Hats off to my opponent, who appears to be ready to do battle, and those in charge for making this happen. Lets Go...

"Are Homeless Individuals A Victim Of Their Own Wrongdoing?"

This is the topic we have at hand, and it is one that society likes to paint with one brush. Unfortunately, like anything else in life, this painting requires more than one brush as every individual has their own story. To say that homeless individuals are in their current state, due to a personal decision, is a naive one. My opponent basis his opening post on the premise that these individuals "prefer" to be out on the street with nowhere to go. As that may be the case for a small percentage of the population, ultimately, we can not say that for everyone. With that in mind, it is quite clear that our direction needs to be pointed towards the majority of homeless individuals.

At this point, I would like to acknowledge the true "crux" of this issue, Society. Homeless people do not "choose" to be homeless, just as drug addicts do not "choose" to be drug addicts.

I will touch on an issue that is close to my heart, but delve into it much deeper later in the debate, Addictive behaviours. Now my opponent has already stated that this is a personal choice the individual has to make, and nobody is to blame but themselves. We are all familiar with cancer, but are we all familiar with Oxycodone?

Oxycodone is one of the most powerful medications for pain control that can be taken orally. Percocet tablets (Oxycodone with acetaminophen) are routinely prescribed for post-operative pain control. Oxycodone is also used in treatment of moderate to severe chronic pain. When used at recommended doses for relatively short periods (several weeks), it provides effective pain control with manageable side effects. Both immediate release oxycodone and sustained-release OxyContin are prescribed for pain due to cancer more than for any other condition.

This solution has become more of a problem than anything in the last five years. Cancer survivors were prescribed this drug in very large doses and given little warning to the extent of damage it could cause. It was hyped up as a savior, but it was clearly something else. Individuals on this drug became quickly addicted, a addiction that easily compares to a Crystal Meth addiction. Now are we to believe there is a moment we can pinpoint when this treatment becomes an addiction? How? Doctors handed out these pills to cancer patients who were doctors, lawyers, politicians, pharmacists, teachers, principles, etc., and they all found themselves addicted just like anyone else.

Crime rate in our area spiked, and it was shocking to find out who was committing the crimes. All of the sudden the homeless individuals we were coming about, were the cancer patients we were just mourning, and the people who once taught our children.

Now I ask you, was this their choice? Was this a personal decision made by those who consumed the drug?

This is one example, of many to come, of how homeless individuals are not making the choice on their economical status. Are we to believe that people would prefer to sleep out on the sidewalk during the middle of a snowstorm? This is the choice they have made, over paying bills or dealing with family members?

A rather large assumption, backed up with little fact.

It also must be said that political agenda's are not the topic at hand. Faulting administrations for a motion that disagrees with survival of the fittest is off topic, and in my opinion, a ploy to confuse the public to the true intent of this debate.

I wish to make it clear that I do not believe we are a spectator in the life we live, but it should be clear that we can be manipulated by the society to which we inhabit. If we make a decision, but the basis of our decision was manipulated, then did we actually make the decision? Or has society made that decision for us?

My opponent has clearly laid out a very strong list explaining why the Homeless are actually to blame for their current situation. But I think the true list would look more like this:

■ Poverty
■ Serious Mental Illness
■ Disabilities
■ Foster Care Children
■ Victims of Domestic Abuse
■ Civilians During War
■ War Veterans
■ Genocide Survivors

Are we to believe that these individuals chose to live on the streets? Are we to believe that our society has a history of greeting our soldiers with open arms? ...Vietnam? Genocide? Darfur? Was this their decision? Spousal Abuse? When a spouse has no decision but to run, was this their decision or a decision made by the abuser? Poverty? Did a child in poverty decide to be born into the poverty they inhabit?

The answer to all of these questions is No! Society has made this decision for them, they are merely forced to make the best of their current situation.

I turn the floor back over to my opponent. It appears I am in tough on this one.

(5000)

It appears the dance floor is mine.

On the contrary, my position is clear in that they made choices that placed them into a homeless situation. Not that they prefer to be homeless. THEY decided to leave their family because their Daddy was too strict, THEY decided to pick up the Crack Pipe, THEY decided to not put the bottle down, THEY decided to quit their job, or not work two jobs and lost everything.

Your process of thought is filled with stereotypes and flawed assumptions. I noticed you failed to acknowledge the victims of oxycontins that I have mentioned. The educators, politicians, lawyers, and doctors that were consumed by a drug that they had no idea what kind of hold it could have on them. Did they decide to take the drug? Yes, but they did not take it with full knowledge to the damage it could cause. One does not choose to be an addict. We can not fault these individuals who consumed a drug which had an addiction that was sure to follow.

The notion that all homeless individuals are "bums" is another seriously flawed assumption. I merely try to point out that the regular joe, just like me or you, could of ended up in their situation and found ourselves on the street.

If you were a victim of this, would you rather the Conservative "Survival of the Fittest", or the Socialist "Leave No Man Behind" mentality? Sometimes our "advantages" in life act as a smoke screen to the bigger picture.

Granted there is going to be some overlap in reference to those individuals that do not have the self-control or will power to follow the doctor’s orders, but several Google searches will reveal that the majority are simply drug abusers.

Now this is where you are wrong. You base your reasoning on Google searches, while I base my thinking on "First Hand Experience". These individuals consumed the drug exactly how the doctor ordered. They did not "Abuse" the drug that had been prescribed to them. You've been manipulated by a glorious Google search to believe these Drug Users are actually Drug Abusers.

Since when did we believe everything that Google told us? What if I Googled "Failure". Enough said.

No, they choose to sleep on the side walks during the day in the warm summer and roam the streets at night. Then when big bad winter hits, they are all of a sudden relegated into “those poor people”, never taking into consideration the choices they made to get them there. If they are forever inserted into our society as victims, those choices will never be considered and we will begin a campaign of the Government caring for people instead of people supporting the government. Remember, Socialism is the failed experiment.

Platform for a political agenda? Or debate on the homeless?

This mentality of "those poor people" has been created by society, not by the individuals themselves. How can we fault them for something society has created.

Giving them certain status as a Governmental supported group that needs to take no responsibility for their own actions. Call then victims all you want as long as it is understood they are the victims of their own poor judgment, not the victims of a society that has and presents every possible advantage for those that are willing to get up in the morning and go out and make a life. Not just to give up and expect the rest of us that are willing to get up and go to work, to support you.

Are you sure about that one? Victims of their own poor judgment? Have we never made a bad decision? Have you never had to cut a few corners to make a rent/mortgage payment? What about those corners you cut one month, did they build up over time? If they built up to a mountain that was unsurmountable, what decisions would they have? Are we to believe that regular joe's, good fathers, great husbands, respectable people, do not fight this reality off every day?

All homeless people are not bums, they are not drug users/abusers, they are not criminals. To say otherwise, is yet again, a stereotype. But it appears that stereotypes are the base of this mountain I am trying to bring down.

You say that society has provided them every opportunity to pull themselves out of the gutter. But you can not actually believe that? If you were homeless, and you actually had a clean shirt to attend a job interview, what would you provide as contact information? What would be your address? What would be your phone number?

Honestly though, this is the actual crux of the issue for homeless individuals who are actually trying to help themselves out. So let's hear it, what is the answer to this problem?

Are we to believe that the employer's will not judge the individual who is homeless? Are we to believe that they would be given the same opportunity in an organization?

Once an individual is homeless, it is extremely tough to get out of the vicious circle that has been created for themselves. Employment, it is next to impossible to attain. Your only hope would be knowing somebody who knows somebody, otherwise how could you possibly get a job?

What are you going to do if the majority of society decides to play the victim and become Homeless? What happens when there are no longer any citizens to flip the burgers? Make the bolts and microwaves? What then? Who is going to support an entire country of homeless victims?

Unlike a certain opponent, I will tackle your tough questions head on. And I wish to acknowledge ANY situation where discussing the extremities gives a fair calculation to the situation at hand. Is it reasonable to discuss the absolute extremes? I do not think so. But for the sake of discussion, let's look at it. If everybody stopped? The economy would crumble, society would be in shambles, and we would be left to defend our own. You would not lose your house, car, clothing, or any thing else for that matter. Who would come and get it? Who would repossess it?

But as I have said, extremities do nothing for any argument.

Let us be clear, no where in the Constitution guarantees you a home. Some things must be worked for, struggled for, should be worked for. The Constitution gives you rights that are there to facilitate you making a home and being a productive member of society. To help you work and make a life.

What does any of this have to do with the question: "Are Homeless Individuals A Victim Of Their Own Wrongdoing"

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would roll over in their graves.

You, my friend, are a true patriot. I would never debate you on patriotism, because it is quite obvious, you would kick my backside. But, fortunately, this debate is not about being patriotic. It has nothing to do with much of what you have said.

But the smoke screen is tough to fight. I commend you, very talented.

I now point our attention to the true "homeless". My opponent has said that most homeless individuals are one nighters. Interesting thought, google may agree. But, if we can get back to the issue at hand, we can explore some of the "true" victims of homelessness.

■ Poverty - my opponent fails to acknowledge how children are born into poverty and never had a chance to overcome it. We do not choose to live below the poverty line, we do not choose the environment we inhabit. It is a decision made for us, which seems to be the trend with homelessness.

■ Foster Care Children - need I discuss the faults in this process? Sometimes I would rather see a child on the street than hear of the abuse they go through in the Foster Care system. Sexual, physical, psychological abuse at the hand of those who should be caring for them. Is it actually their "decision" to be homeless. Or was it a decision predetermined for them.

■ Civilians During War - I never read the article in Darfur that said it was their choice to undergo a complete genocide.

■ War Veterans - Need I say anything? I think the term itself speaks a thousand words. With our post limit, it is fortunate it is willing to do some of the work for me.

Are these extremities? No, the individuals that fit these categories make up the majority of homeless individuals. We are not talking about the population of "American Homeless" individuals, we are talking about every homeless person. My opponent believes that the "One Nighters" make up the population of homeless people, but what would he say to those who live in Darfur? What about those who returned from Vietnam? Those who were sexually abused in an orphanage?

Did they make this decision? It is quite clear what the answer to that question is.

Get on your dancing shoes my friend, the floor is yours.

Semper’s Closing

My opponent brought up so many good points and was obviously so passionate about the issue, that I have been mulling over this closing for quite some time now. Actually it was my opponent that gave me the inspiration on how to sum this entire issue up into one neat, tidy bundle that you can all take home with you to contemplate at your ease.

Emotions.

Chissler,
I was initially concentrating my stance on the choices made by individuals and the impact those choices have on their lives. Every posting, every thought I put up for debate, you countered with one of your own; based on emotional reaction to the circumstances of their lives.

On reading your thoughts in detail, it is obvious that you care for the plight of the Homeless. That is admirable and to be commended. It is also very apparent that your personal experiences have made you especially emotional in dealing with this issue. Those emotions are a credit to you, your personality and your character.

Those emotions are however self defeating in any productive attempt to resolve an issue; particularly one that affects so many different people existing in so diverse an environment, with so very many dissimilar personal tragedies.

The issues that have created the current Homeless situation in this country are simply and succinctly the result of actions taken by individuals without due regard for the consequences of those actions. There is no easy way to avoid this, or deflect it as any form of “smoke screen.” With the rare exception, the person that finds themselves homeless, does so because at some point in their lives, they decided to perform some action, NOT perform some action, or allow some issue to continue to exist. They did this until such time as they lost the ability to, or gave up on the ability to continue being productive in our society.

Sad? Yes. The government’s problem? No. The result of their own wrongdoing? Absolutely.

Remember this definition.

“Wrongdoing”
Noun
Behavior or action that is wrong.
(Dictionary.com)

I believe that all will agree that any action that you take, any action that you fail to take, that causes you to become homeless, would fall under that category of an “Action that is wrong.”
Whether that action, that behavior is spending outside of the budget, drinking too much, picking up that crack pipe, or not discontinuing the use of a prescription medicine when that use becomes detrimental to one’s well being. They made that choice; they did or did not perform that action that caused their condition.

My opponent has spent copious amounts of time lamenting how it is difficult to impossible for the homeless to obtain employment. I present to you that this is not the debate. The debate is whether or not they are victims of their own wrongdoing. My opponent related at length the specifics of a certain prescription medicine and how difficult it is to break that addiction. Yet, at some point the individual could have put it down and sought help “before” losing everything and becoming one of the homeless we are debating.

Many that reflect upon what has been written here will, as my opponent, feel emotional about the plight these people suffer. I caution you against allowing that to be the basis for any actions you may consider in support of assisting the effort to solve this problem. Emotions are the antipathy of correct actions. Emotions have little value in the pursuit of solutions, especially those that are as convoluted and difficult as this.

I have presented factual and supported evidence and explained my stance on this issue. Although each of us must be expected to decide such things for ourselves, the inescapable fact remains that each homeless person, did at some point in their lives, make that one, two or more decisions that created their environment.

The facts remain that the large majority of homeless are only in that situation for a limited period of time. They improve their living conditions on their own. Thus further establishing my point for me.

The fact remains that you can not possibly become an addict, an alcoholic or criminal without making the decision to drink, use narcotics or break the law. Those decisions fall under the definition of wrongdoing. There by again establishing my point for me.

When one is out enjoying the wonders this country has to offer, it is impossible to see a homeless person and not feel emotional about their plight. The emotions that you feel will not correct their condition on any permanent basis. They must be instructed in how to not place themselves in that situation as much as they must be helped out of it.

The most effective solution is to teach them what they did wrong, what actions they took that caused them to be homeless and then teach them to not do it again.

Enable them to help themselves.

Semper

As the light turns to dark. All great things have to come to an end, and it is my unfortunate responsibility to finish this debate off. One last time I have to thank my opponent for his efforts. As I read his posts I find myself rooting more and more for him, then I have to remind myself that it is I he is looking into the eyes of from across the ring.

Time for one last spin.

My opponent acknowledges an issue that has a stranglehold on the issue we are discussing. Emotions. It is human nature to feel for a victim. When somebody suffers, one can not help but feel for them. Emotion can cloud our judgment on many issues. If your family is the victim of a specific crime, you may carry a certain bias towards any assailants of the crime in the future. However, my first hand experience has opened my eyes to the issue rather than cloud my judgment. My experience with homeless individuals has allowed me to put a face on those in need, and realize that this could happen to any one of us. To think that the individual themself is solely responsible for their situation is a very naive stereotype.

What my opponent fails to acknowledge is that an addiction is a disease. He says that the individual makes a decision at some point to fuel their disease. But when an individual develops an addiction through a completely legal prescription, that was consumed as directed, one can not be blamed for the addiction that developed. I believe my opponent would do his own argument some serious justification if he were to acknowledge this as a disease rather than a personal decision.

In this, my closing statement, I have to take our attention and focus it on the majority of homeless individuals worldwide. My opponent has openly ignored my statements, my figures, and my links, and continued to say that "over-nighters" are the majority of homeless individuals. That may be the case for Americans, but we are not talking about Americans. So you can see that his sites, facts, and statistics are completely moot to the situation at hand.

■ Genocide
■ War
■ Poverty
■ Society

These are all of the biggest contributors to homelessness. It is quite clear that my opponent is not willing to tackle these items because there is absolutely no defense to their validity. He has provided links, to which I have counteracted with factual information that completely undermines his stance. I have actually proven that, what my opponent has said, to be false. Has my opponent been able to take my words and beyond a reasonable doubt conclude them to be false?

No, he has not. It is not a discredit to my worthy opponent, but it has been his strategy. I have produced facts that can not be disputed. Genocide survivors, civilians during war, and victims of poverty severely outweigh the number of drug abusers, alcoholics, and evicts worldwide.

I wish to quote one portion of my opponents efforts, as this final attempt needs to be acknowledged.

With the rare exception, the person that finds themselves homeless, does so because at some point in their lives, they decided to perform some action, NOT perform some action, or allow some issue to continue to exist.

And one final time I have to ask the question that you have avoided for so long now. What decision has victims of war, genocide, and poverty had to make on their ordeal? When did the citizens of Darfur make a decision to be wiped off the face of the earth?

By my opponents own admission, I have counteracted his points. Where has my opponent counteracted what I have said? Other than deploy a strategy to ignore the irrefutable evidence, my opponent has done little to face the arguments I have made.

The issues that have created the current Homeless situation in this country are simply and succinctly the result of actions taken by individuals without due regard for the consequences of those actions.

You can see in this quote, that my opponent has directed his attention on the homeless within his own country. Nowhere in the topic, that we are discussing, does it say "American Homeless". Homeless Individuals are what we are discussing, and every homeless person worldwide is included. This narrow approach can not be overlooked.

I am not here to say Socialism is the way to go. I am not here to say Conservatism needs an adjustment. I am merely trying to shine some light on those who need a helping hand. Homelessness is an issue that has been growing and growing, and with the population of our planet on a steady incline, it may become a bigger issue in the not too distant future. Rather than passing judgment, pass a helping hand. Rather than stepping over them, step up to help them.

The true face of homelessness is scarred with war, not drugs. These individuals are victims, and they do not deserve our ridicule. Whether it is a white man in Times Square or an orphan female in Darfur, they are in need of our help.

I conclude this with a friendly, yet firm, handshake between my opponent and I. The respect I had for you before this debate has increased tenfold.

I tip my hat and exit stage right.

The Debate Is Finished!

And now I'm consulting with the secret judges (there's more than one) to find out what their verdict is.

Results to follow later today...

The Judges Have Spoken!

There were actually two judges, and they both ruled as follows:

1. semperfortis made the more convincing argument.

2. It was a close enough contest and a broad enough topic that both judges suggested they would like to see a rematch.

Of course, as is the custom in Head-2-Head, all participants will share equally in the debate prize.

Thus I have awarded each of you 20,000 PTS Points for this excellent thread.

In addition to that, this debate will be an eligible candidate for the Big Debate Contest Grand Prize -- once we work out some things behind the scenes (please pardon our dust).

And um... when you've had a chance to recharge your batteries, I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch myself.

Nicely done.





(Oh and the thread is now open to comments from any interested Fighter or staff member).


[edit on 1/22/2007 by Majic]

semper, I tip my hat to you my friend and applaud your victory.

In the early going, I was really second guessing this whole approach and was like, "Damn.. I'm really in over my head!" You brought it and wasted no time. I thought I took the upper hand as the debate progressed, but it is clear I am in a position of bias.

Like the last debate, there are no losers. I am honored to of taken part in this debate, and I look forward to the next round.

This debate allowed me the opportunity to hear some honest feedback from members I've never met. A few stories were shared and I have semper, and the H2H Forum to thank for it. Members have shared some first hand accounts, and it was very interesting to discuss their stories.

So one final time my friend, Congrats!

Well... my friend...

No one is as surprised as me...

I thought I put up a good fight, but I was also very impressed with the passion that you put into this debate.

You obviously have very deep feelings for this issue.

I believe that our continued communication via U2U, was one thing that made this so much more enjoyable than just regular posting...

ps..

I am always up for a rematch..

Good Job Chissler and thanks for the compliments...

Semper

Finally got around to reading this one. Two of my favorite people on ATS going at it on a topic of such social and dare I say it, political importance. Well done to both of you.