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posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by soshootme
There are hundreds and thousands of documents from Jesus' time that are about Jesus.

We don't have a single document from his lifetime or the near years after that mention him. Our oldest copies of the gospels are from a long time afterwards.


His crucifixion was recorded by roman officials at the time(i'll try to find links),

I beleive you are mistaken. We know that Pilate existed. We have no record of him executing a minor criminal like jesus.


and the Jews as well wrote VERY much about him and recorded things he did.

The only jewish source that'd be considered contemporary is Josephus, and if I understand correctly, the one mention made is of questionable authenticity, and some even don't consider it to have been refering to jesus.


One of the more compelling arguments is that the Jews recorded and wrote alot about Jesus' acts and miracles.

They didn't write about him during his time. They afterwards considered him, and, if I understand correctly, they got their stories about him from the christians.


You'd be hardpressed to find a well-educated, well-informed, common sensed historian that would deny the existence of Yeshua of Nazareth.

I'd tend to agree. We don't have documents talking about him from that time. But we do have early church fathers who were claimed to have been 'students' of the apostles themselves, and either way, someone was spreading the movement around. Its not unreasonable to think that it did stark with a charismatic leader who was martyred. We can't prove it, but it seems reasonable enough.


The kind that allows for irrational, come up with any thing to try and disprove them, thinking.

Well, lets be honest here. Talking about worshipping a Jewish Zombie and him magically turning bread into meat is pretty darned irrational. Glass houses, no?



murphs
The Vatican archives might be a start!

Lets be serious for a moment.

The Vatican is a tiny complex of buildings in rome, the jesus movement was popular in rome, tarsus, jerusalem, and all over the empire.

The vatican simply can't have gotten every record that ever existed of the jesus movement. And if they could've, why would they hide them? The vatican was a christian place, the church fathers were christians, they were beleivers. And if the message of jesus was so radically different than what the vatican was preaching, the christians around the empire, who wouldnt've given a fig about 'the vatican', because it wasn't the center of christendom, wouldn't've listened to it.

Neverminding that the Orthodox Church was never under the control of the papacy or the vatican.


So, it doesn't make any sense at all to say that there was a large corpus of eyewitness accounts to jesus and that the vatican was able to get all of them at a time when it was just a local, city-wide authority, to hide in an archive that didn't even exist at the time, AND that they'd be inclined to cover-up the teachings of their own master, and that people who wanted nothing to do with the vatican would follow suite.




posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan


murphs
The Vatican archives might be a start!

Lets be serious for a moment.

The Vatican is a tiny complex of buildings in rome, the jesus movement was popular in rome, tarsus, jerusalem, and all over the empire.

The vatican simply can't have gotten every record that ever existed of the jesus movement. And if they could've, why would they hide them? The vatican was a christian place, the church fathers were christians, they were beleivers. And if the message of jesus was so radically different than what the vatican was preaching, the christians around the empire, who wouldnt've given a fig about 'the vatican', because it wasn't the center of christendom, wouldn't've listened to it.

Neverminding that the Orthodox Church was never under the control of the papacy or the vatican.


So, it doesn't make any sense at all to say that there was a large corpus of eyewitness accounts to jesus and that the vatican was able to get all of them at a time when it was just a local, city-wide authority, to hide in an archive that didn't even exist at the time, AND that they'd be inclined to cover-up the teachings of their own master, and that people who wanted nothing to do with the vatican would follow suite.

I am being serious and never more.
I said a start, we know there are *top secret* documents there, dating back to the time of Jesus but we don't know what, what they say or what condition they are in.
I am a devout catholic but over the years, I am becoming more despondent with the business organization behind my Religion. Jesus was humble and communistic, the Vatican is capitalistic and materialistic.
Why was information not released? Your guess is as good as mine but you have got to realise that organised Religion was instigated and established by Man. There is nothing as corrupt and selfish as man. There is nothing as corrupt and selfish as a powerful man. In early Roman Christainity when these documents were sent into hiding, the Church of Rome was run by the wealthy and the Royal lines of Europe. The earliest Popes were the most corrupt and dysfunctional men in the world.
Jesus might have been infallable but human man isn't. There is also the allegations that St Jerome re-wrote the Old and New testament, when he translated from Greek to Latin. Where are the original texts?
Actually the Orthodox Church did come under the teachings of Rome for a very short while in the Middle Ages.
I know it is a mission of Benedicts to get the Orthodox church back under the shawl of Rome. He has started negotiations but I think this would be catastrophic.
Who is to say Judaism hasn't got hidden texts somewhere. They never excepted Jesus.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 09:55 AM
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Sorry..Speed typing.
Last line..Accepted.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by Murphs
we know there are *top secret* documents there, dating back to the time of Jesus but we don't know what, what they say or what condition they are in.

I'm sorry, but, how do you know this???


Jesus was humble and communistic, the Vatican is capitalistic and materialistic.

Lets recall that you are basing your understanding of jesus upon the new testament, which is the same book that the vatican uses.

I do no see the 'communist christ' you are seeing. He does say that its easier for a camel to thread a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
He also says to pay your taxes on time and not mess with the system. Because the system is part of the mortal world, and the mortal world is irrelevant. His apostles, for example, convince runaway slaves to return to their masters. Not very communistic. Seems like the whole movement was 'beyond capitalism/communism'.


In early Roman Christainity when these documents were sent into hiding, the Church of Rome was run by the wealthy and the Royal lines of Europe.

Please demonstrate this.

If a person wanted power in the time of early christianity, becoming bishop of rome wasn't a very good way to go about it.



The earliest Popes were the most corrupt and dysfunctional men in the world.

If nothing else, they were NOT all powerful. Their authority didn't extend beyond the city of Rome. If they told people in carthage to burn their gospels, people wouldn't listen to them, because they were nobodies. The biggest cities had their own authorities, who were not beholden to one another, and the towns and villages and other cities didn't have to listen to anyone.
The papacy's reach, at its absolute best, covered part of western europe.

Not all of europe, but only part of western europe. If the pope at the heigh of his power told people in moscow to burn their bibles and replace them with some 'other' catholic version, they simply wouldn't listen to them.

And when we find old christian communities, like the copts in egypt, or the assyrian christians, or the syro-malabar christians, seperated from the events in europe, they don't have gospels that present a radically different jesus, when, if the papacy, or even pre-schismatic church fathers, had suppressed 'authentic' christianity with 'jesus is god respect the church' christianity, we'd expect them to have different gospels.


Actually the Orthodox Church did come under the teachings of Rome for a very short while in the Middle Ages.

The metropolitians and patriarchs of the greek orthodox church didn't accept the rule of Rome.


Who is to say Judaism hasn't got hidden texts somewhere. They never [accepted] Jesus.

THere could very well be unknown jewish texts that date from the time of jesus and deal with him.
But we don't have any. So what does it matter?
There could be unknown texts that dissapeared and that quote jesus directly as saying 'the bishop of rome is the head of the christian church', but we don't have any, so what does it matter?



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:59 PM
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quote: You'd be hardpressed to find a well-educated, well-informed, common sensed historian that would deny the existence of Yeshua of Nazareth.

Well, you're at least half right. The "of Nazareth" part is seriously disputed by lots of those historians you obliquely reference.

This is a horse that has been flogged beyond death so, if you want to read complete discussions on the topic, do a search in this ATS Forum (and beyond). It is widely held that the whole "Nazareth" thing was a mistranslation from the original "Nazarene" which does not refer to the town of Nazareth (which many believe did not even exist as a town until a few hundred years after Jesus). But, whether the town existed or not, the main point is that this is an oft-repeated mistake on the part of Christian re-tellers of the story of Jesus for the last few centuries.

Based on my readings, I tend towards the "composite Jesus" theory. The current stories are based on composites of the real and the fabulous and the "real" parts probably belong to several different people. But, you believe what you wanna believe and I'll do the same. ;-)



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by soshootme
Its kinda like saying "You can never prove that John Lennon actually existed, and if he did, you still can't prove that he was in the Beatles."


Oh but how I can prove John Lennon existed.

IMAGINE.



[edit on 15-1-2007 by mrwupy]



posted on Jan, 21 2007 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
I'm sorry, but, how do you know this???

Sorry late getting back to you..We have had lots of power cuts and I have had work..This is a thinking post not a quick quote..Will have to do it in 2 parts to get my thoughts in..This is 1st edition!

It is a well known fact among all historians, Catholics and the Catholic Clergy. It was actually a major discussion I had would one night in the Palace of the Bishop of an adjoining Diocese, my Diocesan Bishop and one of my closest child-hood friends who is a priest in Rome and an advisor in Canon Law.
One Bishop felt that it has been hid for centuries and to leave it there, the other felt it should be disclosed because secrecy breeds conspiracy. (This I agree with!) My friend confirms that there are secret/sealed vaults in the Vatican Archives, as he is a regular there and has seen them. Only very few know what is in them.
I am surprised you don't know they exist, millions and I mean millions know of there existance. John Paul II admitted to their existance but said they were sealed and would remain sealed.
Allegedly but also vaguely confirmed are scientific documents and other documents relating to the inquistion. The Catholic Church until recent times was very opposed to science but this was born out of fear. The fear that their Myths and legends (The Bible) and their basic teachings would be dispelled. It was case of dumbing down of the masses.
Remember I am a devout Catholic but to be devout and to see why they do what they do and to embrace my faith, the way I want to, I have to look at things objectively.


Lets recall that you are basing your understanding of jesus upon the new testament, which is the same book that the vatican uses.

I do no see the 'communist christ' you are seeing. He does say that its easier for a camel to thread a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
He also says to pay your taxes on time and not mess with the system. Because the system is part of the mortal world, and the mortal world is irrelevant. His apostles, for example, convince runaway slaves to return to their masters. Not very communistic. Seems like the whole movement was 'beyond capitalism/communism'.

Yes, I am talking about the NT but you are obviously seeing something I am not. Jesus lived the communal life, his (existing, not him personally) form of Government at that time was Communism. "one for all and all for one." I think the West, in particular the US. Has a very skewed idea of Communism because of Russia and China but also because of the propoganda of their country, they are fearful of actually looking at Communism properly and embracing the idea as a governing ideal. It has been a very successful model of government for Millenia, until the actions of Russia and China. They have demonised Communism and people can't see through this US led propoganda and admit that Jesus was a communist and alot of his teachings were communist. I am a rampant communist and socialist. I believe a human is a human, we are no different, no-one should be treated as such and everyone should be entitled to the same basic rights. In a capitalistic society this is NOT the case, so Christians in a capitalistic society are "Good living for a living" and hypocrites! Though I also know of Christians who live in a capitalistic society and live a communistic lifestyle.
The US is the most capitalistic country in the world but also one of the most right-wing Christian. That is a hell of alot of hypocrites! There is a reason John Paul II called America " Cafeteria Catholics"
I think the issue about taxes and the slaves is pretty basic. Communists and socialists have taxes..It is about obeying rules and respecting rules even if you don't like them.

I will continue later today or tomorrow..



posted on Jan, 21 2007 @ 05:36 PM
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The dead sea scrolls are an eye witness account of a miracle man named Jeshua.The scrolls have been proven to be around the times of Herod.These scrolls have not been touched by the romans, the jewish believers or the early church.they were untouched for 1,940 years when the people of Masada put them in a cave.so there is proof that a man named Jesus (JESHUA) lived in that time. I just laugh at all you Christian bashers who look stupid when you get your info from people like Dan Brown or the ACLU. Leonardo Da Venci's (not sure of spelling) painting of The Last Supper was wrong in about every way.For people who think he had inside knowledge of a marriage between Jesus and Mary, he sure got a lot of Jewish customs wrong. As a Jewish believer myself, i know he got some things wrong. like, 1. sitting at the table with shoes, a big no-no at the time. 2. Jesus sitting in the middle of the table, instead of at the begining, like a master of ceremonies would have. 3. the table being straight instead of a U shaped table. 4. they would not be sitting on chairs, they would be sitting on the floor with legs crossed or leaning on their sides on some pillows. As for Easter and Christmas being pagan, i think we have the Catholic church to thank for that. some of the early Christians were Romans, they wanted to believe in Jesus,but wanted to worship their pagan gods too.God knows my heart,so when i celebrate Easter or Christmas,he knows my true intentions. I surely wish that you athiest would attack Darwin instead of GOD for a failed religion you call Evolution.I can prove to me, in my heart that GOD exist. but you can't prove to yourself that Evolution is real. i can ask you a some simple questions that you,Darwin or the bigshot ACLU lawyers from the famous Scoope's trial couldn't even answer.For all of you believers on this web-site go to www.creationevidence.com or www.answersingenisis.com you will be stunned.and if you have Dish Network, go to the Angel Network Channel and watch The Creation Network program. IT IS AWESOME!I can't believe that evolution is still being forced onto our kids in school.I'm not saying that the bible should be taught,i would not want some non-believer to teach my child about GOD.Darwin said "we would be tripping over missing links,because there would be so many". Still no proof. Evolution is a theory, not a fact!



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 01:34 AM
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I made a mistake. not the dead sea scrolls, but the scrolls they found on the mountain belonging to the people of Masada. i'm thinking of 2 different things. Sorry



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by evolutionisahoax
I made a mistake. not the dead sea scrolls, but the scrolls they found on the mountain belonging to the people of Masada. i'm thinking of 2 different things. Sorry

The Masada scroll of Jeshua Ben Sira has nothing to do with jesus as it has been dated to c. 180 BCE. Also the dead sea scrolls make no mention of jesus.

As to why atheists dont attack evolution, its because evolution is based on fact that can be tested over and over again, while god on the other hand is based on belief in the unknown - a belief that cannot be tested and proven as fact.



G



posted on Jan, 22 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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As I've stated so many times, too many times: Just because someone does not believe in the stories or the divinity of the Christian Jesus does NOT mean that they are an atheist. I am most certainly not an atheist nor do I "bash" Christianity. Any person who makes light of the firmly held beliefs of another person is not a very nice person in my opinion.

I do not claim that there was never a "Jesus" but I have more reasons than not to seriously doubt the currently used Christian NT stories about this person who may or may not have lived.

I don't have any problem beleiving (without any evidence) that the RCC has some very old texts secreted away somewhere. I also know that a great many of the world's ancient texts have been destroyed and I sincerely hope we find any that may have survived but, we quite clearly do not yet have any evidence of any written account by any eye-witnesses to the Christian Jesus. That fact should in no way intimidate anyone or shake their faith.

Faith is a powerful and extremely valuable gift from G-d. If you have faith in the stories of Jesus and if you firmly believe in the divinity of Jesus then, I wish you well and congratulate you in your peace. Please extend that same courtesy to those who believe something else.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by Al Davison

I don't have any problem beleiving (without any evidence) that the RCC has some very old texts secreted away somewhere.
An what is in these secret documents that needs to be kept secret - you would think if they had absolute proof then they would unveil it to the world, maybe the information they have disproves the christian religion's basis


I also know that a great many of the world's ancient texts have been destroyed and I sincerely hope we find any that may have survived but, we quite clearly do not yet have any evidence of any written account by any eye-witnesses to the Christian Jesus. That fact should in no way intimidate anyone or shake their faith.
And many of them destroyed by christians because they disagreed with the christian doctrine of the time. But then again, even if these documents were found and disproved a religious tenet, the church would just denounce them as heretical and go on as its always done, deceiving the populace


Faith is a powerful and extremely valuable gift from G-d. If you have faith in the stories of Jesus and if you firmly believe in the divinity of Jesus then, I wish you well and congratulate you in your peace. Please extend that same courtesy to those who believe something else.
Faith is NOT a gift from a deity but a mindset produced by the 'evidence'.


G



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