Bush approves warrantless opening of mail (Wake up you acolyte sheep)

Good, I'm glad. Near-sighted fools are getting just what they deserve.

Stick your hand in a sausage grinder and turn the crank - see what happens? Consequence, pure and simple. The state of our nation is not a matter of fortune, fate, or divine judgement, it's a matter of consequence.

America will stand or fall on the decisions, the merits, the strength of individuals, because tyrants are impotent without their legions of self-interested supporters. For every self-ordained master of the universe, behind the scenes, pulling strings in a lofty office, there are thousands of individuals out front, making it happen with their own labors, cops, lawyers, truck drivers, bodyguards, soldiers, analysts, bankers, etc..

If we have allowed this, as we have allowed so many other travesties, then we deserve slavery, we deserve ignorance, and we deserve death.

Believe this - if we ever deserve liberty and justice, we will have it.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
If we have allowed this, as we have allowed so many other travesties, then we deserve slavery, we deserve ignorance, and we deserve death.

Believe this - if we ever deserve liberty and justice, we will have it.

so, what is a dissident supposed to do? this kind of collectivism gets me, because this BS affects the entire world not just UKUSAUSNZ, if you tried to warn them all along, you might just be p++++ed at a large number of people, am i right?

anyways, thanx alot, servile sheeple, you owe us a new planet.

Originally posted by brill
So you've never gone 61 in a 60 zone ?

Sure.

Never taped a show,

Sure I have. So what? They aren't watching to see what I watch on TV and even if they were .. so what? Watching TV isn't illegal and what is on TV is there for anyone to see. If they want to know what I watch .. I'll tell them. (Top Chef ... Project Runway ... Reruns of comfort TV like 'That 70s Show). Told ya' I'm dull.

downloaded song,

Nope. Wouldn't know how. Even if I did, so what? If they want to know what I listen to, I'd tell them. (Creed, Nickelback, Coldplay, Evenscience ... )

I'm shocked that you would say chipping a person upsets you. These measures are a precursor to exactly that step.

Chipping invades my body. The others? I don't care about. But you may be right that these are a precursor to chipping .. but only time will tell. I think chipping is an entirely new area, but you may be right that they are slowly turning the heat up ... bit by bit .. so we don't notice when the heat comes up to full boil.

Well, the Postal Inspectors have been the largest US law enforcement agency for a long time, suppose they're going to get bigger? Like one poster mentioned, back when I relied on snail mail a great many of my mails/packages arrived already opened and hastily re-sealed (if they even bothered!) I've opted to get my credit card and bank statements electronically, so the only thing arriving in my mail box regularly are my utility bills (but they're on a post-card like thing, so anyone can read it anyway) and magazines and junk mail(again, and it's not like I subscribe to Terrorists Quarterly.)

I guess I'm just curious what they expect to find in snail mail, letters that aren't bulk-postage (e.g. commercial) are extremely rare outside of holiday/birthday cards, at least for me. Also, how can I help it if some nutcase sends me contraband, criminal plots, etc... and would someone conspiring to do such leave their legitimate return address?

I'm puzzled by the announcement and now the outrage, I mean many of us have already known this has been going on since before Bush, since way before us or our great-grandparents were even born - since the very creation of the Postal Inspection service - if you're wanted for something or under-surveillance this just seems like a given.

No doubt this invasion of postal privacy will creep across the ocean to the uk soon. Blair is so far up Dubyas butt he could floss his teeth! "Land of the free?" My a***!

This (Bush's assault on American rights) has gone far beyond any left/right, Dem/Rep, dichotomy. He is not America nor does he represent what is best about America. He is a virus, and a very virulent strain. He and his supporters are destroying any semblance of our once great nation. You phone your car your house your body, where if ever, does it stop? He is a buffoon and a dangerous one at that.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

The true patriot is the one who will not subject himself or allow his fellow man to be subjected to oppression of a corrupt and despotic regime. Viva la revolution.

Originally posted by RRconservative
The US government read soldiers mail in WW2. We were in a war then, and we are in a war now!

You people act like this is something new. It's not!

There's a huge difference there my friend. Soldiers are government property and as such can be searched, listened to and mail read. Now, being a private US citizen, the government does NOT own me, therefore they should NOT be able to do the things listed above.

Yes, it IS something new.

Originally posted by neformore
Its the kind of thing the US used to castigate the Soviets and Chinese for.

This is the truest thing I've heard yet on this thread. I remember hearing about what it was like in Russia and China growing up (only 20 years ago). Wire taps, mail being read etc. We all were like "what the crap, that could NEVER happen here, nor would we let it". Now, most Americans are all too happy to go down this slippery slope. What happened to our mentality in this country?

Originally posted by Griff

What happened to our mentality in this country?

It turned into, "As long as I'm fat and happy, you can do whatever you want...HEY...YOU'RE BLOCKING THE TV!!!"

I once wrote an Op/Ed that says everything I'd want to say on this issue.

I Once Dreamed Of Liberty

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by brill
So you've never gone 61 in a 60 zone ?

Sure.

Never taped a show,

Sure I have. So what? They aren't watching to see what I watch on TV and even if they were .. so what? Watching TV isn't illegal and what is on TV is there for anyone to see. If they want to know what I watch .. I'll tell them. (Top Chef ... Project Runway ... Reruns of comfort TV like 'That 70s Show). Told ya' I'm dull.

downloaded song,

Nope. Wouldn't know how. Even if I did, so what? If they want to know what I listen to, I'd tell them. (Creed, Nickelback, Coldplay, Evenscience ... )

I'm shocked that you would say chipping a person upsets you. These measures are a precursor to exactly that step.

Chipping invades my body. The others? I don't care about. But you may be right that these are a precursor to chipping .. but only time will tell. I think chipping is an entirely new area, but you may be right that they are slowly turning the heat up ... bit by bit .. so we don't notice when the heat comes up to full boil.

You've partially missed my point as I was rather vague. You stated in your original thread that you were not a criminal and subsequently had nothing to hide. Well going 61 in a 60 zone is technically breaking the law therefore you have committed a crime, albeit a very trivial one. I'm just trying to illustrate that insignificant items such as this 'could' be used against you in a society that is so heavily monitored (video, satellite, etc.) and that you may not be the innocent person you think you are.

I'm glad we agree that chipping is not a good thing

brill

Get a grip.

There are plenty of alternatives to the US Postal Service--FedEx, UPS, text message, email, Greyhound, telephone, courier.

Grady

Get a grip.

There are plenty of alternatives to the US Postal Service--FedEx, UPS, text message, email, Greyhound, telephone, courier.

Your own argument is its own worst enemy, Grady. The bad guys will continue to operate unmolested, while decent, hardworking American citizens find themselves increasingly at the mercy of a heartless, brainless bureaucracy.

If this administration, or the one before it, was serious about protecting us from terrorists, there are dozens of programs that could have been funded to help throw up layers of defense between the citizens and those who mean to do them harm.

Instead, we find ourselves still at the mercy of criminals, with open borders, vulnerable electrical grid and food/water supply, and all that with a more restrictive and totalitarian government that seems more intent on criminalizing and incarcerating citizens, and protecting/perpetuating itself than in preventing terrorist attacks or governing fairly.

In addition, billions of dollars in public money have gone to fatten politically-connected defense contractors who research, develop, and produce gizmos designed to fight last century's war, and we're told there isn't enough money to protect us. Worst of both worlds, if you ask me.

If we're going to be unprotected, while our government pokes sleeping tigers the world over, using a big pointy foreign policy stick, I would rather not pay for the privilege, thank you.



Perpetual war is good for business, but it's bad for freedom. This country was founded on notions of freedom that, while never fully realized, were awesome and worthy of your devotion.

I'm lucky, in that my mail, my email, and my phone conversations are insufferably boring and mundane. If the spooks want to know what I like on my pizza, they're more than welcome to find out - but goddamnit, not at the taxpayers' expense! If this administration, or any other, wants to conduct a private war, they can go right on ahead, but not with my life and not with my child's life, and not with my money.

Let them spend their own ill-gotten fortunes, if they really are as principled as they make themselves out to be.

They will never, in a million years, agree to a perpetual war against an invisible enemy under those conditions. Know why? Because they're not in it for freedom, they're in it for the money and the power that money buys.

More on-topic, what was wrong with getting a warrant? Is it because the judiciary is increasingly becoming wise to this sick joke and is less receptive than ever to pressure emnating from a diseased, power-mad government in self-preservation mode? I think that just might have something to do with it. 'Judges legislating from the bench' is newspeak for judges who refuse to roll over for the well-dressed criminals who currently occupy the highest offices of this nation.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
[Your own argument is its own worst enemy, Grady. The bad guys will continue to operate unmolested, while decent, hardworking American citizens find themselves increasingly at the mercy of a heartless, brainless bureaucracy.

What are these decent, hardworking American citizens sending through the mail that is so sensitive that they care if anyone looks at it? Do I have any reason to expect that out of the millions of pieces of mail handled on any given day that mine will deserve scrutiny? If it does, is there anything in my mail that would be illegal?

My answers are no and no.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Get a grip.

There are plenty of alternatives to the US Postal Service--FedEx, UPS, text message, email, Greyhound, telephone, courier.

I think you need a reality check

Have no never heard of Operation Shamrock? You have to be kidding if you think that your 'alternatives' are exempt from surveillance/monitoring.

brill

Grady

What are these decent, hardworking American citizens sending through the mail that is so sensitive that they care if anyone looks at it?

That's not the point, as I see it. An opaque, secretive government + a transparent citizenry is a recipe for unchecked disaster. Don't you value your privacy without a concrete example?

More and more I see the government set double standards - and there's no justification for that sort of hypocrisy-as-policy approach to governance.

Besides, what you're basically saying is that if you're not doing anything wrong you should not be worried about government intrusion into privacy. That argument doesn't wash, for one main reason - just because you're not a criminal today doesn't mean a thing tommorow, if a new law or a new signing statement decides to criminalize a behavior you engage in.

Ever read about the early days and weeks of prohibition? Can you imagine? How about the red scare? All of a sudden, having a political view was cause for harrassment, arrest, detention, even death! What about the day being Japanese became a crime in this country? Jesus man...

Do I have any reason to expect that out of the millions of pieces of mail handled on any given day that mine will deserve scrutiny? If it does, is there anything in my mail that would be illegal?

NO! That's the point, we're the victims of terrorism, not the terrorists, why the Hell are we the focus of all their efforts?!

I think that when you use a government agency to transfer material from one point to another, you basically give up some privacy rights. I don't think that has ever changed.

I do remember that in the sixties that some people had been prosecuted for writing erotic messages to their spouses in the mail because of obscenity laws and that caused for quite a stir at the time.

Currently, we are in a state of war and the threat of further terrorist attacks makes security a very important matter.

I now know that if I send something by USPS that it is subject to a search. I can make the determination beforehand to use USPS or to use some alternative method or to not send anything at all.

I don't have a problem with this measure at this time.

What can really be done about it? If most of the country refuses to rebel, what are the alternatives?

Could Americans who do not want to go along with this just create a mass exodus to another country? How would one go about moving to another country? Where would anyone start in doing something about this problem?

Problem seems very huge. Must be some alternatives?

I've read this thread several times and I can see both points of view. On the one hand I'm not thrilled with some one else reading my mail; however, it is equally true that I have nothing to hide. Matter of fact I lead a very boring life; you know working all the time. I can understand that this very well could be the top of a slippery slope towards losing our freedom. However, the point has also been made that times make security a top priority. I believe that we must watch this very carefully and hold the government accountable for their actions by becoming politically active and keeping informed.

This signing statement thing has gone too far. It is time for a constitutional amendment redefining SCOTUS jurisdiction, allowing a "case or controversy" from any citizen to be presumed when a law or other official declaration of any kind from the federal government asserts a potential challenge to constitutional rights.

I for one am not interested in waiting until after the fact, dependent on them being caught with their hand in the cookie-jar before my rights are protected.