Bush approves warrantless opening of mail (Wake up you acolyte sheep)

"People" aren't just giving up their rights... they are being taken from them by a president/dictator who is abusing his authority to use "executive signing statements". He has no authority to re-write the law and more than the public, I'm pissed that our elected officials, the ones WE ELECT to protect our rights and serve us, allow Bush to completely run roughshod on the constitution!

Signing Statement

There is an ongoing controversy concerning the extensive use of signing statements to modify the meaning of laws by President George W. Bush. In July 2006, a task force of the American Bar Association described the use of signing statements to modify the meaning of duly enacted laws as "contrary to the rule of law and our constitutional system of separation of powers".[1]

Since when did we give the president to write the laws? It's time this "power" be taken back. This government was created on the basis of a system of checks and balances... a system that has been completely circumvented by Bush through a loophole called "executive signing statements". A loophole which needs to be closed now before the system is destroyed.

edit: I stand corrected. Looks like people are willing to give up their rights...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
THAT is the one that would have me upset. The others? I don't really care about. If 'they' want to listen to my phone calls, read my emails, read my snail mail .... whatever. I don't break the law and I'm not a terrorist. I'm dull and my phone calls would put anyone listening to sleep!

[edit on 4-1-2007 by mecheng]

Ahhhhhh .... but you see, you were never as 'free' nor your life as uninterfered with as you appear to believe.

This didn't happen in the past ten or five years.

Have you forgotten the Cold War charade?

Have you forgotten the Pearl Harbour charade?

Have you forgotten the Civil War charade?

The War of Independence charade?

The Russian Revolution charade?

The French Revolution charade?

etc.

But what has NEVER altered (or needed to, given humans' credulity) is the Carrot and Stick methodolgy of those who control and run our lives and ALWAYS have.

Those who lived during WW1 and WW2 believed it was critical.
They gave up their lives ---- once more, supposedly for FREEDOM.


It is ALWAYS presented to the credulous as a Fight for Freedom and a Fight for the Good and Benefit of Mankind !

Gee. When will we LEARN ?

WHEN we will refuse to be MANIPULATED ?



But the answer is clear.

It's because we have a predictably brief lifespan -- less than 100 years.

And it's because by the time it reaches us, History has been altered, 'revised', 'rewritten', falsified. That's if we could be bothered referring to history of course.

All anyone needs to do in order to get a handle on our current situation (religious and other) is conduct a very casual study of marketing/advertising.

It's all there, laid out for us to see.

' Sale priced'. ' Buy Now!'

' Our competitors are liars and cheats --- TRUST US ! Trust OUR brand !

' If you buy from our competitors, you'll get a bad deal. Your item will break and injure you. Our competitors cannot be trusted. Only WE can be trusted to safeguard you and your family. WE will not let you down. Give your money to us ! ' and so on.

Fashion trends come and go.

A few decades ago, 'Communisim' was all the rage.
Politicians WARNED us about the EVILS of 'commies'. (Trust US, not our competitors, who are evil and bad and will hurt you).

People's 'Freedoms' were restricted then, too, because governments had to 'seek out' those evil 'commies' who were hiding in every office and suburb, etc.

Then the Stick part of Carrot and Stick wore thin, re: 'Communism'.

So 'communisim' was rendered obsolete.

And a NEW trend emerged in the Carrot and Stick regime --- that of 'Terrorists' and 'Muslims'.

And that will be trotted out until it's lost it's novelty and 'scare power'.

At which point, a NEW 'bogey-man' will be manufactured. Take your pick.

Although one thing you can be sure of is ---- the new bogey-man has ALREADY been decided upon and lies waiting in the wings, complete with dastardly deeds that Mossad and other agents will conduct to effectively 'scare' populations to accept this yet-to-be-announced bogey-man.

Future populations (as now) will ALSO offer up their sons as cannon-fodder in this yet-to-take-place manufactured-enemy of future generations and War for Freedom !

'They' decide upon the timing of future wars far in advance. They select the 'enemy' that will be used to control populations at the same time populations are ruthlessly decreased AND at the same time 'they' (predictably) reap even more obscene profit from the shed blood and shattered limbs.

We really need to cease being so stupidly naive.

But of course, we'd need to refer to history in order to appreciate how one generation after another is handed a new 'enemy' VIA WHICH GOVERNMENTS OF THE FUTURE WILL TERRIFY FUTURE GENERATIONS.

As to Bush ..... good grief. He's just an instrument, a pawn.

He doensn't MAKE DECISIONS that affect you !

He's just the mouthpiece used by the ACTUAL bad-guys.

Bush is as much victim to this current situation as you are.

And he most probably knows EVEN LESS about what's going on than you do !

Don't fear Bush.

Instead -------- FIND OUT WHO controls HIM. Find out who has their arm up his backside, working his mouth like a ventriliquist's dummy.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by spines
It is only a chip in your body...

THAT is the one that would have me upset. The others? I don't really care about. If 'they' want to listen to my phone calls, read my emails, read my snail mail .... whatever. I don't break the law and I'm not a terrorist. I'm dull and my phone calls would put anyone listening to sleep!

That is my point though: It is with each small freedom and issue of privacy that you freely give up that the issue becomes worse.

One leads to the other and if each is able to pass without any sign of opposition then more and more is taken.

Like sheep to the slaughter I suppose.

Originally posted by mecheng
It's time this "power" be taken back.
[edit on 4-1-2007 by mecheng]

If you're thinking of starting an uprising or revolution give us a shout lol i'm getting a bit bored over here.

Seriously though, how far do you think this kind of stuff can go before people will actually start to challenge it? And by challenge it I mean physically, not just posting messages on internet forums.

Originally posted by malganis
Seriously though, how far do you think this kind of stuff can go before people will actually start to challenge it? And by challenge it I mean physically, not just posting messages on internet forums.

I thought, as did many Americans, that the November vote, which ousted many Republicans and voted in a Democratic congress was a signal to this administration that we've had enough. Apperantly they don't care and worse yet it looks like the Democrats we voted in to replace them are actually siding with them. What can you do when within the forst couple days of being elected the Democrats say impeachment is taken off the table???

It almost seems like its a race to push us to the brink before we "wake up" and its too late. Who knows, maybe the only way to change things is to do it forcefully because it sure looks like using the system isn't working. Question is will people be willing to go that far. I say not.

Originally posted by mecheng
I thought, as did many Americans, that the November vote, which ousted many Republicans and voted in a Democratic congress was a signal to this administration that we've had enough.

The who does not matter at this point. The faces change but the abuse of power and sterilization of personal rights/freedoms stays the same.

"The President asserted his new authority when he signed a postal reform bill into law on "

Wow, hatred can make people blind. To sign a bill into a law, means that congress introduced a draft of that bill, then both Houses voted on it and it passed . Am I the only person who watched School House Rock( I'm just a bill, sitting here on Capitol Hill)?? This isn't a one man's grab for power. If someone wants to make the New World Order arguement, fine, but saying it's all BUSH, BUSH, BUSH is just wrong.

www.nalc.org...

www.apwu.org...

Both links are from Unions.

Originally posted by spines
[Like sheep to the slaughter I suppose.

Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaa Seriously .. Im not breaking any laws and I'm rather dull. I would NOT accept a chip, but the rest??? It's happening and there isn't anything I can do about it. But I'm not a criminal so I guess they can see whatever they want and I don't care.

Sorry .. but unless it's a chip .. I'm not uptight about it.

Baaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaa

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by dgtempe
I HOLD THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY EQUALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR ALLOWING THIS.

I'm sure Hillary (who WILL be president in 08) is overjoyed at the prospect of being able to open everyone's mail. Especially us 'rosary prayers' .. she said we stay at home moms who pray the rosary to end abortion are .. TERRORISTS.

Yes, I'm sure the dems will take full advantage of this in 2008.

That being said .. they won't find anything interesting in my mail if they decide to open it. Kinda dull.

First off, this entire post really has nothing to do with the topic at hand....

All you have done is mudsling someone who you obviously do not like, not to mention make generalizations about a political party....

You finally addressed the topic with your last statement, and might I add, with no insight into the matter whatsoever....

Personally, I feel your post is worthy of a warning, but I am not a moderator..

Enough of my own off topic ramblings...

This is just another step in the wrong direction. Sure, the sheep may not have a problem with someone in the government peeking through their mail, but I do. I am an American. Just because YOU do not have a problem with it DOES NOT give you the right to disregard someone else's right to not accept this infringement. If you choose to live under a cloak of deception, go ahead. They can look through all of YOUR mail that they want. Don't give me the typical "If you don't have anything to hide, then what is the problem?" response. It is NOT about that. It is about give and take. It's how much you are willing to give compared to how much you just let them take. These are the same people that are supposed to protect my interests and represent my intentions.

If I rambled through someone's mail, I would be put in jail. Why should it be different for ANYONE that is an American citizen? OHHHH! They work for the government....WOOOO! There are laws that protect people's privacy for a reason.

Soon, they will take away every right we have in the name of TERRORISM. BOO! GRARR! BE AFRAID!

Originally posted by DCP
"The President asserted his new authority when he signed a postal reform bill into law on "

Wow, hatred can make people blind. To sign a bill into a law, means that congress introduced a draft of that bill, then both Houses voted on it and it passed . Am I the only person who watched School House Rock( I'm just a bill, sitting here on Capitol Hill)?? This isn't a one man's grab for power. If someone wants to make the New World Order arguement, fine, but saying it's all BUSH, BUSH, BUSH is just wrong.

www.nalc.org...

www.apwu.org...

Both links are from Unions.

It's not the Bill... its his executive signing statement which states:

The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the Act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

President's Statement on H.R. 6407, the "Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act

It's his continued abuse of power by rewriting laws throught the use of sigining statements that I'm pissed about. He rewrites laws with no system of checks and balances.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by spines
[Like sheep to the slaughter I suppose.

Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaa

Seriously .. Im not breaking any laws and I'm rather dull. I would NOT accept a chip, but the rest??? It's happening and there isn't anything I can do about it. But I'm not a criminal so I guess they can see whatever they want and I don't care.

Sorry .. but unless it's a chip .. I'm not uptight about it.

Baaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaa

Like I said, slowly taking inch by inch is the way in which you religuish your freedoms.

Start slow and introduce whatever it is you want to as time and gained space allows.

The US government read soldiers mail in WW2. We were in a war then, and we are in a war now!

You people act like this is something new. It's not!

Originally posted by RRconservative
The US government read soldiers mail in WW2. We were in a war then, and we are in a war now!

You people act like this is something new. It's not!

Does that fact make it right? Does the reading of mail over 50 years ago make it less of an invasion of privacy?

For clarification, the part of this legislation mentioned in the presidential statement states the following:

SEC. 1010. TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENTS.

(e) AUTHORITY TO FIX RATES AND CLASSES GENERALLY; REQUIREMENT RELATING TO LETTERS SEALED AGAINST INSPECTION- Section 404 of title 39, United States Code (as amended by section 102) is further amended by redesignating subsections (b) and (c) as subsections (d) and (e), respectively, and by inserting after subsection (a) the following:

`(c) The Postal Service shall maintain one or more classes of mail for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection. The rate for each such class shall be uniform throughout the United States, its territories, and possessions. One such class shall provide for the most expeditious handling and transportation afforded mail matter by the Postal Service. No letter of such a class of domestic origin shall be opened except under authority of a search warrant authorized by law, or by an officer or employee of the Postal Service for the sole purpose of determining an address at which the letter can be delivered, or pursuant to the authorization of the addressee.'.

Source: Library of Congress: Thomas (see [H.R.6407.ENR] and look for SEC. 1010. TECHNICAL AND CONFORMING AMENDMENTS) (bold print added by me for clarity.)

The presidential interpretation of this law at issue is as follows:

The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the Act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

Source: Presidential statement regarding interpretation of the act (bold print added by me for clarity.)

I am no legal expert and lack the expertise and knowledge necessary to be certain, however, it would appear that the executive branch intends to interpret this law as allowing sealed domestic mail to be searched in cases where the protection of human life and safety against hazardous materials would be served by doing so, when to the contrary, the legislation clearly states that "No letter of such a class of domestic origin shall be opened except under authority of a search warrant authorized by law, or by an officer or employee of the Postal Service for the sole purpose of determining an address at which the letter can be delivered, or pursuant to the authorization of the addressee."

I am not a stereotypical Bush-basher, nor do I automatically respond with alarm at the first hint of legislative rule bending. I strive to keep an open mind as free of preconceptions as I can in these matters. However, in this case, failing some legal knowledge I lack (which is certainly more than possible,) I must concede that there appears to be a clear contradiction between the legislative language used, and the executive interpretation thereof.

Originally posted by Dock6


" S

Otherwise, I'll be compelled to believe that this planet AND its afterlife are all contained within one molecule of excreta expelled by 'something', 'somewhere'.

Way off topic with this response, but I feel I should mention it:

Im going to reccomend something to you (or to me? ha ha get it?) It's the new 3 DVD set of What the Bleep. A documentary on Quantum Mechanics/Physics/Spirituality and everything you want to know about the universe.

After I saw this movie I didn't worry as much as where I was in my life or where I was going. This movie was revolutionary in it's scope to bring to the masses in such a startling and uncompromising way. It's universal, you can be anybody in anyplace at anytime.

The professional scholars professors/scientists/mystics/ will blow your mind into that anything is possible moment.

Create your day" is probably one of the most important lessons for everyone on this planet if it truly works.

Enough talking.

Go to deepdiscountdvd dot com and get the set. It's free shipping included if you buy it from this outlet. One of my favorite places to get Media.


Anyways here's create your day part of the film:

The most often referenced interview in the film is Dr. Joe Dispenza's comments on creating his day. In response to the numerous requests, the following is the transcript of that part of the interview.

"I wake up in the morning and I consciously create my day the way I want it to happen. Now sometimes, because my mind is examining all the things that I need to get done, it takes me a little bit to settle down and get to the point of where I'm actually intentionally creating my day. But here's the thing: When I create my day and out of nowhere little things happen that are so unexplainable, I know that they are the process or the result of my creation. And the more I do that, the more I build a neural net in my brain that I accept that that's possible. (This) gives me the power and the incentive to do it the next day.

"So if we're consciously designing our destiny, and if we're consciously from a spiritual standpoint throwing in with the idea that our thoughts can affect our reality or affect our life -- because reality equals life -- then I have this little pact that I have when I create my day. I say, 'I'm taking this time to create my day and I'm infecting the quantum field. Now if (it) is in fact the observer's watching me the whole time that I'm doing this and there is a spiritual aspect to myself, then show me a sign today that you paid attention to any one of these things that I created, and bring them in a way that I won't expect, so I'm as surprised at my ability to be able to experience these things. And make it so that I have no doubt that it's come from you,' and so I live my life, in a sense, all day long thinking about being a genius or thinking about being the glory and the power of God or thinking about being unconditional love.

"I'll use living as a genius, for example. And as I do that during parts of the day, I'll have thoughts that are so amazing, that cause a chill in my physical body, that have come from nowhere. But then I remember that that thought has an associated energy that's produced an effect in my physical body. Now that's a subjective experience, but the truth is is that I don't think that unless I was creating my day to have unlimited thought, that that thought would come."

and there are those who still deny that USA is now a facist state, Bush-Hitler comparisons don't look so over-the-top

Bush, however, cited "exigent circumstances" which could refer to an imminent danger or a longstanding state of emergency.

Here is something. About 10 years ago I was offered, by a retired banker who was working with off shore accounts. My friend at the time said that there was a load of money being traded off shore and if you could invest $100,000.00, it would be possible to turn it into $1,000,000.00 in no time, with returns of 17% or more every time you traded your money. This could be done more than once a week...even several times a day.

This sounds fantastic and not possible. Yet I am sure others in here have heard about this before. Please confirm, if you can.

Now if the US has lost 4.7 Trillion dollars trying to topple the Russians power, wouldn"t they want to look in peoples mail to try and find out where the money went. Try to access information of people with suspected off shore accounts without them knowing.

"exigent circumstances"???? The collapse of the USD, because the value in the USD has been striped out by greedy people.

The stage is set, the performers are waiting in line and all that is left is for you to sit and watch what you have been warned about play itself out.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
I am no legal expert ...it would appear that the executive branch intends to interpret this law as allowing sealed domestic mail to be searched in cases where the protection of human life and safety against hazardous materials would be served by doing so..

No, this is another invasion of our privacy in the name of the war on terrorism...

which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

Originally posted by mecheng

Originally posted by AceWombat04
I am no legal expert ...it would appear that the executive branch intends to interpret this law as allowing sealed domestic mail to be searched in cases where the protection of human life and safety against hazardous materials would be served by doing so..

No, this is another invasion of our privacy in the name of the war on terrorism...

which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

I intentionally refrained from touching on this point because it could technically be argued that because the words "specifically authorized by law" in respect to the third "exigent circumstance" could mean that the latter would only be construed as permissible if legislative authority to do so had already been granted. I am trying to be as open minded as possible and avoid getting into conflict with those who will no doubt disagree that this is a negative development. (That doesn't mean that I, myself, am not concerned, or that I disagree with you.)

I fully concur, however - failing, as I said, some legal knowledge I might lack - that this is troubling, and that there appears to be genuine contradiction between the intent of the legislation, and the executive interpretation thereof.

Hmmm.. I wonder if this has anything to do with the White House Legal Counsel resigning today? No news feeds seem to be carrying it yet, but you can see a mention of it in this Wikipedia article.

en.wikipedia.org...