Christianity and Change

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Why should you? Everybody is free, free, free and more free to die and be bound in hell. What's the need in placing punishments if your walking in eternal death from the start?

So believing that evolution is a valid explanation of the origin of species leads to hell. I don't remember that bit in the bible

No you won't, you'd have watched it already. You couldn't slap satan out of you long enough take to heart what the man has to say. If you'd have posted a link, I'd have watched it already.

It seems your god gave you the ability to read minds as well....not.

I was waiting for you to come back and say "yes, that sounds like a good idea, I give you an almost hour long video to watch and I watch something that you think would be good for me to watch".

However, you'd rather just claim I have satan in my heart.

I don't just listen and take something to heart, the emotions are not a way to assess someones arguments, we have a rational mind, the large prefrontal cortex, to assess the validity of arguments - that is the neural area that distinguishes us from other apes.

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

you know, as much as i like debating evolution, i'd really like to see this thread get back on topic

Originally posted by queenannie38
Excellent point. And the choice as to whether to investigate pro-belief or con- is a personal one. I truly believe that any sincere investigation which truly wants to find out what is not known will have fruitful results. Unfortunately most people approach with an attachment to their pro or con choice - and they look to find reason instead of an answer to a question asked within themselves.

Hey Annie,

I think the big issue is that certain people will just claim absolute status of their personal belief. This is the good thing about science, all is tentative, all is open to change with proper evidence, all theories do have evidence that it is valid.

What people decide to fill the holes in knowledge with is really their own personal choice, the problem is when evidence and belief clashes. Then we see a struggle, in wider society and within people. Every time, the evidence will eventually speak for itself - it's happened time and again over history.

I think those that ignore the evidence and claim their beliefs as absolute actually cause problems for some people of faith. It's not hard for a decently educated youngun to see that biblical inerrancy is not a good position, that real-world evidence will trump their faith everytime.

Better to accept doubt and uncertainty than to, in essence, start to look a bit silly. I think Augustine said a similar thing.

I see many of the more 'absolutionists' pile on you for what they see as a threat to their own position. Keep it up

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you know, as much as i like debating evolution, i'd really like to see this thread get back on topic

Well, a good thing to do this would be to ask why wisesheep thinks Gene Scott is worthy of praise.

He had no issues with homosexuality, abortion etc, seeing them as personal issues. However, he was pretty hot on the topic on tithing.

"I don't ask you to change when you come here," he told the congregation, according to a 1994 Los Angeles Times article. "I take you as you are, as God takes me as I am."

So, he seems to agree that christianity requires no change.

Originally posted by melatonin
So believing that evolution is a valid explanation of the origin of species leads to hell. I don't remember that bit in the bible.

What you will remember is that denying the creator will. Denying the truth will. That is if you've taken a verse of it to heart, seeing as how you flee from the truth and divert to useless arguments, you haven't.

Originally posted by melatonin
It seems your god gave you the ability to read minds as well....not.

He gave the ability to discern. In this case, it doesn't take a whole lot.

This whole thing is pointless. You won't see.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
What you will remember is that denying the creator will. Denying the truth will. That is if you've taken a verse of it to heart, seeing as how you flee from the truth and divert to useless arguments, you haven't.

That is your truth, I have mine.

You asked me to watch a video, I promised I would, I suggested that maybe you could watch a Ken Miller one in response, then you go into a rant about me having satan in my heart. Way to make friends and influence people.

He gave the ability to discern. In this case, it doesn't take a whole lot.

This whole thing is pointless. You won't see.

How do you know my intentions? I could have listened to it already, I could have seen how he spends a lot of time attacking buddhism and relying on claims that as jesus said he was divine, and no-one else claimed this, he must be divine, cos' he said so.

You need to remove the hubris - your evangelising needs a bit of work, do they have lessons for that?

[apologies to madness, I tried, I tried...]

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
That is your truth, I have mine.

Ahh, my truth, and your truth, and everybodies truth. It would amaze you to do a profile on the population of the earth at this point in time, and find how generic a comment that is. Really it's rather shocking. There is only one truth, not two, and not varying degrees of it. There's truth and lie, no middle ground.

Originally posted by melatonin
You asked me to watch a video, I promised I would, I suggested that maybe you could watch a Ken Miller one in response, then you go into a rant about me having satan in my heart. Way to make friends and influence people.

I just stated the obvious, no rant. I'd a whole lot rather offend you and run you away from me pissed, and see you in heaven in the long run, than keep you all warm and fuzzy and have you roast for eternity. It takes more love to do what I'm doing than to keep you happy.

Originally posted by melatonin
I could have listened to it already, I could have seen how he spends a lot of time attacking buddhism and relying on claims that as jesus said he was divine, and no-one else claimed this, he must be divine, cos' he said so.

Yea you could have listened to enough of it to get your demons grumpy and shut it off too.

Originally posted by melatonin
your evangelising needs a bit of work, do they have lessons for that?

I'm always in need of work. My teacher keeps me in line. How can one be on the potter's wheel and not need a bit of work. Tis only after the kiln when it is finished.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
Ahh, my truth, and your truth, and everybodies truth. It would amaze you to do a profile on the population of the earth at this point in time, and find how generic a comment that is. Really it's rather shocking. There is only one truth, not two, and not varying degrees of it. There's truth and lie, no middle ground.

Yeah, there probably is one complete truth. However, you don't have it, you just think you do. I wouldn't claim such a thing, I have elements of truth and lots of grey areas of ignorance. I embrace it and attempt to remove the shroud of ignorance.

I just stated the obvious, no rant. I'd a whole lot rather offend you and run you away from me pissed, and see you in heaven in the long run, than keep you all warm and fuzzy and have you roast for eternity. It takes more love to do what I'm doing than to keep you happy.

No, you just looked silly in my eyes. I had every intention on watching it.

Yea you could have listened to enough of it to get your demons grumpy and shut it off too.

Nah, I'm actually up to about 16 minutes, he just using his buddhism is nonsense schtick. You see, some people have busy lives, but when I say I will do something, I will do it.

cheers.

Originally posted by melatonin
Nah, I'm actually up to about 16 minutes....

Thank you. Now I ask myself, why am I thanking you for doing something for your own good. Oh well.

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Thank you. Now I ask myself, why am I thanking you for doing something for your own good. Oh well.

Well, I understand from your POV it may be.

I've almost finished it. Scott seems to play the Jesus is lair/fraud card or it must be true, that because impossible claims are attributed to him, that this enhances the validity of the story. He seems to focus on the resurrection adding to the validity.

I'll raise this in the myth thread when I've finished it.

Anyway, here's a Ken Miller talk on intelligent design creationism, it's 2 hours long but the last hour is mostly audience questions, but he gives a good seminar and your soul won't be thrown into a firey pit if you question his position.

video.google.co.uk...

[edit on 21-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you know, as much as i like debating evolution, i'd really like to see this thread get back on topic

Well, a good thing to do this would be to ask why wisesheep thinks Gene Scott is worthy of praise.

He had no issues with homosexuality, abortion etc, seeing them as personal issues. However, he was pretty hot on the topic on tithing.

"I don't ask you to change when you come here," he told the congregation, according to a 1994 Los Angeles Times article. "I take you as you are, as God takes me as I am."

So, he seems to agree that christianity requires no change.

So in an attempt to get this thread back onto the highway...

Gene Scott agrees that christianity requires no change.

Originally posted by melatonin
.. your soul won't be thrown into a firey pit if you question his position.

Our souls are destined for the place from birth. There is only one way to escape it and their is NO OTHER WAY. It's too simple.

Not about questioning someones position. It's about knowing who made you and can put you wherever he pleases to put you FOREVER.

Originally posted by melatonin
Gene Scott agrees that christianity requires no change.

You can't change yourself, you are what you are. When the Father singles you out of the heard and leads you to his son. Then you will start to change. If you don't display these signs, your a counterfeit. I can't even explain some of it, but it's just a "knowing".

Originally posted by WiseSheep
You can't change yourself, you are what you are.

that's inherently contradictory
what you are changes constantly
students become teachers
novices become adepts
the innocent become the guilty
the judged become judgemental
polar shifts like that happen all the time
what i am today is not what i was ten years ago
it's not what i was 10 months ago
it's hardly what i was 10 hours ago

When the Father singles you out of the heard and leads you to his son. Then you will start to change. If you don't display these signs, your a counterfeit. I can't even explain some of it, but it's just a "knowing".

well, that's a purely personal theological view
can't argue with someone's personal beliefs in this case
many different people have different views on religious salvation

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
that's inherently contradictory
what you are changes constantly
students become teachers
novices become adepts
the innocent become the guilty
the judged become judgemental
polar shifts like that happen all the time
what i am today is not what i was ten years ago
it's not what i was 10 months ago
it's hardly what i was 10 hours ago

Nope. Sin is sin. No varying degrees. One of us is just as nasty as the other in the eyes of the Father. We have broken every single one of his laws individually and are guilty. When we accept his sacrifice of his son, then we're covered, but not licensed to continue in lawlessness as some would have you to believe. If you can't see your guilt, then the previous is useless at this point, but may be a seed waiting to germinate.

The change I was referring to isn't in the flesh. It's a change that only the Father can set in motion. That very motion may be you here in this thread. There's a reason for you being here and it isn't just to consume oxygen and become fertilizer.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, that's a purely personal theological view
can't argue with someone's personal beliefs in this case

It isn't only my personal knowing. He said so (John 10:29-30).

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
many different people have different views on religious salvation

True but there is only one way.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
It isn't only my personal knowing. He said so (John 10:29-30).

again, you cite a book, but it's still a personal belief
i cannot attack something that you claim is knowing because your knowing has no evidence backing it aside from opinion

True but there is only one way.

hence my distaste for organized religion
exclusivist salvation messages
they eventually lead to war
but, i digress to much

honestly, i found the biggest positive change in my life when i dropped the shackles of religion and embraced the instinct of atheism that we are all born with

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
honestly, i found the biggest positive change in my life when i dropped the shackles of religion and embraced the instinct of atheism that we are all born with

Actually, madness, I agree with all that you say except the last part - only because I can honestly say I wasn't born with an atheistic instinct. In fact, I was born with exactly the opposite instinct - but yet I do realize it is far more rare to have, based on observation and experience. At any rate, I feel about religion the same as you - if forced to follow any one or not be allowed to have my own personal interest in God would be equally stifling to me.

I think the biggest problem with wars is the same problem that trips up most theologists in the very first book of the bible: free will. Defined simply as 'the opportunity to choose' within any larger framework - if it worked in the Garden of Eden then by all intents and purposes it should be applied on a larger scale. But religion (and politics to a lesser degree) wants it both ways, to their advantage without the accountability; and that's why we have wars and that's also why we have religious intolerance.

People (in general) want to choose for themselves and then choose for everyone else, too.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Actually, madness, I agree with all that you say except the last part - only because I can honestly say I wasn't born with an atheistic instinct. In fact, I was born with exactly the opposite instinct - but yet I do realize it is far more rare to have, based on observation and experience.

annie, everyone is born an atheist
whether they like it or not
a baby has no idea of god or spirituality
people are taught those things, typically from an early age to ensure that the indoctrination sticks

Actually, we are all probably born more agnostic--not knowing or not having our minds made up. Silly, how can we actively not believe in something if we don't even know it possibly exists?

Originally posted by NowAmFound
Actually, we are all probably born more agnostic--not knowing or not having our minds made up. Silly, how can we actively not believe in something if we don't even know it possibly exists?

when you're born you don't believe in anything
that would include any relgious precepts, any scientific precepts, and any cultural precepts
agnosticism is making a conscious decision to not make a decision