European Union Talks Collapse

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posted on Dec, 13 2003 @ 10:25 AM
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Efforts to forge a landmark constitution for Europe have failed after a major stand-off in Brussels over the share-out of power between member states.

Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host, called a halt when it became clear he could not break the deadlock over voting rights.

He said there had been a "total disagreement" on the crunch issue of voting rights.

Tony Blair said Mr Berlusconi had made the correct decision, saying the bloc should take time to find the "right agreement."

"The essential problem we came to in the end was about the voting system. The problem wasn't about whether Europe should move forward together or not, it was about the voting system," he said.

"To look at this in apocalyptic terms is rather misguided. It's a perfectly understandable disagreement that has arisen."

The aim was to streamline decision-making to avoid bureaucratic and political gridlock when 10 more countries join next May.

But it was one of the newcomers - Poland - which put the dampers on a deal this time round.

Polish prime minister Leszek Miller bluntly refused to consider voting changes in the proposed constitution which would weaken the generous voting power Poland gained in its EU entry terms.

Many issues could have tripped up the summiteers, but the real stumbling block was always going to be the voting dispute involving Poland and Spain on the one side and Germany and France on the other.

Warsaw and Madrid insisted on keeping their current voting strength around the EU policy-making table - 27 votes each, in countries with populations of about 40 million each.

But Germany and France, both with double the population but only two votes more each, were equally insistent on effectively reducing Spanish and Polish clout in future, as set out in the constitution.

The outcome may be a public relations disaster, but even if a deal had been done, the new constitution would not come into force until 2007 at the earliest - and some parts of it not until much later.

Now, where do we go from this point?
For perspectives:
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.guardian.co.uk
www.sky.com/news




posted on Dec, 13 2003 @ 11:18 AM
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The voting rights is the official reason.

The unofficial one is that Poland & Spain have been in the Allied side when France & Germany were, with Russia & China, on Saddam side. So now Poland & Spain know that they will " have to pay " if they loose their actual voting power. Because France & germany want to have their " little revenge ".

I say : Go Spain and go Poland. And of course, fu*$ off France & Germany.



posted on Dec, 13 2003 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
The voting rights is the official reason.

The unofficial one is that Poland & Spain have been in the Allied side when France & Germany were, with Russia & China, on Saddam side. So now Poland & Spain know that they will " have to pay " if they loose their actual voting power. Because France & germany want to have their " little revenge ".

I say : Go Spain and go Poland. And of course, fu*$ off France & Germany.


I must agree with you on that point U_P, Skynews also picked up on that point earlier in an interview with one of the delegations, my main problem with this superstate is the little love-in going on between France and Germany, they want to dominate the superstate to get their own back on the USA for shutting them out of Iraq, i now think Britain should join as we'd be the balancing influence in it, our economy is growing much faster than the french and germans who are almost at the point of recession.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
The voting rights is the official reason.

The unofficial one is that Poland & Spain have been in the Allied side when France & Germany were, with Russia & China, on Saddam side. So now Poland & Spain know that they will " have to pay " if they loose their actual voting power. Because France & germany want to have their " little revenge ".

I say : Go Spain and go Poland. And of course, fu*$ off France & Germany.


Very nice opinion, at least I know why your nick includes the phrase "ultra".

Now listen and read carefully

With all objectiveness given it is just wrong what Spain and Poland want to have. It denies every democratic basics.

In a democracy(and the EU is considered the biggest bunch
of democracy) those countries get most "votes" who represent the biggest population. Depending on the size of your countries population you get more or less votes as other countries.

Transferring this to a common poll it would be that if more people vote for a partyA this party gets more seats in Cabinet or whatever than partyB with far less seats. But now Poland and Spain: we don't care, we represent just a tiny amount of the european citizens but we want seats like we represent 3x more.

It doesn't take much to realize it is not about revenge but about basic principes of democracy. Just imagine..uhm..Ireland(no offense
) asking for 3x more seats as they should have regarding their population. That would be just wrong as now a minority would have much influence and in the end wont reflect what europe wants but only what Ireland likes.

Oh and I know that foreign media likes to make the german economy being worse as worse can be but I invite you to come to Germany and see how poor we all are...and watch all the Nazis here eating Sauerkraut...ah...prejudices aren't nice. Make me happy and show me you have more knowledge than from FoxNews and Skynews.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 01:43 PM
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France and Germany should have more voting rights than Poland and Spain. What are Poland and Spain bringing to the table? Their economies are weak: these people flood to Germany and France for jobs. In reality, whether or not they remain a part of the EU, would have no bearing on the future of Europe.

How about this: A United Americas (both North and South). Would YOU give Paraguay and El Salvador equal voting rights to The U.S. and Canada?



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq
France and Germany should have more voting rights than Poland and Spain. What are Poland and Spain bringing to the table? Their economies are weak: these people flood to Germany and France for jobs. In reality, whether or not they remain a part of the EU, would have no bearing on the future of Europe.

About Poland: ever heard of the MARSHALL PLAN?
Want to know more, I'll tell you something which is a real pain to Poland.

Have you noticed what is happening with german economy lately?
Of course this is just a periodical recession. The EU will give their government more money to rebuild the infrastructure. Poland will receive nothing, unless they will have the opportunity to vote.


Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
The voting rights is the official reason.
The unofficial one is that Poland & Spain have been in the Allied side when France & Germany were, with Russia & China, on Saddam side. So now Poland & Spain know that they will " have to pay " if they loose their actual voting power. Because France & germany want to have their " little revenge ".
I say : Go Spain and go Poland. And of course, fu*$ off France & Germany.

And what else can we do? We must fight for our rights!
The Nice system has been in for all the time before we participated, was that democratic? GO US!

We can't let them make us do whatever they want!



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:04 PM
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About Poland: ever heard of the MARSHALL PLAN?


What did the Marshall Plan have to do with Poland?

And no, I'm not bashing Poland, or Spain. Just saying a new entry into the EU would have to contribute something, not just expect to be on the same playing field as their larger, and more wealthy, counterparts.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq
Just saying a new entry into the EU would have to contribute something, not just expect to be on the same playing field as their larger, and more wealthy, counterparts.


Well, Poland just is rebellous, at least we try to achieve something that will bring us profit, not as other new EU countries (yes, I know they we are behind the other candidates but we are the largest).

Besides, Polish never liked French and German too much. Especially after us going to war and them bashing us for it, we were angered.

Actually, I am not pro-EU. I was against joining it. Now, when the country has decided in a referendum, we want to be FIRST CLASS UE MEMBERS, In socialdemocracy (EU isn't democratic, don't lie to yourself!) everyone has to be equal. If the new countries, with different policies than the original EU countries haven't participated to join it, the Nice system wouldn't be changed.
Germany and France just fight for their power in the EU structures, they want to control everything, not letting others be the part of this. This does suck, we don't want it to be like that.
If they throw us out, I'll be happy!



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:28 PM
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You still didn't answer his question in how far the marshall plan is connected to this all


But I can assure you that not only you would be happy about poland being out of the EU, most europeans would love to see that. The eastern european countries are bringing a new kind of criminality to europe



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:40 PM
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Yes, being a Croatian, I would not like to see Croatia in the EU. But, being married to a German, and living there for a long time, I see alot of Germans who are against the EU also. It takes away from the national character, and in more ways, the sovereignty of most nations in the EU.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by shoo
You still didn't answer his question in how far the marshall plan is connected to this all



It's simple: after the war, the plan to rebuild the destroyed Europe has been made, as we know.
Germany and France used the funds to make a new infrastructure, rebuild their economy.

Poland was proposed to receive funds also.
Unfortunately, as always, people on the top wanted us to build socialism... A BIG mistake.
And good old communists ruled the country for a long time...
We are suckers. Now we at least try to get something of the opportunities. Not spoil it like in the time Marshall plan was introduced to us.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:55 PM
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Mafia God Father and a US puppet..

No wonder that shyte like this happens..

Big cons to Italy and to Silvio..




posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Johnny

Originally posted by shoo
You still didn't answer his question in how far the marshall plan is connected to this all



It's simple: after the war, the plan to rebuild the destroyed Europe has been made, as we know.
Germany and France used the funds to make a new infrastructure, rebuild their economy.


Poland was proposed to receive funds also.
Unfortunately, as always, people on the top wanted us to build socialism... A BIG mistake.
And good old communists ruled the country for a long time...
We are suckers. Now we at least try to get something of the opportunities. Not spoil it like in the time Marshall plan was introduced to us.



I don't think Poland was up for any funds from the Marshall Plan. They were fully under the power of the Soviet Union. No way the Soviets were gonna let any help from the outside in.(Remember the Berlin Lift?)

And not just Germany and France benefitted. All the countries of Western Europe received at least a portion of the funding.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 02:59 PM
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EU will be in even more deeper shyte if they let Eastern, former USSR and Balkan nations to join..

Isnt it enough that we already have France and UK in..
(not to even mention our 3rd world nation Italy, land of corruption and crime..)




posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Johnny

Originally posted by shoo
You still didn't answer his question in how far the marshall plan is connected to this all



It's simple: after the war, the plan to rebuild the destroyed Europe has been made, as we know.
Germany and France used the funds to make a new infrastructure, rebuild their economy.

Poland was proposed to receive funds also.
Unfortunately, as always, people on the top wanted us to build socialism... A BIG mistake.
And good old communists ruled the country for a long time...
We are suckers. Now we at least try to get something of the opportunities. Not spoil it like in the time Marshall plan was introduced to us.


Poland was pressured by the soviets to stay away in the talks of 1947, I doubt there was any chance for western/allied countries to get Poland into the Marshall Plan. It was not because anybody wanted Poland to be socialism.

But is bad luck about 60 years before a good reason to play democracy with versa? I understand that Poland wants to max out their opportunities but if they do that on EU level it's just not fair to the other countries.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:10 PM
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Most Europeans? Surely not....Seems popularity of the EU is dropping and has been:
"Eu's Popularity Waning in Europe"
Link:
www.news.scotsman.com...

Excerpt:
"For the first time in six years, less than half of European Union citizens believe EU membership is a good thing, according to early results of a poll released today.

The number of people favouring EU membership dropped by 6% since spring to 48%, the lowest level since 1997.

Of those polled by Eurobarometer, 46% said the EU personally benefits them, a drop of 4% from spring, while the respondents disliking EU membership rose by 5% to one third overall.

Less than half of respondents favoured expansion of the EU, a level unchanged since the last poll.

Strong support for the euro, at 70%, fell by five points in the same period.

The European Commission blamed the confidence slump on economic woes."


Talking economic problems....Germany and France, both of which have substantial deficits, again, both of which breach the EU Deficit Treaty Limits, and both are seeking to have these absolved......

The EU is growing economically at half the rate that the US is currently growing.
On top of that, you have increasing anti-semitism ever growing within its boundries....


What amazes me is that the EU will have 25 members and its little ole' TWO that are holding the constitution up (Spain and Poland)?! 2 nations don't make a majority, do they? Seems to me that France and Germany are running the show...and any educated Pole would be very, very cynical of those two...memories of Franco-Prussian comes to mind....
This is nothing but more whining from the France and Germany camps in wanting to reduce the combined SPain and Polish votes of 27, which is still less than the combined Germany and France total votes of 29.....but lets see....they want to further decrease Spain's and Poland's voting by making a new voting arrangement??

Poland and Spain simply do not want to cut their rights on what they feel they deserve, and that is simply that every citizen and nation is counted and represented fairly. The sovereignty of a nation or state, just as the rights of an individual or citizen, is by rights, not up for any kind of compromise.

Does make you wonder why Poles have been preferring America as a place for immagrating to for the last 200 years or so........



regards
seekerof



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by FULCRUM
Mafia God Father and a US puppet..

No wonder that shyte like this happens..

Big cons to Italy and to Silvio..



He is a criminal but if the mafia controlles a country you won't find any other big crime than the secret ones of the corrupt government. Think what you want about it but as long as they don't become racists or extreme in any other way I can live with them

- controlled crime is better than shadow crime. At least in my opinion



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq
I don't think Poland was up for any funds from the Marshall Plan. They were fully under the power of the Soviet Union. No way the Soviets were gonna let any help from the outside in.(Remember the Berlin Lift?)

And not just Germany and France benefitted. All the countries of Western Europe received at least a portion of the funding.


Well, I did not mean France and Europe only of course.

Yes, they were under the power of Soviet Union, and it had better plans for us.
So, from that time, we actually were lost...
Later, when the Eastern and Western Germany were merged, great amounts of money flew to rebuild the Easts economy. Today, when these operations did not bring much profit and the east is in the shape of Poland, money from the EU budget is still coming in to rebuild the economy. Actually, it doesn't work. Eastern Germany is still a botomless hole.
Poland won't receive nothing. Now we need these votes to make decisions to help not only Eastern Germany but also us, in the upcoming future.



posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:19 PM
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Easy for you to say..

Your from US SS, you control him..



SS = Secret Service




posted on Dec, 15 2003 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by SeekerofOn top of that, you have increasing anti-semitism ever growing within its boundries....


Any proof of that? I really hate that so many US citizens like to mark Germany or Europe in general anti-semitic but most don't even know more than the name of those.




This is nothing but more whining from the France and Germany camps in wanting to reduce the combined SPain and Polish votes of 27, which is still less than the combined Germany and France total votes of 29.....but lets see....they want to further decrease Spain's and Poland's voting by making a new voting arrangement??

Poland and Spain simply do not want to cut their rights on what they feel they deserve, and that is simply that every citizen and nation is counted and represented fairly. The sovereignty of a nation or state, just as the rights of an individual or citizen, is by rights, not up for any kind of compromise.


Spain+Poland - 27 votes
Germany+France - 29 votes

Spain+Poland - 40,217,413 + 38,622,660 = 78,84
Germany+France - 82,398,326 + 60,180,529 = 142,57

So a population of 78,84 million people gets the power of 27 votes and a population of 142,57 million just gets 29 votes?!
You still think poland and spain deserve so many votes? If it stays like that the message from this would be that Spanish and Polish people have more rights than other EU citizens. That simply can't be, it is mean to be democratic and this means that everything is based on majority decissions!

data from: CIA world factbook





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