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Armed Mexican Force overwhelms US Soldiers

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posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:12 AM
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You have voted duckcheney for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


That is probably the most eloquent post I've seen in this thread up to this point. I can think of no other reason myself why these things are happening. I also liked the Chess metaphor, as I'm sure that's what they're up to, whoever they may be. It's just sad that we're being played for idiots, when we're not. Well, most of us aren't anyway.

Thank you for that post. We don't see many of them around here, and it fosters thought and conversation. That, right there, is the hallmark of a WATS vote from me.

Well done,

TheBorg




posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican

[1) The issue of Atzlan, and so many Mexicans wanting to reclaim the southwest. Great. So now give them military grade weapons and training to help them achieve this?]

Nothing cheeses me off worse than the corporate controlled news media myth of the Aztlan Empire. Here's a historical reality check: The govt of Mexico is still trying to subdue indigenous American natives till this day. The Empire of the Aztecs controlled an area no further north than San Luis Potisi which is at least 500 miles south of the Rio Grande River. Ferocious tribes like the Comanches, Lipan, Mescaleros and others were the rulers of the American Southwest. The Spanish colonial govt. threw up a few out posts like Santa Fe and San Antonio but didn't control any territory more than 10 minutes on fast horseback ride from their presidios. I'm a Tejano with Native American blood on both sides of my family and it really ticks me off to hear these fairy tales being spread to sow fear amongst non-Latinos. It's revisionist history at very worst.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by crgintx
I'm a Tejano with Native American blood on both sides of my family and it really ticks me off to hear these fairy tales being spread to sow fear amongst non-Latinos. It's revisionist history at very worst.


it's definitely revisionist history, but it's not the media who is responsible....it's those latinos who believe in the fairy tale. this crap is coming from the latino side, not being fed to it. i had family at san jacinto, and i grew up on stories of the texas revolution (and have always enjoyed reading about all frontier life). it wasnt a whites only club. a very large number of latinos fought for the independence of texas..and later fought with the americans during the mexican-american war in the hopes of gaining freedom for other mexican territories. a good many of them had their land stolen from them for the effort, but many more still own the land that their ancestors held generations ago.

revisionist history? yes. but it's your own people telling the lies amigo.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by duckcheney
This comment is late to the thread but for those who will read this look deep within and think about my message.

It seems to me that there is a live game of chess being played here. Moves are being made not for what they are now but for what may result of those moves several steps ahead in the future.
:
Why then would we have unarmed National Guard troops patroling our border given the situation as it is with an invasion of illegal aliens and drug smugglers each night? (We really should get back to using the term illegal alien I think, that is what they are.) Political correctness is not the answer, and I don't really believe they care about the rights of the illegals either (they do appear to have more rights than we do but that is only because the powers that be can fleece them for more money than they can from us.) No, I think the answer is that the people in Washington want something and hope that unarmed troops on the border will make a contribution to drive our opinion in that direction.

What they want is to be able to use armed soldiers on U.S. soil. They are already destroying the posse comitatus act and this is a move to help justify it in the hearts and minds.

The question that you raise regarding unarmed NG is still unanswered. It makes no sense at all.

But I have to disagree with other parts of your post.

First of all, you say that we are being pre-conditioned to accept armed soldiers on US soil. But remember, it is the duty of the military to secure our borders. Indeed, the National Guard and US Coast Guard are excluded from the posse comitatus act. And the other branches of the military can be brought in as necessary by an act of Congress.

Ask yourself: if we were being attacked by foreign fighter jets, or if hijackers were bent on creating another 9/11, who would be authorized to intercept them if not our military? What if the Mexican Army decided to mount a ground invasion of southern Arizona?

I don't see where the posse comitatus act is being dismantled. Katrina is not a valid example, in case anyone brings it up.

I will give you this, however: it is puzzling why we put a hobbled National Guard on the border. It makes no sense.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by crgintx
I'm a Tejano with Native American blood on both sides of my family and it really ticks me off to hear these fairy tales being spread to sow fear amongst non-Latinos. It's revisionist history at very worst.


it's definitely revisionist history, but it's not the media who is responsible....it's those latinos who believe in the fairy tale. this crap is coming from the latino side, not being fed to it. i had family at san jacinto, and i grew up on stories of the texas revolution (and have always enjoyed reading about all frontier life). it wasnt a whites only club. a very large number of latinos fought for the independence of texas..and later fought with the americans during the mexican-american war in the hopes of gaining freedom for other mexican territories. a good many of them had their land stolen from them for the effort, but many more still own the land that their ancestors held generations ago.

revisionist history? yes. but it's your own people telling the lies amigo.

Mr. Snafu, I'm an American, then a Texan then a Tejano. My native American side was here when whatever European ethnic group you happen to be from got off the boat. My people have been US citizens hence Americans since the US annexes Texas in 1846. The same corporate controlled media that controls the media in the US controls the media in Mexico and pretty much every other country that has a "free press". The lies are being told by the power elites to create dissension between the groups of basically working class people. Major multinational corporations wrecked Mexico's fragile economy in less than the 8 years since the approval of the NAFTA Treaty and they're doing the same to the US. Do you really believe that 12 million Mexicans want to have to work away from their families and homes in a foreign country to support them at a decent level? They're doing most of the menial jobs in the US because as bad as it is at the bottom in the US, it's better than starving in their home lands in an economy stifled by a 16th century economic system which the same multinational corps are more than glad to maintain as a pool of cheap service labor. These same corps have shut down factories that paid Mexicans a decent living wage in Mexico and moved those jobs to China and India. Thinks manufacturing has taken a hit in the US, you should see what happened to it in Mexico. But there's no middle class in Mexico to support a service economy like in the US, so we have 12 million Mexicans working for unscrupulous businessmen here in the US who'll hire them. That's the real history that's happening now. Like I wrote earlier, if you the Covert News Network, the GE News channel or The Ruppert Murdoch News Channel all you hearing and seeing is corporate marketing and propaganda and if you believe them, you getting what you deserve.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:20 PM
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I will give you this, however: it is puzzling why we put a hobbled National Guard on the border. It makes no sense.


Because combat infantry generally make a poor police force (see Iraq).

Soldiers and cops are trained differently, cops are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary to subdue a lawbreaker, soldiers are trained to use overwhelming force to defeat an enemy.

Imagine the uproar if an NG rifle team, perhaps thinking they are under attack, perforates the hell out a bunch of unarmed illegals.

Nobody wants a piece of that political nightmare.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex

Nobody wants a piece of that political nightmare.


Funny how there is not much of uproar when the mafioso's drug mules come across the border with kilos of coc aine that ends up in elementary schools as crack, which then can fry the brains of thousands of kids.

I think we lost our sense of what constitutes a major threat.





[edit on 19-1-2007 by Regenmacher]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex
Because combat infantry generally make a poor police force (see Iraq).

Soldiers and cops are trained differently, cops are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary to subdue a lawbreaker, soldiers are trained to use overwhelming force to defeat an enemy.

Force is sometimes necessary to defend borders. The OP bears that out.


Imagine the uproar if an NG rifle team, perhaps thinking they are under attack, perforates the hell out a bunch of unarmed illegals.

Nobody wants a piece of that political nightmare.

Agreed, it would be a nightmare. And I wouldn't put it past drug smugglers to set up this scenario. The problem is, currently it's not much more than catch-and-release.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher
Funny how there is not much of uproar when the mafiaso's drug mules come across the border with kilos of coc aine that ends up in elementary schools as crack, which then fries the brains of thousands of kids.

I think we lost our sense of what constitutes a major threat.

Well, two Border Patrols just started serving a combined 23 year prison sentence for shooting a fleeing drug smuggler in the ass. And the smuggler has been subsequently caught doing what he does best - smuggling drugs.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by crgintx

Mr. Snafu, I'm an American, then a Texan then a Tejano. My native American side was here when whatever European ethnic group you happen to be from got off the boat.


everyone seems to be making too many assumptions lately....my cherokee side was here as well. i do, however, like how you phrased your self-classification: american first, everything else second. that's how we used to think of ourselves, but unfortunately the majority of americans have some kind of a descriptor in front of them today: african-american, irish-american, jewish-american. that, is the main trouble with this country today.

but back to the subject at hand....while i dont necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, i still strongly believe that the main reason latinos believe the propaganda is that their own people are feeding it to them. you know as well as i do that latinos arent going to listen to some blonde haired blue eyed bimbo on cnn tell them about their history....but they are going to listen to some aztlan nut's lies on "aqui y ahora."



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

Well, two Border Patrols just started serving a combined 23 year prison sentence for shooting a fleeing drug smuggler in the ass. And the smuggler has been subsequently caught doing what he does best - smuggling drugs.


Yeah I read that the other day....nuts. Some Arizona legislators have also been trying to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's program to arrest illegals. Makes me wonder what the hell is going on when criminals get a free pass, and they lock up or tell officers to not enforce the law. You'd think the plan was to create more chaos and crime.

Deputies may start arresting migrants AZ Republic



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:48 PM
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Former Republican Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney signed a bill giving state troopers the authority to arrest illegal immigrants. One of the first things the incoming Demcoratic governor, Deval Patrick, did was to rescind that order.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 04:36 AM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by jsobecky


Yeah I read that the other day....nuts. Some Arizona legislators have also been trying to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's program to arrest illegals. Makes me wonder what the hell is going on when criminals get a free pass, and they lock up or tell officers to not enforce the law. You'd think the plan was to create more chaos and crime.

Deputies may start arresting migrants AZ Republic


You've obviously never lived in Maricopa County, Arizona and had to deal with Sheriff Joke the total Media Whore. He and his deputies have routinely violated the civil rights of Americans who look or dress in a manner that he doesn't approve of. Just before every election, he decides that he's going to do prostitution stings and drug sweeps when the majority of drug being sold aren't in poor neighborhoods but in his hometown of upscale Scottsdale,AZ.

He currently has racked up $1.3 billion(2004 figure) in compensatory damage lawsuit against his administration since taking office in 1992. His practices have cost the Az. taxpayers hundreds of millions in damages already paid out. He's been sued successfully by his own deputies for violating federal labor laws.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 05:05 AM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by jsobecky

Well, two Border Patrols just started serving a combined 23 year prison sentence for shooting a fleeing drug smuggler in the ass. And the smuggler has been subsequently caught doing what he does best - smuggling drugs.


Yeah I read that the other day....nuts. Some Arizona legislators have also been trying to stop Sheriff Joe Arpaio's program to arrest illegals. Makes me wonder what the hell is going on when criminals get a free pass, and they lock up or tell officers to not enforce the law. You'd think the plan was to create more chaos and crime.

Deputies may start arresting migrants AZ Republic


[edit on 20-1-2007 by crgintx]

[edit on 20-1-2007 by crgintx]



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 05:25 AM
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The real question is when is he going to arrest on charges of human trafficking those Americans who employ the illegal aliens. If nobody would hire them, they would go somewhere else because 99% are just hardworking people trying to better their living condition. As far as drug smuggling is the concern until we Americans reduce the demand for drugs, it will go on unabated just like the alcohol did during the Prohibition Era. Until the American public comes to it senses and realizes that drug abuse and addiction is a public health problem and not a social disorder, we'll just keep digging a deeper hole. The true economic solution for the illegal drug trade is decriminalization and treatment of abusers. Yeah, it's sounds touchy-feely but the 30+ year macho sounding war on drugs hasn't reduced demand one bit and has made billions of dollars for the drug cartels and their lawyers and bankers. The toll in human misery is incalculable.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 07:46 AM
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well i still think its ludicrous to even have soldiers on the border unless they are allowed to BE soldiers. i remember a few times i had to "pull guard duty" and you know what they armed me with? a friggin axe handle. wtf was i going to do with an axe handle if someone had made it far enough onto post to even get to the ammo dump i was guarding? i imagine these guys feel the same way. honestly wouldnt suprise me if a lot of them had stopped at walmart before going out at night and picked up thier own boxes of .223. cant say i wouldnt. im not a trigger happy guy, rather the opposite, but i was trained really well at target discrimination and its not too hard to tell, even at night (nvg's rock) if the person you are stopping is armed. (you ideally want to challenge them from a position of cover anyway) so only shoot if you are in danger. i know a commander for a national guard drug task force team taht simply wil NOT send his guys out unarmed. usually just 9mm's but their whole job is to gather intel on meth labs etc for local authorities. no contact whatsoever. but the LTC refused to send his guys out when the state offices told him they couldnt go armed. needless to say i came to really appreciate his attitude towards his people when he became my commander for our WMD team.

but this whole issue makes me think of something else. the gas station i used to live by did western union. you wouldnt believe how much money was being sent to mexico daily. why not just tax the hell out of non domestic wire transfers?
hell would end up being a proxy income tax of a sort. yes, i know there are times when someone is sending money to a relative overseas who lost their wallet, but thats why you coordinate those with the local consulate. make them guys do something other than spying for a change. overseas and in trouble? call the consulate and get the tax waived. no problem. but right now u can send a lot of money overseas for not a lot in comparison, change taht and i bet you see a change in things.



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by crgintx
The real question is when is he going to arrest on charges of human trafficking those Americans who employ the illegal aliens.

As far as drug smuggling is the concern until we Americans reduce the demand for drugs, it will go on unabated just like the alcohol did during the Prohibition Era.


I am not aware of a law that allows the local police to arrest employers. Which one is that? Smuggling illegal drugs into the US is still a felony, so your either enforce the existing laws or change those laws.
_______________________

More recent info:

Details emerge of border incident
Six to eight men wearing bulletproof vests and carrying automatic weapons approached four National Guard soldiers manning an observation post on the border southwest of Tucson on Jan. 3, according to new reports by the National Guard Bureau and U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


- 4 Guardsmen were surrounded during face-off with armed men
- Summary: Armed man came within 10 meters of Guard troops
- General: Guardsmen did not flee



[edit on 20-1-2007 by Regenmacher]



posted on Jan, 20 2007 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by crgintx



I am not aware of a law that allows the local police to arrest employers. Which one is that? Smuggling illegal drugs into the US is still a felony, so your either enforce the existing laws or change those laws.
_______________________

More recent info:

Details emerge of border incident
Six to eight men wearing bulletproof vests and carrying automatic weapons approached four National Guard soldiers manning an observation post on the border southwest of Tucson on Jan. 3, according to new reports by the National Guard Bureau and U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


- 4 Guardsmen were surrounded during face-off with armed men
- Summary: Armed man came within 10 meters of Guard troops
- General: Guardsmen did not flee




[edit on 20-1-2007 by Regenmacher]


RM, my point was that local employers are just as guilty of the crime of human trafficking as the illegal immigrant and the coyote who smuggle them. IMHO there's no way you can exclude them ethically or morally from the human trafficking trade. If there's no jobs for the illegal immigrants then they'll look for some other way to support themselves.

The Border Patrol busts more dope than any other law enforcement agency: local, state and federal. The 2 Border Patrol agents who have been falsely convicted and imprisoned by their former masters at the DOJ are the latest victims between in a long, on going turf war between the Border Patrol and the DEA. The Drug Enforcement Administration is basically a waste of taxpayer money when many local, state and other Federal law enforcement agencies are clearly doing a better job of enforcing the nation's drug laws. The Border Patrol is now a separate law enforcement agency under the Dept of Homeland Security. The Border Patrol is near and dear to my family. One of my Dad's close cousins was killed while on duty back in the 60's. The Border Patrol has never been a flashy service and instead of getting a much needed budget increase in the '70's to better serve our nation, the Nixon administration and Congress created the DEA whose has made less than 1% percent of the drug seizures in the US in the last 2 years. Most of those seizures were for simple possession of marijuana.

I've digressed from the subject. Many of the lower ranking Border Patrol Agents are extremely frustrated with the situation right now. They're being told NOT TO BUST both illegal immigrants and drug smugglers. The Bush Administration(and the GOP) is trying to court the Latino vote, so they're being soft on immigration enforcement and have been promising immigration reform even though many American born Hispanics and legal immigrants aren't in favor of amnesty. Until we get a change of administration, meaningful immigration reform and true enforcement(punish the employers), these problems will not get better.



posted on Feb, 7 2007 @ 07:47 PM
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www.military.com...

this is an old thread now but i thought this would be an interesting way to add to the discussion.

all i can say is its about time they are reviewing it.




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