Submarine Newport News hits Japanese ship.

Looks like another submarine hit a surface merchant while submerged. Not good for the command. I'll wait for the investigation to see the mitigating factors. As a bubblehead myself, it does not look good for that CO. Surface ships have right of way over any submerged vessel in the courts.
www.foxnews.com...

today.reuters.com... EntNewsIndustry_R1_topnews-1

I am curious, how do you know that there are vessels above the submarine. I understand that you can use microphones to detect vessels of which the engines are on - but how about vessels who are floating still or on anchor? Does a submarine ping before going up? Anyone can explain what the procedures are for a submarine before going submerged?

Paranoid Duck

I would think they'd use the periscope, especially in heavily trafficked shipping lanes.

BTW, also on ATSNN here: U.S. Nuclear Submarine Collides with Japanese Tanker

First of all, I must add a few interesting items or facts.
Mega tankers can draft up to about 120 feet of water when fully loaded. This guy was leaving and loaded, so who knows how deep his draft was. A mitigating factor.
I don't know how deep the water was, so I don't know what water restrictions and depth the submarine was operating at because of them. A mitigating factor.
Background noise? How many contacts were on the surface, how much background noise, and how much biologic noise were there? A mitigating factor.
What was the submarine doing at the depth of collision, and what depth? A mitigating factor.
If the submarine was at a shallow depth, what had the OOD done to minimize the hazards on watch while coming shallow, and what systems did he use to ensure safety of ship precautions. A mitigating factor.
What was the bell on the surface ship? Was she DIW (dead in the water), what kind of screws did she have? A mitigating factor.
Without alot of surface/biologic/storm noise, yes, a submarine can hear anchor chains, and some DIW ships.
Submarines use several passive means to accumulate data prior to coming shallow. They also have some other means that can be used when other data is not good.
Submerged travel is dangerous, that is why it is the CO's responsibility that the ship operates in a safe manner. A surface ship has right of way over a submerged vessel in the international courts.
We will see from the investigation.
I posted this in the weapons section because it is a discussion item and not a news thread. I apologize to any that are bothered by this.
Paranoid, if you want, we can discuss submerging procedures, but they are very basic.

Originally posted by Submergedthreat
...
Paranoid, if you want, we can discuss submerging procedures, but they are very basic.

Yes please, can you explain what the procedures are for submerging to avoid colisions? I am curious, even if it's just basic (of course any clasified material should not be posted so to not to jeopordize your job).

Paranoid Duck





[edit on 9-1-2007 by Paranoid Duck]

I'll go over a few things for basic submarine operations and the differences
between nuke and non'nuc-diesel submarines.
Diesel submarines use diesels as the primary generators and propulsion of their boat. They are electrically driven by main motors that turn the shaft, which is powered either by the diesel or by the onboard large batteries. Generally they drive on the diesels for power when shallow, on the surface, or when charging batteries. The diesels, depending on the type of submarine can be quiet or very noisy, it also depends on the amount of background noise and where it drags the sound on how hard it is to find them. A diesel boat on the battery is generally very quiet, but they are limited to slow speeds and have a submerged limited time based upon the type of batteries or other type of propulsion system they have installed. Almost any submarine is detectable if it is operational, you just have to have the right equipment to find it, and good watchstanders.
Based upon the type of submarine, most can operate submerged at a shallow depth and recharge the batteries, but it is loud. AIP- Air Independant Propulsion types of submarines use variants on the diesel to support extended submerged operations. IE, some use hydrogen, hydrogen peroxide, hydrogen fuel cells, and others use electrolytic units to make hydrogen and pure oxygen. This means they can run the diesels at deeper depths and less noise without being shallow.
A nuclear submarine requires none of this to operate. They can freely operate at any depth. Depending on the country type, they have different noise signatures based upon the technology of the country that built them. Some countries have been very good at quieting versus a diesel. I have seen some submarines that are near undetectable at range, both nukes and diesels.
One thing to remember, when submerged, the water is a near perfect transmitter of sound. What to look for in the ocean? Mechanical sound, any type of it is transmitted very well. If you put your head underwater and slap the top of the water, you get a pounding, most can measure the doppler affect of the sound and tell how far away that sound was transmitted from it.
Near anything operating near the surface on the ocean can be heard by most submarines. IE a helo that is near the surface, they can count the rpm of the rotor and still hear them drop a buoy used to counterdetect them.
A simple hammer dropped on the wrong deck of a submerged submarine can be heard up to hundreds of miles. Mechanical noise......anchor chains, buoys, many things are picked up.
Submarine science, it is an amazing thing.

I dont think some of you are thinking this story through far enough. Think carefully here. This is not that unusual. It happens. It is a danger/hazard of the trade. Yes the skipper is in hot water.

Correct on the draft depths. Water lines painted on the side of most of the tankers I have seen coming into this yard are about 65 feet ..though I know on the super tankers it is deeper. This means that the waters navigated by these ships must be able to accomodate. Often these ships load in deep water from special piers built way out from land.

I have worked on this boat when it was being built here. The USS San Francisco and the USS Greenville too. Ironic to see these names come up and they were all built here.

Read the article carefully. What you need to know is there. Just not in plain sight. Think past our television educations.

Submarines do nothing to give away thier positions if at all possible. THe most dangerous time for a boat is when submerging or surfacing since they want to remain undetected. This is similar to an airplane. The most dangerous time is take off or decending to land.
They know where a surface contact is and what direction ...they just dont often have accurate ranging when needed as they dont like to go active.

Thanks,
Orangetom

What strikes me as strange is the notion that the USN is surfacing a boat /at all/ on cruise.

I guess I understand running emergency surface drills for a bunch of tourists wanting to experience a breach-from-within-the-whale scenario. But there really is no reason to put a sub on or indeed anywhere /near/ the roof unless restricted depths require it and the SOH are hardly that.

Silent Service and all like that there.

Of course there have been multiple incidents from the Vietnam War onwards in which U.S. subs have tailed-too-close foreign merchant ships suspected of 'carrying supplies' to various undesired parties and so I also find it questionable that the 'mightiest and most respected' Navy in the world knows of the hazard and has indeed kept extensive documented lists of U.S. sub casualties since 1915.

Yet does not improve doctrine or training OR TECHNOLOGY to avoid the risks of close-in tracking strikes (which is also a major source of sub:sub collisions) issue.

Indeed, submarines are resoundingly /despised/ by fishermen as, in one 6 year period between 1983 and 1989, over 42 incidents of collision, dragging and _sinking_ were recorded with multiple loss of life.

And to my knowledge, the only thing the USN has done about it is to fund piddling 1 million dollar SBIR 'study contract' for a MAD equivalent EField system.

Which is completely ridiculous. Because, with a 300-600ft boat, near the surface chop zone where wake luminescene and surface diffraction around static hull shadows is easy to spot, you want to use OPTICS and specifically blue light lidar to sweep the area clear as most collisions in fact happen at low crossing angle aspect and speed and/or with the victim stopped and thus can be completely avoided simply by LOOKING WHERE YOU ARE GOING for a few 1,000yds before making the final ascent commit.

One thing is clear: once the in it's terminal approach and contact phasses there is little that can be done to 'back off' an event as the variations in displacement mass and huge viscous flows off the surface ship tend to capture and suckup or tuck-under the boat with large amplitude roll and pitch motions which often leave it with significantly less intuitive control response than necessary to make a successful evasion.


KPl.


LINKS-
42 collisions in one six year period
www.prop1.org...

U.S. Peacetime Accidents
www.dutchsubmarines.com...

EField Contract
rfdesign.com...

Sub:Ship Collision Dynamics
cat.inist.fr...


[edit on 9-1-2007 by ch1466]

With the max draft of that merchant being 67 feet fully loaded, it changes a few things.
Nuclear submarines routinely operate at a shallow depth while on "cruise" or whatever you want to call it-I call it submerged. 67 feet would be a dangerous depth for a submarine changing depth from deep to shallow for any type of mission reason.
I do not think they were surfacing, they were transiting.
I want to see what other mitigating circumstances develop.

"Straits of Hormuz"...
hehe..

Pity it had to happen here..
Anywhere else would've been less 'sensational'.
Any idea where it happened exactly?
Like co-ods?

There is nothing in these articles to indicate that the submarine was running on the surface or even going in opposite directions. Nor going in the same direction. Nor did it say what the depth to the bottom was in that area. You can guess what the depth to bottom was if the boat is built to draw about 65/67 feet. Nothing says that the sub was at that depth either.

The most stark thing to me about the news releases was the absence of information in them. This is what got me to thinking.


Thanks,
Orangetom

Apparently the collision was very minor, no injuries were reported and the tanker only sustained a hole about four by fourteen inches. No report on the damages, if any, to the USS Newport News, given the material and degree of engineering that goes on these ships it's likely it only got a minor paint scratch.

Separately the ship's owner, Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha, announced the tanker suffered a hole of about 10 centimeters (four inches) by 35 centimeters (14 inches) on the bottom of a ballast tank, but that it was temporarily repaired.

The US Navy nuclear-powered submarine USS Newport News collided with the Mogamigawa tanker late Monday in the Strait of Hormuz in the Arabian Sea, one of the world's busiest seaways. No injuries were reported.

Link

[edit on 11-1-2007 by WestPoint23]