Is The War With Iran Now Starting?

Originally posted by ZEV93
What is annoying to me is the virulent Anti-Americanism from my fellow Germans here.

Well I am not German, but American born in the Caribbean . . . my first language is Spanish.

According to them, Bush is guilty of almost everything

Pretty much . . . yes . . . he was the one to wag his war, if you have followed the time line of the mess call war on terror . . . you will know that it started with revenge against Afghanistan even when most of the 9/11 were Saudis.

How it ended in Iraq? Well we have plenty of scenarios and conspiracies to that, from his revenge against Saddam because of his father, His ties to corporate American and the oil barons, his religious crusade, his lies about Saddam being a threat and so on and on.

So yes, he is at fault for Iraq mess, and now he wants to start a fight with Iran, guess what Bush lost the support of the American people and his party lost his power in congress but still Bush is a man on a crusade and he thinks that he doesn't need the American people's opinions or the congress.

I'm not a Bush friend either, but I still prefer the American Way of Life over living in an islamized Europe with Sharia Law.

Well we are not having a peachy time here in American you know we have our constitution right now in a precarious situation thanks to Bush laws, patriot act and regulations in his pursue of the war on terror.

I am not sure if the Germans share this view. At least not the radical left and right, they defend the Islamists and Al-Quida wherever they can and make the USA responsible for everything.

Well I believe that nobody is defending Al-qaida or any terrorist groups the defense is to the people in the Middle East that happen to be muslin and practice Islam and have been force into a war in which they are the ones dying while the liberators and terrorist, insurgents or anything you want to name it are guilty.

Europe is lost anyway. In 30-50 Years, the Muslims will be in a Majority, they will form Parties and change the state from within. Maybe then these German Idiots will wake up. But it will be too late then, because it's already too late NOW.

Well and we are going to lose America to corporate interest, and to the incredible mass immigration problem from the south, so if you are scare of Europe been taking by the muslins . . . I suggest you start learning Spanish if you are planning to move to the US.

I am a Librarian and my English is, well, quite good for a German I think

Your English is very good actually, cannot tell the difference. BTW, I am Puerto Rican and I already speak fluent Spanish.


[edit on 17-1-2007 by marg6043]

When I read this thread,all I read was "my brother is more justified to gove your brother a thumping than your brother". I think US (and UK) has been egging for a fight with Iran and it will be civilians who will be hurt! (on both sides). The best treatment that US could do to Iran is leave it alone, see how the leader could deal by its people (Lets be honest - ALL politicians work that number of concentrating on foreign issues when internal issues are collapsing around them) - if this guy was a warmongerer, the iranians would have seen through it.

Sorry on my above reply, I may have got Iran mixed up with US or UK!

Originally posted by ZEV93
What is really annoying to me is the virulent Anti-Americanism from my fellow Germans here. According to them, Bush is guilty of almost everything. I'm not a Bush friend either, but I still prefer the American Way of Life over living in an islamized Europe with Sharia Law.

Thanks for your sentiment. I disagree with and dislike Bush as well, but it's nice to see not everybody in Europe hates us because he stole (IMO) elections, and your right, Islamic law would suck to live under...

ZEV93, you're using a false dichotomy there. We have more options than either kowtowing to Washington or accepting Shariah law with open arms. You say you're a librarian and would consider asking for asylum in the United States. Do you have any idea of the society you would find yourself in? Do you know what was recently asked of librarians in the United States? You'd find yourself in a nation so whipped into fear and suspicion that it would rival your native country of the 1930's.

Let's deal with facts here, sans the rhetoric and accusations; Iran is a signatory to the NPT and has not yet been found in breach of any of it's obligations thereunder. There has been no evidence given, cited or proven of an Iranian nuclear weapons program - not by the US government, Israeli government, the IAEA or any other entity.

All we have is more unfounded, baseless, speculation from opponents of Tehran that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. We saw the same lies being peddled 4 years ago with Iraq and it's WMD programs. We, including myself, didn't ask for proof before acquiescing to armed intervention in Iraq in 2003, I'll be friggen DAMNED if I'll make that same mistake twice.

Those believing everything that Washington and Tel Aviv (NOT JERUSALEM!) says are delusional at best and complete fools at worst.

Originally posted by subz
Those believing everything that Washington and Tel Aviv (NOT JERUSALEM!) says are delusional at best and complete fools at worst.

That's why you can bet both sides are paying plenty of attention to what each is doing, and not saying. And given what is being done, it don't look good. Then again, looks can be deceiving, so who knows.

But would anyone here care to take any comfort in the "hey, it took years and years of failed diplomacy before we finally attacked" refuge? Cause that's about all we're going to be able to salvage out of any American righteousness left, if there is an attack on Iran. I'm with you subz- once bitten twice shy.

Originally posted by RedGolem
U.S. solders launched two raid on Iranian targets in Iraq yesterday. Five Iranians were detained and vast amounts of documents and computer data were seized. The raids are part of a new U.S. military and intelligence operation launched against Iran. The U.S. is trying to identify and capture top officials of the Revolutionary Gard's al-Quds Brigade operation in Iraq. The Brigade is active in arming and training and funding militant movements such as Hezbollah in Lebanon. Containing Iran is now a strategy to end Iraq's violence.

 

www.concordmonitor.com

.S. troops launched two raids on Iranian targets in Iraq yesterday, following through on President Bush's vow to confront and break up Tehran's networks inside Iraq. Five Iranians were detained, and vast amounts of documents and computer data were confiscated, according to U.S., Iraqi and Iranian officials.

The two raids are part of a new U.S. intelligence and military operation launched last month against Iran, U.S. officials said. The United States is trying to identify and detain top officials of the Revolutionary Guards' al-Quds Brigade operating in Iraq. The al-Quds Brigade is active in arming, training and funding militant movements, such as Lebanon's Hezbollah, throughout the Middle East.

"Throughout Iraq, operations are currently ongoing against individuals suspected of being closely tied to activities targeting Iraqi and Coalition forces," the headquarters of the U.S.-led Multinational Force said yesterday.




Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Well, maybe this is it. I have heard people say over and over again that the U.S. is going to be going to war with Iran. So maybe all the predictions are finely come true. I remember people saying the Iran is supporting the violence in Iraq. I figured they were probably right. However I was always under the impression that the violence they were supporting was toward the U.S., not Iraq citizens. Also look at what Hezbollah has become. The political party holds many seats in Lebonans government, and it is controled supplied by Iran. So will Iraq become another Lebanon? I fear the out come will be much worse.

Related News Links:
www.kansascity.com
www.latimes.com
www.chicagotribune.com

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
Middle East See Little Hope In Palestinian
The Nightmare And The Path To The Terror Atacks
Bigger war coming.......

[edit on 14-1-2007 by UM_Gazz]

Let see 20,000 troops to Iraq
another carrier force to the Persian Gulf
5 Iranian Revolutionary Guards taken into custody in Iraq
Iran shoots down a US drone

Hmmmm . . .

Yeah, I think its started!

oh please vitchello and all others, this is all about power, money and control of oil rights to the nations. who gets what and how much and who buys or sells oil at different prices. we know that the supply of oil is vital to all the nations wealth, meanning transportation of goods, all goods. this gas or oil makes this happen. if this does not happen, then nations go bankrupt and starve with no gas or oil to ship the goods of theirs. this planet of ours holds many oil pockets. some of these huge oil pockets are called elephants. some pockets are very small and do not last long. saudi, iraq, and iran are on such a huge oil elephant. they connect underground. this is why everyone fights for power, control of oil to supply the nations over there. the uprisings over there are just A means of control of land under the oil pockets , NOTHING MORE. if you take a oil survey map and a map of the territory you will find that this elephant stretches from saudi all the way to iran and all around there. don't beleive me just check it out online a survey oil map of over there. the nations get alot of oil from here . i have seen oil tankers larger than some of our aircraft carriers come out of there. they run 24 hours seven days a week nonstopp. and there are thousands of them. why do you think we capped wells during dessert storm to protect the oil there. some rich power hungary oil head made sure those rigs were capped. it is not just us that need oil either. we all compete for it. the oil is running dry because there are no fat elephants or oil wells to get oil from. the nations are taking oil from small oil wells which go dry alot. no real good finds of an elephant oil field. we nations compete. and the people who are underneath the oil elephant will war and fight till it is dry, because they all compete for power to rights to feed the nations appitight for oil that we all desperately need.the nuke thing does not help matters over there either. and the peoples over there saying death to america. is just stupid. they are hypnotized by the hitler reencarnate. this is what they teach their childeren over there also which is also bad.

[edit on 17-1-2007 by littlebird]

[edit on 17-1-2007 by littlebird]

You are right littlebird, it has nothing to do with nuclear weapons and a little thing called terrorism. Isn't that what you are denying? Come on, nuclear weapons are real, and terrorism is real. Both are terrible truths and when paired with the other become much more deadly.

Littlebird do you have any idea what the Iranian President has said about the West let alone their "Religious" leaders. If you just think it's about oil you are kidding yourself. Just because your family hasn't been killed or threatened in a terrorist attack doesn't mean that terrorism doesn't effect you.

Originally posted by missed_gear

Originally posted by Vitchilo


Second…in 1993, US forces were in Somalia to help the humanitarian aid flow the UN was attempting to deliver. US forces were deployed with the blessing of the UN to open the closed supply routes, get relief moving again and clear a way for the UN peacekeeping mission UNISOM II…never was the US mandate to enact regime change or disarm the nation. Yet, even these types of humanitarian missions have risks…yes?

Clinton’s administration allowed Somalia to somewhat languish and AQ was blamed for training the Somali’s which committed a majority of the acts against US forces…not a governmental body (if there even was one at that time)...

Originally posted by Vitchilo
So you like imperialism?

Please…Iran is guilty of imperialism.

Furthermore, Iran was involved in these types of organizations long before OIF. Iran’s actions can not be so simply justified by only pointing the finger at the US nor are Iran’s actions that of a solely peace seeking nation.



Mg

Actually, oil is what attracted George Herbert Bush to Somalia's plight. Why should a rich oilman be interested in caring about one hungry African nation when there are dozens more nearby? But you see, that one hungry nation has something that Herbert Bush wanted for his Big Oil buddies. OIL. That's the reason for the bloody US invasion of Somalia in 1993.

What's left out of your altruistic view of US foreign policy regarding Somalia is how oil companies also helped the G.I. Joes do their thing!

www.netnomad.com...

It is just pretty funny in a sad way that the type of mainstream reporting on Somalia ala Mark Fineman's got muted afterward.

And where has Iran's recent imperialism been compared to the USA's historical invasions and/or covert bloodshed in many places from Panama, the Philippines, Grenada, Guatemala, Iraq, Nicaragua, Chile and so forth?

[edit on 18-1-2007 by worldlyman]

Originally posted by littlebird
oh please vitchello and all others, this is all about power, money and control of oil rights to the nations. who gets what and how much and who buys or sells oil at different prices.

Littlebird,
Ok yes just about everything that happens in the political arena is about power in one way or another, not to discount that terror is real right along with what a WMD can do to a civilization. But ok this is about power. So who is pulling the strings to make happen what is happening? If you are not familiar with it already please read this
Oil factor
and watch this
ecconomic hit man
There are better interviews of the latter but did not find them. But then what might your answer be?

k, I know my post was a little off topic here,
but let me answer to some of the replies from people here.

First, I have no serious plans to migirate to the US, and i doubt they need German librarians there.

As i said, the average German may have no sympathy for Islamists, it's mainly
the ones on the left and right of the spectrum, but there it'`s really persistent, and the media is dominated by leftist liberals ( I once considered myself to be more on the left, too.But i think I am politically homeless now).
It's the typical leftist "I support the Underdog" even when, as in the Muslim Case, the underdog is following a proto-fascist ideology under the disguise of a religion. The aim of all Muslims, and this includes even the moderate ones, is "World domination of Islam, the only true Religion."
And the constant sacrificing of civil liberties in favour of political correctness and not to
"insult" the Muslims is really worrying here (though i think it's even worse in the UK).
There is no easy answer to the question : Which is better : Paranoia (as in the US) or Appeasement and downplaying of real dangers of Islam (as in Europe).

Concerning the upcoming(?) Iran War : If this happens, and I doubt that,this will be restricted to some Air Strikes on Nuclear Plants and won't include a ground invasion like in iraq.
You can discuss if its justified or not, fact is Achmadinedschahd has threatend numerous times to "Wipe Israel off the Map". Hitler laid out his plans in advance in "Mein Kampf", noone took it seriously until it was too late.

Actually, oil is what attracted George Herbert Bush to Somalia's plight. Why should a rich oilman be interested in caring about one hungry African nation when there are dozens more nearby?

Actually the UN asked for help, not just from the US, from all member nations…the US was one of many to send troops.

Mid August 1992, the UN operation UNOSOM I began operations which was to provide humanitarian relief to the Somali’s. However, in very little time the UN supplies were being looted; aid workers assaulted and entire convoys were confiscated.

Soon after these events began to happen with regularity, the UN appealed to member nations to provide martial support and security for these aid deliveries. The US responded in early December of the same year. The UN force designation was UNITAF:

The number of United States forces were expected to build to approximately 28,000 personnel, to be augmented by some 17,000 UNITAF troops from over 20 countries. In addition to United States forces, UNITAF included military units from Australia, Belgium, Botswana, Canada, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Italy, Kuwait, Morocco, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom and Zimbabwe.Source

In less than six months the US handed over command and soon after UNISOM II began and remained in place until 1995.

As for the provided “oil link”… This is something that rarely is mentioned:
In 1991, after the collapse in Somalia, the oil companies in question invoked “Force Majeure” which exempted all parties from their obligations nullifying the contractual arrangements. Furthermore, with the overthrow of Mohammed Barre, these contracts officially ended.

If a stable government is ever established, these contracts could be potentially, but not necessarily, re-negotiated; but still would have been open to other entities. Example: Under Yosuf, China began moving in on Somali oil potential reserves in 2004. No decision has been made since 1991 on what to do, if anything, with any previous contractual efforts, chances are nothing.

As for the known existence of oil…apparently the geology “looks good” but there are still little to no proven oil reserves and very little LNG reserves in Somalia.



mg

Originally posted by ZEV93

You can discuss if its justified or not, fact is Achmadinedschahd has threatend numerous times to "Wipe Israel off the Map". Hitler laid out his plans in advance in "Mein Kampf", noone took it seriously until it was too late.

zev,
for everything that you said I think that statment I quoted above says the most.

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by ZEV93

You can discuss if its justified or not, fact is Achmadinedschahd has threatend numerous times to "Wipe Israel off the Map". Hitler laid out his plans in advance in "Mein Kampf", noone took it seriously until it was too late.

zev,
for everything that you said I think that statment I quoted above says the most.

I believe Ahmadinejad has made it clear that he's to wipe the "Zionist Regime" out. I don't think he's against the Israeli people. But I could be wrong. As was stated in the "Mein Kampf" reference, I'd hate to let it go until it was too late.

What to do?

The idea of Iran invading and taking over a country is ridculous considering most their weapons are old russian crap and they haven't done anything of the sort for centuries.

It's also best to question all propaganda designed to foment hate that builds the military-industrial complex and destroys more Earth.... before becoming a stooge of it:
Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?

So who currently is more apt to bomb a country's infratructure, invade it, kill off its leaders and set up a puppet regime in order to benefit itself and make some quick profits?

[edit on 18-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
It's also best to question all propaganda designed to foment hate that builds the military-industrial complex and destroys more Earth.... before becoming a stooge of it:

Doesn't this quote kind of contradict the point you are trying to make?

You said to question all propaganda blah blah blah, but then you offer that link as supporting ideals behind...

"So who currently is more apt to bomb a country's infratructure, invade it, kill off its leaders and set up a puppet regime in order to benefit itself and make some quick profits?"

I'm confused as to where you stand?

Originally posted by Infoholic
I'm confused as to where you stand?

I take it you didn't read the link too well, if you didn't see how it shows the reasoning behind propaganda fabrication, where as the same techniques have been used over and over again from Poland to Iraq.

So to answer what side I stand on is to ask: What benefits are there in the further destructon of Earth, when we are all confined to a single planet? I see few benefits, unless extinction is the primary goal.

Originally posted by Regenmacher

So to answer what side I stand on is to ask: What benefits are there in the further destructon of Earth, when we are all confined to a single planet? I see few benefits, unless extinction is the primary goal.

That is your first mistake being rational, logical and having a sense of responsiblity, there are people in control right now that have a biblical agenda to fulfill if you understand what I am talking about.

Is religion logical? I don't think you can explain faith with logic, you either have it or you don't.

Originally posted by Realtruth
That is your first mistake being rational, logical and having a sense of responsiblity, there are people in control right now that have a biblical agenda to fulfill if you understand what I am talking about.

Is religion logical? I don't think you can explain faith with logic, you either have it or you don't.

I would suggest all religous people read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Though i know even then they won't be cured from their mental disturbance named 'Religion'.
richarddawkins.net...

Originally posted by Realtruth
Is religion logical? I don't think you can explain faith with logic, you either have it or you don't.

Maybe they should figure out who they are really listening to. Is it the message from a Creator or a the words of a destroyer? Does the common man go into the forest and actually hear God say, "Burn all the trees down, cause there's a wolf that might eat your children!"?

We can take science and logic and twist it into a perversion too, in order prey on peoples fears and get them to kill each other off. Man can pervert any aspect of life and make it rotten.

The war on Iran was planned long ago, now comes the Iranian propaganda parts in order to convince people that it's damn bloody good to kill Persians for mammon:

Regime Change Checklist

I said, "Are we still going to invade Iraq?" "Yes, Sir," he said, "but it's worse than that." I said, "How do you mean?" He held up this piece of paper. He said, "I just got this memo today or yesterday from the office of the Secretary of Defense upstairs. It's a, it's a five-year plan. We're going to take down seven countries in five years. We're going to start with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, then Libya, Somalia, Sudan, we're going to come back and get Iran in five years. I said, "Is that classified, that paper?" He said, "Yes Sir." I said, "Well, don't show it to me, because I want to be able to talk about it." Gen. Wesley Clark

[edit on 18-1-2007 by Regenmacher]