christ, it is only free after the Final Judgement.”


Thanks, this touches directly on my question. Again I wonder, just how free is it? Surely it is free from many things, but what is it free to do?


What do you mean by dedicated for life to this 'good'?

One cannot know what or where life will take you.....only God knows.”


Good meant as relative term to measure good/evil.

By forever dedicated to this “good”, I was talking about how you have to completely surrender yourself to Jesus/God. If your intentions of being forever dedicated were a lie, then you would not fool Him.


Hmmm,not sure if this is what you asked for, but hope that helps out in what you seek to know.


I got something from all of it, I think it helped me with my questions. Thankyou for that. I guess my question was more focused on the afterlife than on life. I am ultimately (lol) asking, that provided one did everything in life that was required, or if they reaped what they had sown, what would the extent of their freedom in the afterlife be?

It sounds like, according to the scriptures presented here, that the soul will be dumbfounded and never even want to have it’s own thought again. It doesn’t say anything about the soul being free, only free from despair, hate, sadness, anything “bad/evil” etc. It doesn’t say it is free to do what it wants. That is my question, is it free in any way to do what it wants?



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Novise
How free are we?


Free is directly proportional to 'truth' - by that I mean objective truth which is why I mentioned about good being relative. There is no 'good' or 'bad' in truth. Only proper timing and appropriate applications. Discernment and Foresight.


I understand we are free from many things. I wonder what are we free to do?

Whatever we desire! That is true freedom! But the crazy thing about it - which is the thing that makes it possible - is that once free, the soul's desire is truly and sincerely motivated toward freeing its fellow souls!


Originally posted by helen670
Well, according to the New Testament and the teachings of Christ, it is only free after the Final Judgement.”


No, the truth sets us free. That is stated plainly enough.


Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asks receives; and he that seeketh finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.
~Matthew 7:7-8


If that is true, and also this:


And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
~John 8:32


Then it would make sense to seek truth in all things. NOT what seems to be true, but just 'God's truth.' Like Einstein says: 'I want to know God's thoughts...the rest is detail.'

In regard to judgment:


Judge not, that ye be not judged.
~Matthew 7:1

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
~Luke 6:37

Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
~Luke 12:56-57



Originally posted by Novise
By forever dedicated to this “good”, I was talking about how you have to completely surrender yourself to Jesus/God. If your intentions of being forever dedicated were a lie, then you would not fool Him.

Exactly! You can't fool God because He is within you. Right now. All the time. In all of us. 24/7.


But to be dedicated, in truth, to Christ and the Father, what must one do?

Be a servant. Just as Jesus washed the disciple's feet, fed the poor instead of attending a feast (that the Jews held that was NOT one of the 7 given in the Torah), and healed infirmities on the Sabbath.

He was not concerned with empty piety or even with being good! Remember what he said when they called him 'good'! It didn't ruffle his feathers to be accused of being evil or having a demon, either. The only thing that did make him mad was trafficking (commercial activities) in the temple!

What he cared about was the quality of life of his fellow man. We must do the same if we want to follow him to freedom's door!


I guess my question was more focused on the afterlife than on life.

Well, if LIFE is not after life, then it is death. That obviously isn't freedom. There is not life after life only LIFE continuing. Passing from death (imprisonment within) to life (freedom of the soul).


I am ultimately (lol) asking, that provided one did everything in life that was required, or if they reaped what they had sown, what would the extent of their freedom in the afterlife be?

It's not about quantity or success - but rather about sincerity and intention.


And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. ~Mark 4:24

And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
~Mark 12:41-44


Give of what you have, selflessly and without expectation of recompense, and your recompense will manifest far beyond anything you could set your mind to work for!


It sounds like, according to the scriptures presented here, that the soul will be dumbfounded and never even want to have it’s own thought again. It doesn’t say anything about the soul being free, only free from despair, hate, sadness, anything “bad/evil” etc.

I guess it does.


But the thing is, once your mind is freed from negative thoughts and grows resilient against negative forces and reacting to same...then your soul is freed, too.


It doesn’t say it is free to do what it wants. That is my question, is it free in any way to do what it wants?

YES! And once all those negative things are gone, the soul no longer needs anything because our ideas of deficit come from defense mechanisms that say 'if only I had' or 'if it were this way' or 'this would make me happy'. When those are gone, self-preserve/self-orientation is gone. That is our prison: fears, insecurities, and lack of self-worth in our naked state.

Once we require nothing, all we want is to do the same for others.




 
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