OP/ED: The Tonkin Gulf Incident: Part II Anyone?

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana



"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression" - The Washington Post, August 5, 1964

"President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin." - The New York Times, August 5, 1964

Replace North Vietnam with Iran and it would appear that history is merely repeating itself. As noted above, against the backdrop of a series of “unprovoked” attacks against Untied States Navy destroyers patrolling the Gulf of Tonkin, President Johnson ordered a series of air strikes that dramatically accelerated U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

But eyewitness including the actual task force commander and Congressional Medal of Honor winner James Stockdale, a USN aviator, dispute the official account of the incident.

"I had the best seat in the house to watch that event," recalled Stockdale a few years ago, "and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets — there were no PT boats there.... There was nothing there but black water and American fire power."
Quote

Author Tom Wells wrote in the book The War Within: America's Battle Over Vietnam, that:

"described the air strikes that Johnson launched in response as merely `tit for tat' — when in reality they reflected plans the administration had already drawn up for gradually increasing its overt military pressure against the North."

Over forty years later we seem to be on the same precipice with Iran. From a raid on a Iranian Embassy in Iraq, to leaked Israeli battle plans to use nuclear weapons against Iranian nuclear facilities, it seems that we have moved from political pressure on Iran to a series of events that seem destined to provoke a military response from Iran. The Tom Wells quote comes to mind most of all. As we all know, the data for Iraq, the march to war, the provocations real or imagined, all seemed to follow a preset plan for engaging and taking out Hussein. It takes one small mistake, one person having a bad day to provide the “provocation” needed to repeat the Gulf of Tonkin and all of its consequences.

Like it or not, we of Generation X, Y, and Z now have our own Vietnam war. We are caught in an increasingly unpopular and unwinnable conflict that we will bear the burden of for years to come. There is simply no way the U.S. Armed forces could occupy and pacify Iran. They have almost no control over Bagdad, how would they garrison Tehran with 3 times the population and everybody hostile to our presence. It would be Rumsfieldian to think otherwise. It is rare that ‘We The People” exercise our constitutionally granted powers to evoke a change in direction of the country. We did so in the last elections. It is now in the hands of those recently elected officials to prevent this war from escalating into a larger conflict we cannot win short of wholesale destruction of the Middle East.

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
Senators to Bush: Stay out of Iran
Israel Plotting Tactical Nuclear Strike on Iranian Nuclear Facilities

Standoff With Iranian Gunboats: Powderkeg In The Gulf


[edit on 1/12/07 by FredT]

[edit on 1/12/07 by FredT]

Uh, as someone both alive today and who was a young adult during the viet name war, I fail to see the connection between the events you are trying to connect.

First of all it wasn't an iranian embassy in iraq, it was an iranian diplomatic office in a little town of erbil in northern iraq. Then you mention Israel's "plans" to attack iran with nuclear weapons. Which (both?) of these events seems to you to equate to the tonkin gulf incident? I say neither bear any resemblance whatsoever.

These can be considered troubling events in troubling times. And I understand that some feel the need to try and create the illusion of iraq=viet nam. But to try and sensationalize the events you mention by attempting to tie them somehow to the viet nam war is really a s-t-r-e-t-c-h.

Vietnam and Iraq have numorous parallels:
- THE SURGE: VIETNAM PART II
- Iraq 'surge' has parallels
- Report sees Tet in Iraq
- Sen. Chuck Hagel: Bush plan could match Vietnam blunder
- 'Just like Vietnam,' area veteran says of Iraq
- USM professor parallels Vietnam, Iraq in new book
- Iraq Is Vietnam - And You'd Better Believe It

Kissinger finds parallels to Vietnam in Iraq - Aug 15, 2005
Hagel: Iraq growing more like Vietnam - Aug 18, 2005

Time to end the make believe la-la land ideals or reality will make short work of such stupidity. I have seen less denial in a room full of alcoholics and drug users compared to this adminstration.




[edit on 12-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Lets not forget that theres a congressional delegation going out to Iraq this weekend which will include Senator Hillary Clinton. A couple of stinger missiles at their chopper and a link to Iran and voila... bipartisan support for nuking them to the stone age.

I don't like it one bit.

Hmmmm.

Lets see:

Lots of rhetoric, an Iranian "post" in Iraq seized and people detained, an Isreali plan for anuclear strike leaked (from one of the most secrative militaries in the world, I mean really when is the last time such planes leaked fromt he IDF). If those are not provacations I hm not really sure how to explain them.

All we need to do is move a destoryer close in and allow it to be hit and you have your Persian Gulf Incident.

This is an administration that essentialy came up with the pretext to the war which proved false and now is making like they wish to broaden it extensivly.

If you cannot see the similarities to Johnsons actions (yes, the figurative ship has not yet been hit but the buildup is un-mistakable).

Was the Reichstag fire was an accident too

Originally posted by Nerdling
Lets not forget that theres a congressional delegation going out to Iraq this weekend which will include Senator Hillary Clinton. A couple of stinger missiles at their chopper and a link to Iran and voila... bipartisan support for nuking them to the stone age.

I don't like it one bit.

Now THAT is sinister as hell. Surely not. I'm no fan of Hillary's, but damn. Let's hope this doesn't happen. He might just decide to declare martial law right along with a nuke strike on Iran and Syria, anticipating potential responses from China or Russia. Jeez Nerdling, don't get us thinkin this way plz. Ain't we got enough to worry bout? I mean damn, Intrepid's bout to become US President.

Originally posted by Nerdling
Lets not forget that theres a congressional delegation going out to Iraq this weekend which will include Senator Hillary Clinton.

Just ask the ghost of Ron Brown about that one. Has this been planned in advance Nerdling or is a spur of the moment thing?

NYPOST

"This was the first opportunity we had to be able to go because of the long weekend, and it turns out that the timing is propitious because of the president's plans," said Clinton, who opposes Bush's plan to send more U.S. troops to Iraq.

I shall begin wearing my good luck charms and hoping for the safe return of Momma Bear.

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Vietnam and Iraq have numorous parallels:
- THE SURGE: VIETNAM PART II
- Iraq 'surge' has parallels
- Report sees Tet in Iraq
- Sen. Chuck Hagel: Bush plan could match Vietnam blunder
- 'Just like Vietnam,' area veteran says of Iraq
- USM professor parallels Vietnam, Iraq in new book
- Iraq Is Vietnam - And You'd Better Believe It

Kissinger finds parallels to Vietnam in Iraq - Aug 15, 2005
Hagel: Iraq growing more like Vietnam - Aug 18, 2005

Time to end the make believe la-la land ideals or reality will make short work of such stupidity. I have seen less denial in a room full of alcoholics and drug users compared to this adminstration.
[edit on 12-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Not taking into account that a lot of these quotes are opinion based on what (uruknet?) at best, at least this post does a better job than the OP of trying to make a connection between iraq and viet nam - if you accept their opinions as truth.

So, if you are willing to make the leap of faith suggested by this post and the OP, then make this one, too. Appeasing radical islam is just like appeasing hitler was, and will likely lead to similar results for the West - a war to the death.

by Nerdling
I shall begin wearing my good luck charms and hoping for the safe return of Momma Bear.

Momma Bear? I think I'm gonna puke on my keyboard.


If I was the enemy I'd make the same arguments that can be found in this thread.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Appeasing radical islam is just like appeasing hitler was, and will likely lead to similar results for the West - a war to the death.

Iraq war has already been proven to be an absolute failure, and the opinions expressed by this administration are based on lies, fraud, treachery, theft and treason. So who's so foolish to continue to believing Bush, after being sold a load of crap? Those who embrace perpetual victimhood and love to look like the village idiot?

Poll: 70% oppose troop surge in Iraq
30% mentally impaired, drugged, or paid schills.



[edit on 13-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Iran's Role in Iraq Debated in Congress

Tick... tick... tick...
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