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Was the Bible's Goliath a real creature?
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Giants are sometimes mentioned in the Old Testament, especially in some of the Holy Books that were not officially included in the Bible. I seem to
recall they were supposedly the spawn of the "Watchers" (Angels facinated with human affairs) and human women.
Even if you don't believe any of that, it would be easy to conceive of a man, afflicted with Giantism (the pituitary gland disorder), who lived amounf the enemies of the Hebrews. Surely his reputation would preceed him, especially if he towered over all others by more than 2-3 feet. Also, taking into consideration that most people afflicted with Giantism are usually very unhealthy to begin with, is it any wonder that David was able to slay him so easily?
Even if you don't believe any of that, it would be easy to conceive of a man, afflicted with Giantism (the pituitary gland disorder), who lived amounf the enemies of the Hebrews. Surely his reputation would preceed him, especially if he towered over all others by more than 2-3 feet. Also, taking into consideration that most people afflicted with Giantism are usually very unhealthy to begin with, is it any wonder that David was able to slay him so easily?
Queen
I think I know what you might be talking about. In Genesis, there is a reference to the sons of God (most likely angels, specifically the rebel angels that follow Satan) finding interest in the beauty of women and actually coming together with them and producing a hybrid of sorts. Human yes, but something more. This could explain the extra size and whatever other advantages these giants could have had. This may also explain why God hated them, because they were offspring of the demons/fallen angels. However, these angels didn't necessarily appear demonic, but could have appeared as a normal human, as they have abiltities to change appearance. So, no one would necessarily know that anything weird was going on.
I could be a little off on some of this, so give me time to check on it. But I think that's close to what it is.
I think I know what you might be talking about. In Genesis, there is a reference to the sons of God (most likely angels, specifically the rebel angels that follow Satan) finding interest in the beauty of women and actually coming together with them and producing a hybrid of sorts. Human yes, but something more. This could explain the extra size and whatever other advantages these giants could have had. This may also explain why God hated them, because they were offspring of the demons/fallen angels. However, these angels didn't necessarily appear demonic, but could have appeared as a normal human, as they have abiltities to change appearance. So, no one would necessarily know that anything weird was going on.
I could be a little off on some of this, so give me time to check on it. But I think that's close to what it is.
Originally posted by SimpleTruth
Queen
I think I know what you might be talking about. In Genesis, there is a reference to the sons of God (most likely angels, specifically the rebel angels that follow Satan) finding interest in the beauty of women and actually coming together with them and producing a hybrid of sorts. Human yes, but something more. This could explain the extra size and whatever other advantages these giants could have had. This may also explain why God hated them, because they were offspring of the demons/fallen angels. However, these angels didn't necessarily appear demonic, but could have appeared as a normal human, as they have abiltities to change appearance. So, no one would necessarily know that anything weird was going on.
I could be a little off on some of this, so give me time to check on it. But I think that's close to what it is.
But aren't angels spiritual beings? How could they take a material form? Would they even have a "sex", male or female? Could not one of the reasons for the rebellion be that the angels were jealous of human beings? That humans are both physical and spiritual?
The theory on angels mating with humans to produce a "superhuman" is a bit too far fetched, even for me. I 'll put that in the league with a one Reverend Falwell, who stated,
" the reasons the dinosaurs died was because Noah didn't have enough room on the Ark", and " Barney is a new age demon, that promotes homosexuality!"
Originally posted by nathraq
But aren't angels spiritual beings? How could they take a material form? Would they even have a "sex", male or female? Could not one of the reasons for the rebellion be that the angels were jealous of human beings? That humans are both physical and spiritual?
The theory on angels mating with humans to produce a "superhuman" is a bit too far fetched, even for me. I 'll put that in the league with a one Reverend Falwell, who stated,
" the reasons the dinosaurs died was because Noah didn't have enough room on the Ark", and " Barney is a new age demon, that promotes homosexuality!"
I understand your skepticism. Like I said, I need to look over it again. However, the angels didn't join with women to produce superhumans, they just were drawn to them, and the offspring was a result. Whether or not angels can take spiritual form, I need to check on again according to the Bible. However, someone can be possessed or filled with a demon or angel spirit, so at least that is possible. Christ was obviously a child of the human Mary but conceived by the holy spirit, so maybe a spirit doesn't even need physical form to impregnate. Weird stuff, isn't it?
Originally posted by QueenoftheDamned
In a missing book of genesis(don't bite me yet I am looking of links to this alleged book and references in Genesis) There did exist theses super humans who were tall and stronger Goliath seems to fit that genre.
Well, there's stories of giants everywhere... but I'm not sure that we should take them as fact. For instance, in the Coyote legends of the Pacific Northwest, Coyote meets a giant who is so huge that he's swallowed entire civilizations whole and the people are all in his stomach (walking around and dying of hunger) until he swallows Coyote and Coyote cuts him open.
And then there's Polyphemus, the one-eyed giant of the Odyssey; a gigantic carnivore some 20+ feet tall who can eat one or two men as a snack. And the earliest Greek Gods; the Titans... and so on and so forth.
I wouldn't take any of them to be true without evidence, and we really don't have good archaeological evidence of more than one or two people at a time -- much like today when we have the occasional 8-footer or 9-footer.
The flood was them done to wipe out these giants or so it was written. This apparently also explained the out of place artifacts.
But there's no global evidence for a flood. Nowhere. Nada. Zip. In fact, we have tombs and lists of kings from Egypt and Babylon that show their reigns during any number of proposed "Great Flood Years" and there are no reports of flooding and the records continue smoothly (in their own languages) without reference to "everybody died and now Noah's family is here to take things over."
A race of giants would leave behind a LOT of artifacts, including not-easily-moved stones and tools. They would have to have had huge houses and huge pots and huge storehouses. You would find these artifacts in major museums, proudly labeled and on display.
There aren't any such artifacts because there wasn't a race of giants. Individuals, yes. Race, no.
Originally posted by Byrd
I wouldn't take any of them to be true without evidence, and we really don't have good archaeological evidence of more than one or two people at a time -- much like today when we have the occasional 8-footer or 9-footer.
A race of giants would leave behind a LOT of artifacts, including not-easily-moved stones and tools. They would have to have had huge houses and huge pots and huge storehouses. You would find these artifacts in major museums, proudly labeled and on display.
There aren't any such artifacts because there wasn't a race of giants. Individuals, yes. Race, no.
Byrd,
I'm with you on your points, but ever once and awhile some really incongruous shows up...
english.pravda.ru...
This one is from a creationist site (I'm not a creat, but an interesting site nonetheless)
www.biblebelievers.org.au...
It all makes me go..Hmmmmmm...
hrxll
You get me wrong audience. I like nothing more than sniffing out myths and tearing them apart.It's my nature to tear things to shreds.
This story nephilism had some verifiable parts, that was what is holding my interest still.
This story nephilism had some verifiable parts, that was what is holding my interest still.
Yes simple truth you are on my wave length.
I'll either edit my post later to answer you properly or reply again properly.
The angels and human offspring are the giants.
I'll either edit my post later to answer you properly or reply again properly.
The angels and human offspring are the giants.
The bible states quite clearly in the passages about the nephilim that "There were giants in the earth in those days"
For those that believe in god... that ought to be good enough for them.
As for me I question not that the beings people refer to as god existed, but rather that they were anything less than some advanced vistors on an ego trip.
For those that believe in god... that ought to be good enough for them.
As for me I question not that the beings people refer to as god existed, but rather that they were anything less than some advanced vistors on an ego trip.
HE:
I'm afraid that Pravda is a tabloid, and their stories are similar to ones in the National Enquirer. NE is an amusing paper to read, but when they report that an alien invasion force is heading to Earth, I don't think many people believe them... and with good reason.
Pravda's just the National Enquirer of Russia.
As to the "finger", it's been debunked many times. It's a genuine fossil, all right, of a genuine creature (that's the whole creature) from before dinosaurs walked the Earth.
The "Paluxy Man Track" is simply something carved by a local Texas resident. He confessed to the hoax after scholars pointed out that he'd carved the footprint from the wrong direction and left modern tool marks in doing so.
The "hammers in limestone" are real... and modern. They're not fossils (you can see the the wood remains unfossilized.) They've found similar concretions around spark plugs and other modern artifacts. In an area with caves, where water with dissolved limestone drips on something, objects are quickly covered with a rock surface. In Cave Without A Name we saw a bat that was being incorporated into a stalactite... the bat had been there for less than 80 years. And surfaces they made back in the 1940's (like the railings) were coated with a layer of stone from the dripping water.
Fossils are much different. They're not "something covered by stone" but rather "something changed into stone."
So those aren't proof, no. They're mostly hoaxes and bad identifications that someone hung onto (even when shown similar items from other areas that clearly weren't "giant fingers" or "humans with clawed feet.")
I'm afraid that Pravda is a tabloid, and their stories are similar to ones in the National Enquirer. NE is an amusing paper to read, but when they report that an alien invasion force is heading to Earth, I don't think many people believe them... and with good reason.
Pravda's just the National Enquirer of Russia.
As to the "finger", it's been debunked many times. It's a genuine fossil, all right, of a genuine creature (that's the whole creature) from before dinosaurs walked the Earth.
The "Paluxy Man Track" is simply something carved by a local Texas resident. He confessed to the hoax after scholars pointed out that he'd carved the footprint from the wrong direction and left modern tool marks in doing so.
The "hammers in limestone" are real... and modern. They're not fossils (you can see the the wood remains unfossilized.) They've found similar concretions around spark plugs and other modern artifacts. In an area with caves, where water with dissolved limestone drips on something, objects are quickly covered with a rock surface. In Cave Without A Name we saw a bat that was being incorporated into a stalactite... the bat had been there for less than 80 years. And surfaces they made back in the 1940's (like the railings) were coated with a layer of stone from the dripping water.
Fossils are much different. They're not "something covered by stone" but rather "something changed into stone."
So those aren't proof, no. They're mostly hoaxes and bad identifications that someone hung onto (even when shown similar items from other areas that clearly weren't "giant fingers" or "humans with clawed feet.")
Originally posted by Byrd
HE:
I'm afraid that Pravda is a tabloid, and their stories are similar to ones in the National Enquirer. NE is an amusing paper to read, but when they report that an alien invasion force is heading to Earth, I don't think many people believe them... and with good reason.
Pravda's just the National Enquirer of Russia.
That explains why I found it in the loo....
So those aren't proof, no. They're mostly hoaxes and bad identifications that someone hung onto (even when shown similar items from other areas that clearly weren't "giant fingers" or "humans with clawed feet.")
Well, Thank You. You certainly cleared that up. I remember seeing a site that detailed several sites with gian human bones. Do You think most of them are hoaxes?
regards,
hrxll
Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Yes Goliath was a real creature, created by God, and God didn't liked those Giants, and God killed them too (Nephilim) even though they build the Refaim (of which is also spoken in the Bible) which looks like Stonehedge, in Israel.
So let me get this straight.
The all knowing God, the creator of all, Creates these giants, and kills them.
Why would god create them knowing all well that he would hate them, so he kills them?
Errrrrrrrrrr...that does not make sense to me.
The average hight of humans those days was shorter than it is now, so im sure andre the giant might have appeared as a giant to them.
Deep
Haha why did God kill the Egyptians while he created them too? Why did God created animals, while he knew they would be destroyed by the Flood? Why did God created us if the Apocalyps is for us? Why did he create Lucifer and the angels, if he knew 1/3th would be killed by him?
And you are still talking about the almighty, alknowing God and stuff, while the God of Christ and Orion were also created according to the whole Egyptian religion.
Does it make sense to think it doesn't make sense God killed his own made Giants while he seems to do nothing else then to destroy creations of himself ?
HE -- do you have links to the sites with the giant bones? To date, I'm familiar with early hoaxes and early misidentification of prehistoric
beasts but I'm not familiar with any archaeological discoveries of unusually large human bones.
I haven't had forensic pathology yet (that's one course that I will take for my degree) but I did have both human anatomy (at Texas Tech Medical School) and comparative vertebrate anatomy a zillion years ago and could look at pictures and give an opinion on them.
Gimme some links and I'll see if I can comment.
[Edited on 16-12-2003 by Byrd]
I haven't had forensic pathology yet (that's one course that I will take for my degree) but I did have both human anatomy (at Texas Tech Medical School) and comparative vertebrate anatomy a zillion years ago and could look at pictures and give an opinion on them.
Gimme some links and I'll see if I can comment.
[Edited on 16-12-2003 by Byrd]
Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
Does it make sense to think it doesn't make sense God killed his own made Giants while he seems to do nothing else then to destroy creations of himself ?
God didn't create the Giants the angels did by fornicating with human females. God wiped the Giants out as they had become sadistic and greedy to the humans allegedly.
I think not 100% that the females were put on earth just to breed with the angels not to be mated with by the human males. When the giants began to show their nature was not nice, God destroyed them via the flood and let the humans breed amongst them selves what was left of them.
It does imply that Eve is not human or in Gods own image like that of Adam same with Cain he was not of an Adam image, Able was. So what were Eve and Cain then? Neanderthals? Animals or?
QueenoftheDamned, you say by this actually that the Angels and God are different. God is the almighty, and the angels he made. What however if the
angels were God. You might say that God is just one person... but look at The Catholic
Encyclopedia God is actually plural. Next to this there is also spoken of menkind created to the equal of elohim, in it's plural form. Next to
this God is just a name just like Menkind, it is synonymous to all menkind, just like God is for all the angels.
Just look at Ezekiel chapter one, God is described in there. Doesn't look like the almightyness to me.
The angels of which you talk about are the Gods, also look at the Egyptian religion, Ra was just like the other Gods, and Seth and his angels lost, while Ra was just the head of the angels, doesn't mean he wasn't an angel himself.
What if the Gods are exactly the same as the angels?
Just look at Ezekiel chapter one, God is described in there. Doesn't look like the almightyness to me.
The angels of which you talk about are the Gods, also look at the Egyptian religion, Ra was just like the other Gods, and Seth and his angels lost, while Ra was just the head of the angels, doesn't mean he wasn't an angel himself.
What if the Gods are exactly the same as the angels?
God is opnipresent...omni.......omni........
You get what Im talking about.
God is all knowing, he knows the past, present, future.
So then why Create something that you know will disobey you?
That does not make sense to me.
Also remember im coming at this from a much different aspect of God, than that of Christain bias.
Leen,
Would you give birth to a son if you know he would only disobey you and leave you on your knees 20 years from now?
Would you give birth to a creature whose only aim was to reak hell, and savage the minds of humans?
Christian Bias,
God mad humans in his image,
his perfect image,
Are we a perfect race?
If we are Gods perpetual image, then we have alot to worry about.
Deep
You get what Im talking about.
God is all knowing, he knows the past, present, future.
So then why Create something that you know will disobey you?
That does not make sense to me.
Also remember im coming at this from a much different aspect of God, than that of Christain bias.
Leen,
Would you give birth to a son if you know he would only disobey you and leave you on your knees 20 years from now?
Would you give birth to a creature whose only aim was to reak hell, and savage the minds of humans?
Christian Bias,
God mad humans in his image,
his perfect image,
Are we a perfect race?
If we are Gods perpetual image, then we have alot to worry about.
Deep
God is opnipresent...omni.......omni........
You get what Im talking about.
Yes I get it, but what if he isn't, but if he just looked omnipresent...omni...omni... thousands of years ago?
If he to makes mistakes and stuff... does it then makes sense that he creates something of which he isn't sure it is right?
What if you question that omnipresent thing?
Ps. yes we have a lot to worry about, just think about the Apocalyps. And only if I would be not omnipresent I would create something which I have to destroy after I realise it isn't perfect... perhaps God isn't omnipresent at all.
[Edited on 18-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]
Originally posted by LeenBekkemaa
God is opnipresent...omni.......omni........
You get what Im talking about.
Yes I get it, but what if he isn't, but if he just looked omnipresent...omni...omni... thousands of years ago?
If he to makes mistakes and stuff... does it then makes sense that he creates something of which he isn't sure it is right?
What if you question that omnipresent thing?
Ps. yes we have a lot to worry about, just think about the Apocalyps. And only if I would be not omnipresent I would create something which I have to destroy after I realise it isn't perfect... perhaps God isn't omnipresent at all.
[Edited on 18-12-2003 by LeenBekkemaa]
Give me a break LeenBekkemaa! You're doing nothing but being an @ss. If you don't believe in God, just say it, rather than asking everyone these childish questions that hint at Him making mistakes. Why not just focus on the topic at hand? I hate it when people go totally off the subject and start questioning people's beliefs and religious concepts. That does nothing but %^&@ up the topic.
(Back to the topic) I think Goliath was real. I view the Bible as being one of the most accurate history books out there. Plus, I find it perculiar how many cultures have stories pertaining to giants.
j619pinoy,
It looks like giants really existed. The U.S. Geological Survey documented the excavation of giants (skeletons between 7 and 8 feet tall) in the late 19th century when investigating the mound builders of the Ohio valley. The documentation exists in the 12th Annual Report to the Bureau of Ethnology, 1896. (A man named Cyrus Thomas led the excavations.) Most of the remains they found were of normal height, but they did find a number of giants.
As far as the Bible goes�
Nephilim (often translated as giants) is based on an Aramaic word, Naphal, and literally means �the fallen ones� or �those that fell.� It was a word the Hebrews used to describe a certain group of people that were not Semitic. Who were they? When Joshua and the scouts entered Canaan for their �spy� mission they observed some very tall people and referred to them as the Anakim, or the sons of Anak. They knew who they were because they had encountered them before by their ancestors.
When Abraham migrated to Canaan he told the story of how a king an alliance of kings led by Chedorlaomer of Elam marched on the southeast region of Canaan just east of the Jordan River, which is biblically known as Edom and Moab. (Elam is a great plain north of
the Persian Gulf and east of the lower Tigris.) There they destroyed the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim, and the Horites of
Mount Seir.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Rephaim is the Hebrew term for �giants� and Zuzim is translated as �the strong� (ha�izzuzim) or �the mighty� (ha-�ezuzim). Emim are also considered giants. The author of Deuteronomy describes these tribes as people that �dwelt there in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; which also were accounted giants (Reph�aim in Hebrew), as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.� The name Horite comes from the nature of aboriginal dwellings in Idumaea and is confirmed by excavations in the mountains of Edom. In other words, they were cave dwellers. Anakim refers to people with big necks.
It certainly looks like they were aboriginal inhabitants of the region that happened to be on the tall side of genetics. So why were they attributed as an �evil� people? The Book of Enoch explains it more in depth than Genesis 6:1-4. They were another culture that taught the people the ways of civilization, but after a few generation things didn�t go well with the mixing of cultures so the proto-Hebrews gave them an �evil� moniker (people have a habit of �demonizing� their opponents.) Because of this they were referred to the �fallen ones� or Nephilim.
As far as being giants � they happened to be a relatively tall people.
It looks like giants really existed. The U.S. Geological Survey documented the excavation of giants (skeletons between 7 and 8 feet tall) in the late 19th century when investigating the mound builders of the Ohio valley. The documentation exists in the 12th Annual Report to the Bureau of Ethnology, 1896. (A man named Cyrus Thomas led the excavations.) Most of the remains they found were of normal height, but they did find a number of giants.
As far as the Bible goes�
Nephilim (often translated as giants) is based on an Aramaic word, Naphal, and literally means �the fallen ones� or �those that fell.� It was a word the Hebrews used to describe a certain group of people that were not Semitic. Who were they? When Joshua and the scouts entered Canaan for their �spy� mission they observed some very tall people and referred to them as the Anakim, or the sons of Anak. They knew who they were because they had encountered them before by their ancestors.
When Abraham migrated to Canaan he told the story of how a king an alliance of kings led by Chedorlaomer of Elam marched on the southeast region of Canaan just east of the Jordan River, which is biblically known as Edom and Moab. (Elam is a great plain north of
the Persian Gulf and east of the lower Tigris.) There they destroyed the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim, and the Horites of
Mount Seir.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Rephaim is the Hebrew term for �giants� and Zuzim is translated as �the strong� (ha�izzuzim) or �the mighty� (ha-�ezuzim). Emim are also considered giants. The author of Deuteronomy describes these tribes as people that �dwelt there in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; which also were accounted giants (Reph�aim in Hebrew), as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims.� The name Horite comes from the nature of aboriginal dwellings in Idumaea and is confirmed by excavations in the mountains of Edom. In other words, they were cave dwellers. Anakim refers to people with big necks.
It certainly looks like they were aboriginal inhabitants of the region that happened to be on the tall side of genetics. So why were they attributed as an �evil� people? The Book of Enoch explains it more in depth than Genesis 6:1-4. They were another culture that taught the people the ways of civilization, but after a few generation things didn�t go well with the mixing of cultures so the proto-Hebrews gave them an �evil� moniker (people have a habit of �demonizing� their opponents.) Because of this they were referred to the �fallen ones� or Nephilim.
As far as being giants � they happened to be a relatively tall people.
j619pinoy, if you would have read what I said you would have seen that it isn't oftopic but just an answer to a question after my answer before. Next
to this I also believe in the Gods, what about the so-called childish questions? Is a person not allowed to give answers anymore?
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