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Prodestant vs. Catholic + exclusivity of salvation

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posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 06:11 PM
First to say that I dont know much about the details of the theology behind the two branches of christianity.

I was just wondering, do catholics and prodestants consider each other irreconcilable to God? What I mean is do prodestants consider catholics will go to hell for their beliefs, and vice versa. If they both consider that entirely different paths need to be followed for salvation then we probably shouldn't refer to them as one group so casually.

This brings me onto a wider question. What do religious people think about the plurality of religions and the exclusivity of the path to salvation?

Do most believe that only those who follow their doctrine wil live eternally with god and the rest will be cast into some non/bad plane of existence? (Lets just call it heaven and hell for ease of writing)

In my opinion, such exclusivity betrays ignorance. To suggest that most of humans born today and throughout most of time will be sent to hell for not being of the same faith seems naieve. It seems especially naieve when you consider the geographical and familial distribution of religions. There arent many christians in tribal papua new guniea, or pre colonial america for example.

This 'heavenism' also, in my opinion, shows a lack of faith in God's plan. Would he allow so many people to be so easily duped by culture and upbringing into honestly and wholeheartedly believing the wrong thing, and through no fault of their own guaranteeing themselves an eternity in hell? Surely we cant all be expected to be scholars of world theology?

Finally, and most importantly, it gives me the worrying feeling that those who believe that I will not go to heaven for not sharing their beliefs, see me as good as dead once they realise they will not sway me to their side. If I will only be in their existence for this brief lifetime and they will spend an eternity away from them then why should they be interested in me as a human being? Why should it matter to them whether my life lasts another day or a hundred years? In eternity it is the blink of an eye.

For example, lets say only orthodox christian prodestants get to heaven and everybody else goes downstairs. Heaven will be overwhelmingly european, and certain families will be there in full compliment while entire races from the planets history will not be included. There will be nobody there from before the birth of Jesus. What is paradise if it is missing some of the people you love the most?

I can't subscribe to such a view, and I feel it is a dangerous one to hold.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 06:56 PM
I am a traditional Catholic which means (universal church), and I do believe that all outside of her will not make it to heaven from the fact that Christ said.

" Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have not life in you "

Through this sacrament God has literally taught me what humility because he truly enters your soul and removes all (I) and fills it with him, and then you start to know yourselves, its unexplainable.

But, that in no way means that im saved, God wants you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

One catholic saint who vowed to never waste a minute, at death bed was asked I think what he is fearful of, and the saint said.

" I am about to appear before the throne of God, and shall I not fear "

Padre Pio, a stigmatist, thought he would barely make it to purgatory, yet he seen visions of Christ and Mary.

Many passages say that nobody is saved until they are in heaven, and that their works through faith have granted them heaven.

I feel the same, I feel that I too am farther from God than everybody on earth. Once you recieve communion he removes all pride and self importance and you cant run on it anymore but only grace.

And if he doesnt grant you grace you cant run.

Protestantism was a falling away from the Catholic church in the 1500s, many years after christs death, and this falling away has created 3,000 or more different denominations that are not even in communion with each other, they all believe different things.

Yet the catholic church, the latin, eastern ritres, all believe in the same thing.

This is because the interpretation of scripture has led protestants to division and destruction, and its why over 3000 churches are all divided against each other.

This is why I believe God set up a Catholic church to interpret scripture guided by the holy spirit, it only seems logical, and hats why the catholic church is not divided against itself in doctrine.

As for loved ones, this is why we pray for loved ones to not go into hell, and God will not let any souls into hell who are truly seeking and knocking and letting him in.

God justice will not aloow it, so he will lead souls to his church and his truth, I truly believe, he has done it with me and I used to be protestant minded and not Catholic.


posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 07:15 PM
I don't think entrance to Heaven is predicated on being Protestant or Catholic. I think God is smart enough to know that humans can't agree on anything and as such, there are many different churches. We might disagree on some details here and there, but overall, the message is the same.

PS. I'm Protestant and we have Communion too.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 07:18 PM
Thanks for the response. Excuse me if I appear antagonistic but I am trying to get my head around this topic.

God justice will not aloow it, so he will lead souls to his church and his truth, I truly believe

And for those who have never heard the catholic theology? Will they get a chance to study it after death? And the babies who died too young to even know about it? And those born before Christ? Those born in oppressive countries where they are too fearful to take on any religion other than the state-sanctioned one?

You honestly believe that if you make it to heaven only pious Catholics will be there? Will this not make it a very uniform and empty place?

Is there not a contradiction in your post in that on the one hand you quote Christ saying there will be justice only for those who take the sacrament, and on the other hand that you do not believe God's justice will allow your loved ones to go to hell?

Personally I believe that there are as many righteous paths as there are human beings, and each man will be individually judged on laws that we cannot understand while on this earth. I personally see existence as a creation of God's in which for things like love, beauty, music and so on to exist it is also necessary to have filth, death, sadness. The whole world is a stage, and someone must play the baddy or the heroes part will not make any sense. I believe these things will make sense after we take our bows and leave the stage, when we will be allowed to understand the full script.

On a final note, I was wondering if I was correct in my notion that a Catholic is required by faith to atone for sins by admitting guilt and doing good to right the balance, where a prodestant is merely required to believe in the ressurection for all sins to be forgiven. This sounds like a denial of responsibility, but like I said I am not familiar with the theological details.

I wish you peace, on this plane and the next.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Giordano Bruno
On a final note, I was wondering if I was correct in my notion that a Catholic is required by faith to atone for sins by admitting guilt and doing good to right the balance, where a prodestant is merely required to believe in the ressurection for all sins to be forgiven.

A Protestant has to repent their sins to gain forgiveness. The difference is that the repentance does not have to go through the church. It's a private matter between that person and God.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 07:53 PM
Giordiano, the souls living before Christ were living in a state of limbo, that is they were not admitted into heaven until the sacrafice, these were the souls of the old law.

this is contained in our apostles creed.

Babies have not reached the use of reason and cannot make a profession of faith, and our church teaches that baptism can be valid even in a protestant church, I have to recheck this.

I was that soul who never heard of Christ and God has led me to this church through literal miracles I cant explain. He would do the same for everybody who (searches)

Hes just.

I believe he created one holy church which he said he did, that existed 1500 years before the protestant reformation occured before which everybody was Catholic and you had saints like st vincent Ferrer who raised over 50 people from the dead.

Duzey, I know you have communion, but you dont believe its truly the body blood soul and divinity of Christ.

Several church have communion, but they dont be;lieve in the real presence. Protestants are divided against themselves, and the ones who do recieve communion which is just bread to them are of a church that was formed from a denial of the Catholic faith 1500 years after Christ death.

please go read up on these Eycharistic miracles.

it might have a - between eucharistic, and miracles, if so, just retype it in.

I beg of you to please atleast read it and the miracles which scientists have studied over years.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by JesusisTruth]

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 08:11 PM

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Duzey, I know you have communion, but you dont believe its truly the body blood soul and divinity of Christ.

I know. In my church it is a symbolic rememberance of the Last Supper. Some Protestants even believe that Transubstantiation is idolatry.

What I believe is that if being Catholic makes you a better person then I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed into Heaven along with the rest of us. I'd miss the Catholic side of my family very much if we ended up in different places.

I will take a look at your link.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 08:12 PM
This research is not my own but comes from a recent documentary on UK Channel 4 called 'The secret Family of Jesus'. I found it very compelling and you may wish to obtain it. Not that I'd advocate torrents of copyrighted media.

I recently found out about the Didache, one of the earliest pieces of christian literature. It is an early handbook containing practices teachings and traditions of the first christians. The religion then was still within a jewish framework. It contains no mention of transubstatiation, the resurrection, nor the trinity. Infact it refers to Jesus as 'Servant of God'.

This ancient christianity, which essentialy seems to view Jesus as prophet not lord, was goverened by James and Jude, sons of Mary and Joseph, from the great temple in Jerusalem till its fall in the Great Jewish Revolt of 70AD. This 'Jewish Christianity' was not favored by Constantine who set up the new centre of Christianity in Rome, using the teachings of Peter and Paul, the basis of modern christianity.

The traditions associated with pre-reformation christianity date from this constantine-era interpretation of Christianity.

I do not bring this up in order to attack your faith, rather to highlight that traditions and theologies change over time due to human intervention, and that I would hope divine justice is above that of human fallibility and the shifting sands of politically correct morality.

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 08:19 PM
Heres a copy of the translation of chapter 9, the earliest description of the Eucharist.

Chap. IX.

1. Now as regards the Eucharist (the Thank-offering), give thanks after this manner:

2. First for the cup: "We give thanks to Thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which thou hast made known to us through Jesus, Thy servant: to Thee be the glory for ever."

3. And for the broken bread: "We give thanks to Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou hast made known to us through Jesus, Thy servant: to Thee be the glory for ever.

4. "As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and gathered together became one, so let Thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom, for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."

5. But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, except those baptized into the name of the Lord; for as regards this also the Lord has said: "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."

Note no mention of transubstatiation, but rather the 'thank offering'.

Link to translation of didache

[edit on 4-1-2007 by Giordano Bruno]

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 08:29 PM
Of course you wouldn't advocate theft or attack my faith. That would be downright un-Christian like.

That is interesting information. I am not sure I am hearing what you are trying to say, however. If there is no mention of transubstantiation, why is it believed that it turns to the actual flesh and blood of Christ?

I'm confused and I'm sure I'm missing something here.

Edited to add: I understand my confusion - I mixed the two posters up. Sorry about that.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by Duzey]

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 09:05 PM
A quick search of the site brought up neither the documentary mentionednor the Didache, so I have started a new research thread in the Religious conspiracies section, where this aspect can be discussed more thoroughly, and it will let us keep this forum on topic.

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