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the unforgivable sin?

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posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by NowAmFound
Why do you think it is ridiculous that there is an unforgiveable sin?


well, in the context of christianity
where we are told there is an omnibenevolent deity
OMNIbenevolent
that means, 100% disposed to doing good

now, why do i think that it's ridiculous
having someone who leads a saintly life
does more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history
but simply denies the existence of the holy spirit
goes to HELL
even if (s)he repents for doing so later on in life

anyway, this is only 1 of the many doctrines i have a problem with in christianity

[edit on 1/4/07 by madnessinmysoul]




posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by NowAmFound
Why do you think it is ridiculous that there is an unforgiveable sin?


well, in the context of christianity
where we are told there is an omnibenevolent deity
OMNIbenevolent
that means, 100% disposed to doing good

now, why do i think that it's ridiculous
having someone who leads a saintly life
does more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history
but simply denies the existence of the holy spirit
goes to HELL
even if (s)he repents for doing so later on in life

anyway, this is only 1 of the many doctrines i have a problem with in christianity

[edit on 1/4/07 by madnessinmysoul]


Hi madnessinmysoul/
On your death bed(and we dont know when this will be)you can ask for forgiveness and repent........the Holy Spirit is likened to our Soul,it was given to us by God and later will be Judged by God.
You cannot pick and choose of what is written.
To deny the Holy Spirit is to deny the existence of who Jesus Christ is!
He said.....
Babtise all in the name of the Father,Son and Holy spirit.
Why is it that Jesus Christ got babtised from S.John the Babtist?
It is in order to show us that we too, are to be babtised in the same way.
Why did He elect Apostles?
So that they too, can follow in His way......all this is not NEW,but a fullfilment of the Old Testament.
All the things that happened in the Old Testament , were fullfilled in the New Testament.
Jesus Christ came and He was not accepted by the priests because they thought He would be a threat to them.
They believed in John the Babtist and his prophecies, but when the time came for them to accept the prophecy fullfilled, they rejected their own God.
To deny the Holy Spirit, is to deny Jeus Christ and who He is.
Without this, you cannot be a Christian, although you may live a Christian life and all,having good morals etc......It will be up to God to Judge of what is to happen in such circumstance.
Mere mortals we are and cannot judge what is to happen to each of us at 'Judgement Day'......The Apocalypse(Revelation) tells us that we are to find out what will happen toward the end of times,till then, we are to be faithful followers, and if we fall(and we do)we are to pick ourselves up and keep going onto the right path.

My computer keeps shutting off, so Ill get back later.......



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Still another theory I've heard is that it is calling the acts of the Holy Spirit evil.



Mark 3:22-29
22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.


Wow, have I screwed up bigtime in interpreting that one.


Mark 3:29 shows precisely what Jesus meant every time he mentioned blaspheming the HOLY GHOST. If someone is in the spiritual state to where they willingly blaspheme the HOLY GHOST, they have no forgiveness at that time because they don't know him. Naturally, anyone who doesn't know Jesus Christ is indeed in danger of eternal damnation no matter what they say or do.

In that case it wasn't the statement they made against him that had them in danger of eternal damnation, it was the fact that they were lost to begin with which was the reason they said what they did.

The scribes who accused Jesus of using satan to shuffle demons around, could very well be forgiven right now and saved if they turned from their ways before they died and accepted him for who he is.

This makes selling one's soul absolutely impossible.

[edit] well besides taking the mark that is...

[edit on 5-1-2007 by WiseSheep]



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 02:16 AM
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I thought I'd throw in my understanding of the unpardonable sin.

To commit the unpardonble sin, you have to do a few things.

First, you need to know the Holy Spirit or witness something miraculous (like Jesus casting out demons). It has to be something you know can be nothing other than divine. Then you need to say that it is not divine but Satan/evil that is doing these things, and do it for the purpose of damaging other people's faith or to try to sway them away from God.

It's kind of like me coming on ATS and insisting that the sky is green when I know it's blue; all for no other reason than to be spiteful. Well not quite like that, but it's pretty hard to come up with an analogy for this.

How 'bout this one - If a minister was to get on the pulpit and tell everyone in his congregation that the Bible was written by Satan and that all of us are going to Hell for doing what it says - when he knows that's not true.



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 08:22 AM
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I suspect the concept of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was introduced in post-Athanasian versions of the New Testament to secure belief in the new Trinitarian doctrine. Most of the statements attributed to Jesus in the Bible were heavily edited, amended and distorted to make them support the doctrines developed by the Church Fathers in the first few centuries A.D.

In other words, the concept of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is just propaganda for a point of view.

Incidentally, if you really want to know what this mysterious sin really is, I believe the Catholic Church has defined it tightly enough to be able to state that a certain chapter of Finnegan's Wake contains it. Maybe some Catholic web site explains it all. Sorry, but I can't be bothered to look.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by Astyanax]



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I thought I'd throw in my understanding of the unpardonable sin.

It's kind of like me coming on ATS and insisting that the sky is green when I know it's blue; all for no other reason than to be spiteful. Well not quite like that, but it's pretty hard to come up with an analogy for this.

How 'bout this one - If a minister was to get on the pulpit and tell everyone in his congregation that the Bible was written by Satan and that all of us are going to Hell for doing what it says - when he knows that's not true.


Agreed Duzey,which is why i said earlier i cannot stretch my imagination to the type of person who could or would.Thanks for simplifying it with those examples.



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 04:13 PM
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Thanks. I wasn't sure if they made sense to anyone but myself.


Which brings me back to this point:


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
having someone who leads a saintly life
does more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history
but simply denies the existence of the holy spirit
goes to HELL

The simple act of not believing in God is nowhere near enough to commit the unpardonable sin. In fact, you can't commit the unpardonable sin if you don't believe. Even if God came to your house for dinner and you told Him you didn't believe in Him to his face, that still wouldn't be enough to commit it.



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 06:27 PM
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It is taught, even in Buddhism, that Christ can forgive karma.


However, sin against the Holy Spirit as known in the East, is Karmasaya and Kamaduro; which must be payed through suffering.

And unfortunately, almost all of us have a whole lot of it to pay.



posted on Jan, 6 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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madness:

The whole denial thing is about not repenting. I think you find this issue ridiculous because you are working off a faulty understanding of it. Besides, I don't think that someone who does more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history could reject the Holy Spirit.



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 10:32 AM
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I like nowamfound's explanation.

Doctrine aside, I've always felt the holy ghost to be a feminine aspect of the God-hood. Or passive aspect, like the fabric of forgiveness and grace. It would be without active defense - in that being rejected, there is no recourse.

I find it interesting that we have all these appearances of Mary, or Our Lady from the Heavens - at this time in history, pleading for the rosary to be prayed for the forgiveness of sins.

It seems now there abounds in great numbers eschatology and philosophy that breeds hopelessness and contempt and feeds the might is right doctrine.

The holy ghost is a seemingly frail defense against such loud and overwhelming dogma. Easy to dismiss and disregard. However, when someone does do that, it seems it's their own hearts they harden.

There are many seeking to extinguish the light at this time.

[edit on 7-1-2007 by clearwater]



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by NowAmFound
I don't think that someone who does more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history could reject the Holy Spirit.


well, that's a faulty assertion
gandhi did more good for the world than a lot of people, and he in many ways rejected the holy spirit in the way that he rejected doctrinal explainations of spirituality
einstein did a lot of good for the world, he rejected the idea of the holy spirit
bill gates, world's leading philanthropist, rejects the holy spirit
etc


Originally posted by Tamahu
It is taught, even in Buddhism, that Christ can forgive karma.


really, because i was a buddhist for over a year
and "christ" never came up in any of the teachings...
care to back it up?

[edit on 1/7/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Madness:

Your difficulty with this issue and with many is that you view the world with a complete abscense of objectivity. Neither Gandhi, Einstein, nor Bill Gates has done more good for the world than anyone else in all of human history. Furthermore, you don't know if any of them rejected the Holy Spirit. In fact, you still are confused about what that means!



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 01:01 PM
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well, i named 2 atheists and someone who believes in a unified god being...

i'm pretty sure that would constitute 3 people who don't believe in the existence of the holy spirit



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 01:16 PM
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As I mentioned earlier, if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you cannot commit the unpardonable sin.



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
As I mentioned earlier, if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you cannot commit the unpardonable sin.


um, i may be wrong here
but not believing in something is denying it
is that not true of the word deny

i deny the existence of the holy spirit
i do not believe in the existence of the holy spirit

it's the same



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
really, because i was a buddhist for over a year
and "christ" never came up in any of the teachings...
care to back it up?



Yes.

If we study Kabbalah, we can start to understand how this is so.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in Kabbalah: Kether, Chokmah and Binah; and in Buddhism are the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya.



So, in regard to the Three Jewels of Buddhism:


Secret: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya

Inner: Guru, Yidam, Dakini

Outer: Buddha, Dharma, Sangha


In Gnostic Kabbalah, The Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So Esoterically, any Buddha who is a direct emanation of of the Tri-Kaya, is an aspect of the Christ(i.e. Amitabha, Avalokitesvara, Kuan-Yin, Vajrasattva, Guru Rinpoche, etc.)





Regards



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
As I mentioned earlier, if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you cannot commit the unpardonable sin.




It has nothing to do with belief.


People are doing it everyday:




Originally posted by Tamahu
It is taught, even in Buddhism, that Christ can forgive karma.


However, sin against the Holy Spirit as known in the East, is Karmasaya and Kamaduro; which must be payed through suffering.

And unfortunately, almost all of us have a whole lot of it to pay.







Karmasaya

"If a woman leaves her spouse, then, she is not free from him, neither is he free from her, since, when a marital union is already established, this remains for the whole of eternity." - Occult Medicine and Practical Magic by Samael Aun Weor

The ego is a mental substance. It takes various forms. These forms constitute conditions. It is transformed with the sexual force. These sexual transformations or modifications are the thought-waves, whirlpools or conditions of the mind. Through Adultery the ego causes psychosomatic bonds, the karmic effect to this psychosomatic cause is formed in the mind. This effect will settle and another condition will be formed when it becomes involved with another mate. Countless conditions arose and subsided in our mind throughout many life times. These conditions cause psychosomatic restlessness. Why do psychosomatic conditions arise? Because of Return and recurrence; if we annihilate all egos, all conditions will disappear by themselves.

When a sexual psychosomatic condition settles it leaves a definite psychosomatic sexual impression in the subconscious mind. This is known as psychosomatic or latent sexual impression.

The psychosomatic latent sexual impression creates "Karmasaya" or a receptacle for karmic effects. This is called none negotiable Karma. When the ego leaves the physical body, he carries with him this negative karma related with Karmasaya as well, to the mental plane. This Karmasaya can only be paid by a greatest psychosomatic Suffering through initiation.

"Positive values bring health and joy. Negative values materialize themselves into sicknesses and bitterness. Variola is the result of hatred. Cancer is the result of fornication. Lies disfigure the human figure, thus engendering monstrous children. Egotism in its extreme produces Leprosy. A person is born blind because of past cruelties. Tuberculosis is the daughter of atheism. Therefore, each human defect is venom for the organism." - Occult Medicine and Practical Magic by Samael Aun Weor


Kamaduro

Kamaduro is the result of conflict between the divine fire and the flaming desires of the mind. The poisonus emanations that are generated by the poisonous sulfur (lust) bring into action unbridled energy, Kamaduro. In other words, the psychosomatic nature of the individual is not in harmony with divine fire (INRI). The divine fire seeks to reconcile the disparate psychosomatic elements, but desire paralyzes the divine fire, and then Kamaduro occurs.



ENS NATURE







You see?





[edit on 7-1-2007 by Tamahu]



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
jesus seems to be a really nice guy, he'll forgive you for anything
he'll even forgive you for denying his existence

Mark 3:28

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme


WITH 1 EXCEPTION

Mark 3:29


But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.


From your original post Madness.

Where does it say disbelief is blasphemous,somewhere along the line you have changed it to denying the holy Spirit and creating confusion to yourself.

As Duzey well put it one would have to know it(receive it) to then slander it wantonly which could be considered blasphemous and who can be the judge of that other than you and God alone.

Can you say you have done this?

I doubt it very much,reason being people look for any and all excuses to not believe,if one had received at one or more times the Holy Spirit you would not be able to deny the experience truly to yourself and those excuses (eg as you might put it,inconsistencies,inaccuracies)would mean little when knowingly having a relationship with God with the aid of the Holy Spirit would put those things that prevent you from believing in a different light,as in you would seek the answers asking Gods help,not as reasons as to not believe in Him.



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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wouldn't it be absolutely blasphemous to deny the very existence of something?

isn't heresy a form of blashphemy?



posted on Jan, 7 2007 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
wouldn't it be absolutely blasphemous to deny the very existence of something?



Not if you dont believe in it,you would be only honest to yourself,thats better than lying to yourself that it does exist to try and fit in for instance when you believe otherwise.

Even though God does exist as does Christ and the Holy Spirit.He knows whether your true to Him and yourself or not,which is one of the reasons some receive it and know and others not.

[edit on 7-1-2007 by gps777]



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