race of the ancient egyptians still on debate?

Originally posted by Marduk

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
Based on ridiculously abundant evidence, i've come to the conclusion they were very much a black people.

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
I believe in a mixed egypt marduk

changed your mind then have you ?

Who were the original egyptians?

did you miss it the last time
the Badarians were the orignal egyptians
they were a mixed race people (african and levant)

[edit on 12-1-2007 by Marduk]

I never said they were always black...despite egypt being mixed after a certain time it was a product of blacks...just like how the U.S. is a product of white men who descended from britian. (but over time came to be mixed)

nice try, but you took my words out of context...

Concerning badarians: "re-analyses of previous studies, including Professor Strouhal's paper, reveal that only West and South African skulls were included in the baseline for a determination of "true negro" though, while the typically elongated East African skull forms were disregarded, assumed not to indicate true blacks. Some recent studies additionally suggest a modal metric phentoype in Badarian crania indicative of the Tropical African [1]."

so basically since east africans aren't true negros, they weren't included in the study. How interesting...

^ the study could not have been more biased.

PS: You contradict yourself once again as a mixed race was homogenous at some time. The Africans as you are reffering to mixed with people of the levant as you say meaning *immigration* to egypt from the levant, and an original unmixed population.


Have you seen the "types of mankind" that was basically the egyptians view on their surrounding peoples, and how they identified themselves?


upload.wikimedia.org...

^ the irony of that pic is that euronuts tried to use it as evidence of egypt being a mixed race...later discoveries now show such a skin tone to be common and well indeginous. I have seen it in color, and it depicts the ancient egyptians as having a reddish brown color...it is the man on the far left that they identified as "egyptian".

Such a skin tone is common in east africa suggesting yet another relation in the past...and ironically east africans weren't considered in that study to show it.

Keep in mind there are others besides east africans and that egyptian that have that skin tone, in africa...such is indeginous to its regions as said, and not a product of admixture. I don't debate population mixing in the area, and don't plan to.




Marduk can you provide pics of what you believe an avereage ancient egyptian looked like, and a person from egypt that most resembles it? (just curious)

Also what is your view on the land of punt?



[edit on 12-1-2007 by nur23_you55ouf]

[edit on 12-1-2007 by nur23_you55ouf]

[edit on 12-1-2007 by nur23_you55ouf]

[edit on 12-1-2007 by nur23_you55ouf]

For more info concering the relationship between AE and EA:

www.egyptsearch.com...

[edit on 12-1-2007 by nur23_you55ouf]

According to this thread, our arguement was flawed the moment we mentioned race...

www.egyptsearch.com...


Makes sense, as nowadays scientists have debunked of the term "race"

(notice the member who believed in a caucasian egypt...how afrocentric)

Marduk can you provide pics of what you believe an avereage ancient egyptian looked like, and a person from egypt that most resembles it? (just curious)

heres the answer to both your valid questions

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
Have you seen the "types of mankind" that was basically the egyptians view on their surrounding peoples, and how they identified themselves?

upload.wikimedia.org...

Where on *earth* did that picture come from? The material is VERY incorrect in relation to the way that the Egyptians actually depicted various races (I've seen the real artifacts, which is why I ask)... and the clothing and hairstyles and jewelry is just... wrong.

Really REALLY wrong.

It looks like something from a book on mysticism rather than drawings from real temple paintings.

For example, Blacks were drawn with curly hair and not the big lips and dredlocks of that ... piece. And only pharoahs wore beards (everyone else was clean-shaven). I could rant for quite awhile about the incredibly bad fake, but I won't.

If you're trying to base assumptions on a book with that very faked illustration in it, I think you should consider ditching the thing as a reference.

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
According to this thread, our arguement was flawed the moment we mentioned race...

www.egyptsearch.com...
Makes sense, as nowadays scientists have debunked of the term "race"

(notice the member who believed in a caucasian egypt...how afrocentric)

Just a note... we prefer to NOT cite other boards in our arguments. This can lead to a "board wars", something that niether we nor the mods of the other boards want.

However, that's correct... the argument based on "race" is spurious since it's a political designation rather than a genetic one.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
Have you seen the "types of mankind" that was basically the egyptians view on their surrounding peoples, and how they identified themselves?

upload.wikimedia.org...

Where on *earth* did that picture come from? The material is VERY incorrect in relation to the way that the Egyptians actually depicted various races (I've seen the real artifacts, which is why I ask)... and the clothing and hairstyles and jewelry is just... wrong.

Really REALLY wrong.

It looks like something from a book on mysticism rather than drawings from real temple paintings.

For example, Blacks were drawn with curly hair and not the big lips and dredlocks of that ... piece. And only pharoahs wore beards (everyone else was clean-shaven). I could rant for quite awhile about the incredibly bad fake, but I won't.

If you're trying to base assumptions on a book with that very faked illustration in it, I think you should consider ditching the thing as a reference.

The original painting was in color and is an egyptian artifact. Since it's no longer on wikipedia i was stuck with using the picture which seems to also be on some book. I'm not using the book as referance at all. Only the illustration, which is not a fake. It is simply an egyptian engraving that was copied onto the book for whatever purpose.

I must emphasize that the engraving exists and is not some fake painting. I believe the original even specified which of the men looked most like the *egyptian*. (which was the far left)

Despite any inaccuracies you may see, keep in mind that this isn't the drawing of a non egyptian.

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
The original painting was in color and is an egyptian artifact...
I must emphasize that the engraving exists and is not some fake painting.

Byrd will come back, in her super-informative way, with links and quotes and what-not, but let me just tell you.

That is not real.

It appears to be based on an actual work of art, which I have seen. It didn't look anything like that, especially the 'black' example. That certainly wasn't in the original.

Despite any inaccuracies you may see, keep in mind that this isn't the drawing of a non egyptian.

now you just got busted



this book is called "types of mankind" it was published in 1854
it was drawn by the very non egyptian and very whote guy Josiah C. Nott (31 March 1804-31 March 1873
the book is a culmination of American School racial thinking
you knew that
yet you tried to use the picture to back your warped assertion
your wrong Nurf
admit it
there is no evidence for a wholly black egypt
there never was
from its inception it was a mixture of what you would call white and black mixed civilisation
and what the rest of us non racist thinkers would call a human civilisation
get over yourself

Since it's no longer on wikipedia

bet your ass ?

heres the wiki page you got it from
en.wikipedia.org...
i am disappointed to say as it turns out that you have been the most blatantly racist person I have ever met on any forum
so blatant that you can't even see it
shame on you

this is actually the original mural from the tomb of seti 1st


From left: four Libyans, Nubian, Syrian and Egyptian
OMG look Nurf
the non black guy is the egyptian
ahahah
from touregypt.net
www.touregypt.net...
lets face it they would know
the article is entitled
The World's First Melting Pot
and says this

How Ancient Egyptians Saw Themselves

Clearly, ancient Egyptians during the dynastic period saw themselves as Egyptians. Their art, and literature pointedly reveals that they showed no identification with either Africa or Asia. In many regards, the symbolism with the modern United States is striking. People who were obviously of foreign origin very often melted into the Egyptian culture, and became high officials as Egyptians, and it was possible for many different racial types to consider themselves Egyptian.

now i think i'm going to recommend to the Mod team that this threa dbe closed
because you are clearly a troll just come here to push your agenda
thats quite clearly the case when the only place on this entire forum you have ever posted is in this thread
thats actually against the code of conduct at this forum


[edit on 13-1-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by Marduk

Despite any inaccuracies you may see, keep in mind that this isn't the drawing of a non egyptian.

now you just got busted



this book is called "types of mankind" it was published in 1854
it was drawn by the very non egyptian and very whote guy Josiah C. Nott (31 March 1804-31 March 1873
the book is a culmination of American School racial thinking
you knew that
yet you tried to use the picture to back your warped assertion
your wrong Nurf
admit it
there is no evidence for a wholly black egypt
there never was
from its inception it was a mixture of what you would call white and black mixed civilisation
and what the rest of us non racist thinkers would call a human civilisation
get over yourself

Since it's no longer on wikipedia

bet your ass ?

heres the wiki page you got it from
en.wikipedia.org...
i am disappointed to say as it turns out that you have been the most blatantly racist person I have ever met on any forum
so blatant that you can't even see it
shame on you

this is actually the original mural from the tomb of seti 1st


From left: four Libyans, Nubian, Syrian and Egyptian
OMG look Nurf
the non black guy is the egyptian
ahahah
from touregypt.net
www.touregypt.net...
lets face it they would know
the article is entitled
The World's First Melting Pot
and says this

How Ancient Egyptians Saw Themselves

Clearly, ancient Egyptians during the dynastic period saw themselves as Egyptians. Their art, and literature pointedly reveals that they showed no identification with either Africa or Asia. In many regards, the symbolism with the modern United States is striking. People who were obviously of foreign origin very often melted into the Egyptian culture, and became high officials as Egyptians, and it was possible for many different racial types to consider themselves Egyptian.

now i think i'm going to recommend to the Mod team that this threa dbe closed
because you are clearly a troll just come here to push your agenda
thats quite clearly the case when the only place on this entire forum you have ever posted is in this thread
thats actually against the code of conduct at this forum


[edit on 13-1-2007 by Marduk]

Interesting...last time i checked there were many people who have that skin color in Africa. What kind of people would you say exhibit that skin tone marduk? A mixture of africa and levantine eh?

I have no "levantine" blood, yet my skin color and facial features look as "egyptian" as that engraving LMAO...



You want this thread closed cause you want the last say in the "arguement"...no need to have it closed. You apparently are also afraid to discuss such matters with people *tons* more knowledgable than me. (i will not specify where)

But your "excuse" would be that it's a forum of afronuts.

I find it pathetic yet unsurprising you turn to beyonce pics and call brown skin "mixed" when you will find a skin tone like that in Africa. (without admixture)

^ get that in your head....you will have both indeginous populations in Africa with both dark and light skin. Failure to grasp that concept makes you unwilling agree with recent scientific discoveries, putting you at a huge disadvantage. Do you still believe the earth is flat?

I was honestly left speechless and amused when you brought it up...she isn't even egyptian. (notice how i said *egyptian* person)

You're becoming a waste of time as you still act as if you haven't even seen the content of my other posts...

keep ignoring them marduk...it says a lot.

your other posts were full of the same racist clap trap
dna studies have proved that the egyptians were a mixture of levant and african yet you prefer the evidence of your highly selective vision
your constant blathering about skin colours proving anything is racist to the extreme
the forum you linked to has tons of afrocentric knowledge but little else
had you really wanted to study egypt seriously you would have joined the hall of maat it has actually won awards (do you actually know what Maat means ?)

but obviously
there your antiquated ideas about black supremacy would be mocked by a sheer weight of evidence to the contrary
so its fairly obvious why you confine yourself to second rate racist forums like the one you posted whioch has since been deleted

and once again
your last post was a personal attack

I have no "levantine" blood, yet my skin color and facial features look as "egyptian" as that engraving LMAO...

which one of your parents is white ?


[edit on 13-1-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf
The original painting was in color and is an egyptian artifact. Since it's no longer on wikipedia i was stuck with using the picture which seems to also be on some book.

I see Marduk beat me to this... it is indeed from the tomb of king Seti I, and it's simply a very bad and incomplete rendition of the original painting (they've left out other figures) :
www.catchpenny.org...

As he said, the drawing is from a book written by Josiah Clark Nott in 1855. The drawings aren't precise and were selected to make Nott's point (which had a rather unpleasant racist slant to it.)

Anyway, bad drawings aside, the Egyptians viewed "race" more as "someone from a particular country who spoke a particular language." During the Cold War, we called the Russians and Chinese "the Reds" though niether people were red skinned. As a country that was the center of the ancient world's farthest ranging trade network, they welcomed people of all kinds and intermarried.

It was the practice of the ancients that when they conquered a country, one or more of the ruler's sons would be sent to Egypt and adopted as a son of the Pharaoh (so the Pharaoh would actually have quite a racial mixture in his children) and raised as Egyptian. When they were completely Egyptianized, they were sent back home to rule the place where they were born.

There's a nice scroll of this in the current Hatshepsut exhibit that is touring museums around the country (it's just leaving the Amon Carter museum in Ft. Worth (my daughter and I went there and geeked out with our book on how to read hieroglyphics).

So, if we can all calm down... the ancients were as they are today -- an openminded, welcoming people who put more value in the quality and family of a person than in the incidental skin, hair, and eye color.

Now... if some of the rest of the world could learn this...

[edit on 14-1-2007 by Byrd]

i suffered through this entire thread wondering if there was a point. though there is some good info on egyptian culture from byrd and a few others, the vast majority of it has to do with views on racism. i wonder to myself why this is in ancient and lost civilizations and not in say the politics section. why does it even matter what color or race they consisted of? i don't see how that affects their achievements and interesting history. sorry, but the OP seems to have started this just to troll.

perhaps i'm wrong and perhaps not, but seriously.....who cares what races ancient egypt consisted of when we can debate serious things about ancient egypt?



optimus

Originally posted by Marduk
your other posts were full of the same racist clap trap
dna studies have proved that the egyptians were a mixture of levant and african yet you prefer the evidence of your highly selective vision
your constant blathering about skin colours proving anything is racist to the extreme
the forum you linked to has tons of afrocentric knowledge but little else
had you really wanted to study egypt seriously you would have joined the hall of maat it has actually won awards (do you actually know what Maat means ?)

but obviously
there your antiquated ideas about black supremacy would be mocked by a sheer weight of evidence to the contrary
so its fairly obvious why you confine yourself to second rate racist forums like the one you posted whioch has since been deleted

and once again
your last post was a personal attack

I have no "levantine" blood, yet my skin color and facial features look as "egyptian" as that engraving LMAO...

which one of your parents is white ?


[edit on 13-1-2007 by Marduk]

Not worth it to continue on the insults so i will simply say that modern egyptologists and archaeologists have well confirmed ancient egypt as originating from africans...not middle easterners....not greeks...

The aforementioned populations had a HUGE influence on ancient egypt in its later times, but was essentially a "black" civilization from the start.

It's totally absurd to think egypt was inhabitated by a homogenous people during the course of its civilization...look at where it's located.

It is also absurd to view egypt as a solely mixed race, when its customs/writing/language were african...

Marduk i think you are confused as to what people and time period i'm reffering to..ancient egypt wasn't a hundred year civilization.

Ironically your argument is absolutely perfect in a modern egyptian sense...

To put it frankly i'm tired of this...the beyonce pic and your obvious ignorance has led me to not take you seriously anymore.

in fact this long time gap of my posting is a result of exactly that...

yikes....
is it possible that they are mixed?.. asian with "negroid" although I don't like that term.. or something else.. honestly what difference does it make? ..

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf

Not worth it to continue on the insults so i will simply say that modern egyptologists and archaeologists have well confirmed ancient egypt as originating from africans...not middle easterners....not greeks...

The aforementioned populations had a HUGE influence on ancient egypt in its later times, but was essentially a "black" civilization from the start.

It's totally absurd to think egypt was inhabitated by a homogenous people during the course of its civilization...look at where it's located.

It is also absurd to view egypt as a solely mixed race, when its customs/writing/language were african...

Marduk i think you are confused as to what people and time period i'm reffering to..ancient egypt wasn't a hundred year civilization.

Ironically your argument is absolutely perfect in a modern egyptian sense...

To put it frankly i'm tired of this...the beyonce pic and your obvious ignorance has led me to not take you seriously anymore.

in fact this long time gap of my posting is a result of exactly that...

Ancient Egyptians were not Black. Nubians (to the south of Egypt) were black and the distinction between the two is shown again and again.

Also there were Nubian rulers in Egypt in the 25th dynasty and they were depicted as black, not the redish colour Egyptians were depicted as.

The writing system is thought to have derived from ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq) and in the early history of Egypt (predynasty) there was much trade between the two civilisations (Eqyptian and Sumerian) with much of the Egyptians customs and beliefs thought to have deriving from Mesopotamia, i.e the Egyptian palace facade, the kings serekh, the tomb buildings, the Egyptian gods, language, pottery etc.

Egpyt was a cosmopolitan society, however much of its ideology was based on ma'at (order) vs chaos. Egyptians were the order and other countries/races were seen as chaos.

There is ongoing debate as to the origins of Egypt, whether they came from Sumeria, Asia or were African in origin as there were many cultures (groups) in the predynastic period. It is my personal belief that 'Egyptians' from the beginning were of mixed race.

Originally posted by Marduk

LMAO...i urge you to post that crap on the forum link i posted. In fact, it's been quite known invasions have had great influence on the LATER dynasties.

you mean that crap which is genuine Egyptian antiquities
well if your forum thinks its crap that show you just how bad your forum is doesnt it
are you afraid to post at the hall of maat ?

what do you mean crap?

Originally posted by lemox

Originally posted by nur23_you55ouf

Not worth it to continue on the insults so i will simply say that modern egyptologists and archaeologists have well confirmed ancient egypt as originating from africans...not middle easterners....not greeks...

The aforementioned populations had a HUGE influence on ancient egypt in its later times, but was essentially a "black" civilization from the start.

It's totally absurd to think egypt was inhabitated by a homogenous people during the course of its civilization...look at where it's located.

It is also absurd to view egypt as a solely mixed race, when its customs/writing/language were african...

Marduk i think you are confused as to what people and time period i'm reffering to..ancient egypt wasn't a hundred year civilization.

Ironically your argument is absolutely perfect in a modern egyptian sense...

To put it frankly i'm tired of this...the beyonce pic and your obvious ignorance has led me to not take you seriously anymore.

in fact this long time gap of my posting is a result of exactly that...

Ancient Egyptians were not Black. Nubians (to the south of Egypt) were black and the distinction between the two is shown again and again.

Also there were Nubian rulers in Egypt in the 25th dynasty and they were depicted as black, not the redish colour Egyptians were depicted as.

The writing system is thought to have derived from ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq) and in the early history of Egypt (predynasty) there was much trade between the two civilisations (Eqyptian and Sumerian) with much of the Egyptians customs and beliefs thought to have deriving from Mesopotamia, i.e the Egyptian palace facade, the kings serekh, the tomb buildings, the Egyptian gods, language, pottery etc.

Egpyt was a cosmopolitan society, however much of its ideology was based on ma'at (order) vs chaos. Egyptians were the order and other countries/races were seen as chaos.

There is ongoing debate as to the origins of Egypt, whether they came from Sumeria, Asia or were African in origin as there were many cultures (groups) in the predynastic period. It is my personal belief that 'Egyptians' from the beginning were of mixed race.

Read the thread thouroughly before jumping in with your assertions...i'm not going to waste my time, and will only tell you that the defenition of "black" is not restricted to flat nosed pitch black individuals...a scientists would probably die in laughter with the still present ignorance of Africans having only one distinct type of feature when it's the most diverse of continents...

Africa = cradle of makind only making it even more logical and valid to suggest Africans having both "caucazoid" features and "mongoloid".

^ As debunked as the terms may be, i'm simply using it as a quick referance to the phenotypical diversity present.

Are the khoisan of south africa mixed? Interesting as they have one the lightest skin in Africa despite absolutely no admixture. (not to mention features that resemble east asians such as their eyes)

Why oppose what is accepted among even egyptologists and archaeologists? Get out of the 20th century.