God is Plural? (the Trinity)

Recently I've been doing a lot of studying of various theological concepts and comparing them to scripture. One such subject has been the concept of the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Admittedly, the Trinity is a very deep and complex concept and I'm not sure I understand as fully as I can hope to, but I've been having trouble justifying to myself the idea that the trinity is one in being, or that the trinity is three different natures of the same being or essence.

Granted, we must take the translations of our Bibles for what they are, translated, but there is much scriptual evidence of the trinity in the New Testament. As I've been reading my Bible with the idea of the trinity on my mind I began to notice a few verses that seem to refute the unity in essence of the trinity. I suppose I won't get too deep into it right now, I want to hear what others think, so here are things I feel point to a plural God, both in being and existence.

In my New Living Translation (I have a few other versions, I just happened to be reading this one today) the early chapters of Genesis are full of lines where God (the father) refers to himself as "We" while there are others that seem to point to him being singular, at least in thought and motivation. It almost seems as though God speaks to at least one other higher level spiritual being.

Regardless of the translation there are many instances in the Gospels where it seems that Jesus is indeed separate from God the Father. When Jesus is baptized by John a dove descends from the sky and the voice of God is heard to have said "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased".

This would lead us to believe that God the Father, and Jesus the Son are indeed separate at least in being.

Again during the Transfiguration we see a similar scene in which the sky opens, we hear the voice of God the Father speaking "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" More importantly though, we see Jesus transfigured into a being of blinding light, accompanied by two other figures of the same countenance. Two figures which are seperate in being.

We hear Jesus tell the apostles to be one with Him as He is with the Father.

Jesus also tells us that no one can come to the Father but through Him.

He speaks of being filled with the Holy Spirit, as if it's somehow separate from Him.

He tells us that anyone who denies Him on earth, He will also deny before the Father. He says this as if he speaks to the Father, but is not, Himself, the Father.

Suffering in the garden, Jesus speaks to the Father, and receives and answer.

Even on the cross, as Jesus prays for those who are crucifying Him, it seems as though he speaks to another.

I'm sure there are many many more instances where this seems to be the case but I wanted to see how other people felt about this. I've read that Protestants don't teach much about the trinity so not many people have an opinion on it. The church I currently attend is a Methodist one and they don't speak much about it either. However, it seems to me that it is a very important fundamental aspect to Christian Theology and I want to develop an educated view on the subject.

If there are any Mormons reading this I'd love to hear how you feel, since I know the LDS theology is contrary to typical trinitarian theologies.

But I'd love to hear from anyone else as well.

Thanks for listening to my thoughts!

I see it this way: God exists in different forms to interact with us. God, the unseeable. The Holy Spirit: His moving force with which He communicates directly with our souls. Jesus: His human form. When He became Jesus, He emptied this vessel of Himself of complete knowledge/experience of His full self (only in this way could He experience in fullness the essence of being human).

To answer your first question...
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So this means before anything else Jesus was born FROM God.

When God said lets make man in OUR image, he was talking to his Son Jesus. Jesus is also in the image of God (Col 1:15)

Jesus is constantly referred to as God's Son.
Matthew 4:3-6
Matthew 8:28-29 (even by demons)
Luke 4:41
(many scriptures for this one- see below)


Jesus wasn't "All-knowing"
Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Jesus called his Father HIS God
Mark 15:34
(theres a lot more scriptures for this one)
Find me ONE scripture where it says The Son is The Father's God.

Jesus wasn't "co-equal"
Mark 10:17-18 17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good, except God alone.
John 14:28 (English-NIV) "You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Luke 18:19

God is invisible (plenty of people saw Jesus though)
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
John 1:18

Jesus not "all powerful"
John 5:30 (English-NIV) By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

There are plenty of scriptures in the new testament that say
"God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Jesus is, however, called Mighty God. So he is considered A God. But his father is THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.
The "Holy" Trinity is so holy it leaks truth like a siv.

For a more in-depth look, you can go HERE


[edit on 15-1-2007 by tylersch]

[edit on 15-1-2007 by tylersch]

Not that it proves anything, of course, but it might be interesting to note that not once does Paul or any of the other epistle writers mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of their epistles' salutations.
.

reply to post by Shadowflux

. . . I've been having trouble justifying to myself the idea that the trinity is one in being, or that the trinity is three different natures of the same being or essence.

God is not a "being" in the classical sense of the word.
People are beings, as in the term, Human Beings.
People, besides being beings, are also persons.
God, as a term for the collective of god entities, in the view of Christians, is made up of three persons, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Normally the term, God, is used to represent one particular person, God the Father, who represents the godhead as its primary member.
The other two persons of the godhead are "god" in a generic sense, and not referred to as "God", usually.

reply to post by rstrats

. . . not once does Paul or any of the other epistle writers mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of their epistles' salutations.

I think that the other person, the Holy Spirit, does get mentioned, anyway.
One example, I think, of such a mention is in
John 1:33
And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

jmdewey60,

re: "I think that the other person, the Holy Spirit, does get mentioned..."

But not in the salutations, which seems odd if the Holy Spirit is a separate individual within the godhead. Why just address the father and the son, and not the Spirit?

I love this topic. I love to look at the responses and wonder where in the bible they got that interpretation. The bible says that scripture with interpret scripture so I have no use for crazy off the wall interpretations about what a scripture means.

I'm not bashing anyone's beliefs, I just find it funny sometimes.

I personally believe that the bible points to one God and his son, Jesus, who is our savior.

Originally posted by rstrats
Not that it proves anything, of course, but it might be interesting to note that not once does Paul or any of the other epistle writers mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of their epistles' salutations.
.

Which goes with my belief that the "Father" and the "Holy Ghost" are the same.

Also look and see who Jesus' father is

Mat 1:18 KJV - Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:20 KJV - But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Luk 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

reply to post by Shadowflux


It is excellent that you are questioning the concept of the "trinity" and what it truly means. You must always question and expand on your personal growth every day. With that, I will explain briefly what it means to know the main forces of God. Because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are forces of God, not entities as you understand. These forces or powers of the mind consciousness are used to design, implement, create, and enforce all of creation in our "Material Universe." The actual Trinity as you speak of is The Father, The Mother, and The Son. The Holy Spirit acts as a Universal Teacher of the elements of the Trinity in this Physical Plane we live in. In the Bible, it is also called the Comforter, which teaches you all things concerning the Trinity. Before we continue, please read my previous post about who we are and where we come from here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

To understand God is to know who you are. As I said before, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. You can't understand the concept of Trinity unless you know yourself. For God is you.

So after reading the post that I made above, you now understand that you were created from the Mind of God. You also realize that this "Material Universe" was created from the same Mind. God used His Mind Powers (The Trinity) to create what we know in our present world. Let's discuss this in more detail.

The Father -- This is the expanding force of God. It encompasses the blueprint, the design, the drive, the ambition to create the universe. It is the commanding officer so to speak to enforce the construction of all things in this world.

The Mother -- This is the contracting force of God (Ma-ter Light, Mother Light). It is the ACTUAL CREATION. When the expanding force (The Father) sends out The Mother or Feminine Powers out to actually create something, it is called the Mother. Do you realize that your body is the manifestation of The Mother? All things that you see everyday, from trees and plants to animals and human beings are all constructed by The Mother contracting force. The western religions mostly talks about The Father aspect and hardly gets to the Mother side. In addition, a lot of the eastern religions follow only the Mother aspect. People don't realize that both aspects are just as important as the other one.

The Son -- This is the balance force of God. This power keeps The Father and The Mother aspects of creation in total balance, harmony, and act as One! So when Jesus said that he was the only begotten son of God, he was saying that all humans must learn to use The Son force of God to keep all of creation in balance. He himself keeps the balance so must all of people in the universe. As you raise your consciousness, you will understand more about the power of The Son.

So I just described the Trinity that is always actively in motion every day. It is not literally "three persons" as described by most churches. They are powers of God within His mind.

The Holy Spirit -- When you are first born into the Physical Plane, you are granted a teacher or mediator within your consciousness. Its job is to teach you the things I just described to you in this post. It will constantly remind you of who you are and where you came from. Some people learn it in one life time, while others may take hundreds of lifetimes. The Holy Spirit is not part of the Trinity in concept, but it is part of the Mind of God.

Let's review the planes of existence, which are also parts of your mind or consciousness within our "Material Universe." When you combine them, you have the Mind of God, as opposed to the Mind of Man, which I have described in many posts in this forum.

1. Identity Plane
2. Mental Plane
3. Emotional Plane (Or Astral Plane in some teachings)
4. Physical Plane

Each plane corresponds to an aspect of God's Mind, as well as one of the four elements.

1. Identity Plane -- The Father -- Fire
2. Mental Plane -- The Son -- Air
3. Emotional Plane -- The Mother -- Water
4. Physical Plane -- The Holy Spirit -- Earth

As you move up in consciousness (means that you follow the TRUE path of the Kingdom and Salvation), you are "baptized" with an element within your mind. You are baptized with Earth when you are born here in the flesh. You are baptized with Water when you decide to follow a spiritual path. You are baptized with Air when you expanded your spiritual growth by going beyond the church doctrines. You are finally baptized with Fire when your consciousness has expanded to a high form, merging yourself with The Father aspect, your Higher Self. We have a Fifth Element, which is Spirit. You are baptized with Spirit when you have Salvation or Ascension to the Spiritual Realm -- Heaven. Spirit combines all four aspects of God's Mind.

reply to post by rstrats

But not in the salutations . . .

1Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

It looks like it to me here.

reply to post by Shadowflux


Here's the most prominent trinity in everyday life. Thought, Event, Time. Thinking, Acting, and the movement of time and space which is connected to the first 2.

The Trinity was created to overcome a metaphoric inconsistency. If we view the Bible as allegory, it is obvious that we must understand the role of the masculine and feminine in order to have an understanding of the Trinity. The Gnostics had a saying that “The name of the Father is the Son.” (Gospel of Truth) In order for this saying to be understood, we need to identify the “female” with the concept of “name”. Following this logic then the “father” is the original object or idea, the “mother” is the name chosen for the object and the “son” is the object with its new name. This means that every metaphor is the offspring of a father and a mother. For example, if we understand “water” to be a metaphor for “writings” then “writings” is the father of “water”. The literal meaning of “water” is the mother, while the metaphoric meaning of “water” (the name of the Father) is the son.

To put it another way, all allegory relies on a cover story which consists of literal meanings. This cover is female while the real world ideas hidden beneath it are male. The allegory itself is the offspring of the cover and the covered. If the cover story has some real truth, then the offspring is considered male, but if it is complete fiction, offspring is considered female.

Since Christians place “God, the Father” in “heaven” or in the literal layer he appears to be in the feminine realm and therefore, “He” should be a “She”. In order to overcome this issue and still have a masculine appearing god, it was necessary to add a feminine element in the form of the “Holy Spirit” and turn God into the Trinity. This really does not solve the difficulties entirely, since the real “Father” still technically resides in the “underworld”, but it seems to be the best solution the sexist Sophists behind Christianity could come up with.

Originally posted by rstrats
Not that it proves anything, of course, but it might be interesting to note that not once does Paul or any of the other epistle writers mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of their epistles' salutations.
.

That's correct.It does not say anywhere in the scriptures that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Godhead(or even that there is a Godhead) that is extrapolation of the Christian religion and patently false.God is One ...the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.Yahoshua didn't say anything of the Holy Spirit being in a trinity with them because they are the Holy Spirit.God IS spirit not "a" spirit.

This is a very typical example of Christianity creating the doctrines of men when it is so easily provable the scriptures say nothing of them.Is the Holy Spirit real....of course however... there is no Trinity.There is nothing to parse.God is spirit... God is One.

reply to post by Rex282

That's correct.

I just showed that it is not correct in my post above.
There is the Trinity described in the salutation of the letter, 1 Peter.

The Elect (Christians) according to:

1) the foreknowledge of the Father,
2) the sanctification of the Spirit,
3) the obedience and sprinkling of blood of Jesus.

. . . (or even that there is a Godhead) that is extrapolation of the Christian religion and patently false.

You place yourself in opposition to Christianity and use the New Testament to repudiate it, while supporting an extra-biblical religion of your own devising. (which you have a right to do, but what I also have the right to point out, so as to reduce confusion as to where you are coming from, which makes you no different that a Muslim in regards to being a critic of the Christian religion)

Originally posted by jmdewey60

You place yourself in opposition to Christianity and use the New Testament to repudiate it, while supporting an extra-biblical religion of your own devising. (which you have a right to do, but what I also have the right to point out, so as to reduce confusion as to where you are coming from, which makes you no different that a Muslim in regards to being a critic of the Christian religion)

I am very different from a Muslim. I don't place myself anywhere.I write what I write for a reason.I'm only concerned about one thing ...The Truth.Christianity has continued in the tradition of Judaism with a religion that is the doctrine of men.The big difference is Judaism did not claim to know who the Mashiach was ...Christianity does but it is false.They do not know the savior at all because of their traditions of men which make void the word of God to them.They deny the savior of ALL mankind and believe in another Jesus

Yes the scripture prophecy's of the Mashiach have been fulfilled.Yahoshua accomplished what he was sent to do.However he did not return in a parousia in 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism to judge the guilty nation; or for the resurrection of the dead; or the reward of the faithful; or the consummation of the kingdom of God as Preterist believe to fit their false theology of men.He returned as promised to the disciples many years before as the comforter.He did not leave them.

Preterist like all cults of Christianity say they believe but they don't understand what they say they believe at all.Just as Yahoshua said in the prologue to the parable of the seed the many would and could not perceive anything he said but only the disciples would and that veil remains to this day over the many that don't have ears to hear or eyes to see.The religion of man has blinded the world and especially Christianity.When Yahoshua said MANY would come in my name this is what he meant.

"And Yahoshua went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.And Yahoshua said unto them, See you not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?And Yahoshua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.False Christs Shall Come For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many".

The many are "in place of" christs...antichrists.John saw the influx in the 1st century and it has continued ever since.It started with Gnosticism then a few centuries later Catholicism and 2 thousand years later it has blown into Christian sectarianism all of them claiming Jesus as their savior because they are "CHRISTians.

The evidence couldn't be stronger who antichrists is yet the antichrists point their finger at everyone else and condemn them with their doctrines of men.The good news is Yahoshua is the savior of all mankind.Even those that deny his name.Their antichrist kingdom is crumbling and becoming more splintered and divisive yet they are blind to it and believe they are the Kingdom of God.Nothing could be further from The Truth.

"And he said unto me, Seal not the words of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

The time is at hand.The antichrists will remain who they are.They believe they can choose their fate with their free will however they are very wrong.The axe is at the root of the tree.

reply to post by Rex282

The good news is Yahoshua is the savior of all mankind.Even those that deny his name.

You deny Jesus' name by your own "doctrine of men".
You are taking an archaic version of the name of the Old Testament character, the successor to Moses as the leader of the Israelites, Joshua, and saying that was his "real" name, when it had not been in use as a given name since the Torah was written.

Jesus is "savior of all mankind" in that all people by grace have access to the kingdom that Christ is the Lord of, the church.

. . . he did not return in a parousia in 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism to judge the guilty nation; or for the resurrection of the dead; or the reward of the faithful; or the consummation of the kingdom of God as Preterist believe to fit their false theology of men.He returned as promised to the disciples many years before as the comforter.He did not leave them.

The Parousia, think of as "a visitation" in this case, a visitation of vengeance.
It does not say in Jesus' prediction of the Son of Man "in his power" raising anyone from the dead in that event. It says to "gather the elect" which I interpret as those who were to form his church, coming together to get on with it once the encomberance of the standing temple was taken away.
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(2011 NIV)
using the same Greek word as Jesus used in Matthew 24.
The term "the consummation of the kingdom" seems to be part of the definition of eschatology.
I don't see anywhere in the Bible saying that Jesus "returned" as The Comforter.

Preterist like all cults of Christianity say they believe but they don't understand what they say they believe at all.

What is often called Preterism is nothing but the original Christian belief. Futurism is the cult, or rather cults, since there are many versions.
I believe what I understand, since it is the result of my own study, and not what I had believed before about a year and a half ago. All the 2012 "end of the world" hoopla made me take a closer look at the support for the Futurist view and realized that the arguments do not hold up and actually goes against what the Bible really says.

. . . in the prologue to the parable of the seed the many would and could not perceive anything he said but only the disciples would and that veil remains to this day over the many that don't have ears to hear or eyes to see.

Because he was talking about the Jews. If you recall, they rejected Jesus, and later Jerusalem was destroyed, so obviously they did not "get it".

The religion of man has blinded the world and especially Christianity.

That may be your opinion but it was not what Jesus was talking about.

. . . MANY would come in my name . . .

Meaning, "the Messiah", which there were, men who claimed to be just that, the very people who brought down the Romans who ended up wrecking the city and temple.

We're all branches to the Great Tree of Infinite Consciousness, Word/Action and Love/Wisdom, and in addition, the infinite US/We/All of US.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The game of bible chess you are playing ends now.I commend you for hearing enough to believe a few doctrines of men are wrong.It's a step away from where you were... albeit a very ,very small one.Unfortunately you have gone from the frying pan into the fire.I have been doing this longer than you have been alive.You are speaking to the wrong person.

You just had a small revelation and a small sliver of light a whole year and half ago.How many years did you spend in darkness.Do you honestly believe you can "study" your way to God.Do you not know the scriptures at all.I've been saying over and over I don't condemn you or anyone because I know that God has caused a strong delusion that you would believe the lies of religion, always studying but never coming to know the Truth.The Truth is...you don't know what you are doing .. and one day..unfortunately for you not in this age...you will hear and know how foolish you have been.

I am giving you very good advice.My suggestion is you leave me alone and work out whatever it is on your own.You have no idea what you are doing.All the best to you.

reply to post by Rex282

always studying but never coming to know the Truth.The Truth is...you don't know what you are doing ..

My goal when studying the Bible, is first to know what it actually says.
While doing that, I also get a pretty good idea of what it doesn't say, though that is not quite so straightforward and may lag behind the first.
I consider anyone posting on this forum as fair game in my "game of Bible chess" as you put it, to broaden my understanding of what the Bible doesn't teach.
You can choose to not respond, if you don't feel up to it.
This thing in the tread title is significant to me, (the Trinity), because it is something that has concerned me for a long time and what got me into this sub'forum of ATS some years ago, to hash these things out and I have been all over the place during that time as I learn things, and a lot of that comes directly from other members.